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200NL - flop bottom straight

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  1. #1

    Default 200NL - flop bottom straight

    Table is fairly loose pre-flop. Mostly regular players but haven't played a lot of hands with villain. I'm in CO with 89s

    UTG (big stack, ~600) raises to 10
    two MP call (stacks ~200/~100)
    CO (me, 89s, ~225) calls
    Dealer/SB/BB fold

    (Pot $43)

    Flop comes 10JQr, bottom straight for me

    UTG bets 30
    Folded to me...I shove.

    Should I play this differently? At this point I can put him on anything...

    It's unlikely he has nothing (too much on the board for him to think he can steal with 3 behind).

    Beyond that he could have anything. Two pair/trips/top pair/nuts. A reraise would get him off top pair, but his stacks big enough (and mine small enough) that a reraise wouldn't likely get him off of two pair/set and I don't want to see a turn/river. If he has AK/K9 beat me outright and I won't get him off either (if he has K9 it's impossible for me to rep AK since I was CO preflop and didn't reraise). Then again, I shove and it's an easy decision for him.
    Last edited by casual1; 02-11-2013 at 03:28 PM.
  2. #2
    Welcome to the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by casual1 View Post
    A reraise would get him off top pair, but his stacks big enough (and mine small enough) that a reraise wouldn't likely get him off of two pair/set and I don't want to see a turn/river.
    I may have understood this incorrectly but are you trying to say that you would prefer him to fold his pairs / two pairs / sets?
  3. #3
    UTG raise? You're drawing dead to AK (yes, you could runner-runner chop) and beating sets and two pair. Still, AK is squarely in his range, K9 unlikely.

    Shove on the flop seems spewy because you're not getting any value out of the hands you're beating (AQ, two pair). Raise to 60-75 seems ok to get value out of two pair and maybe AQ, if he has a set it's all going in regardless, so no need to shove.

    Question for the board: would any of you just flat the flop? If villain shoves the turn, can you ever find a fold here? 100BB deep, I think you just let it play out, yes?
  4. #4
    rpm's Avatar
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    my first thought was to raise to $75 and shove most turns, and that's almost certainly what i'd do in play. but his continuing range vs a flop raise actually has to be kind of wide, definitely wider than i thought, for raising to be correct. if he calls our raise with TT+,AQs+,AQo+,KQo this gives us about 50% equity. so if he ever folds AQ/KQ then raising is a bit thin. i think i'd almost prefer to flat-call and get it in on non-A/K/9 turn cards (because we do far better vs the sets in his range on the turn than on the flop, and he will probably commit his stack with them).
    Last edited by rpm; 02-13-2013 at 04:14 AM.
  5. #5
    rpm's Avatar
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    also, if you do raise the flop (which could well be the best play, i'm still unsure) then i think raising to $75 is definitely better than shoving. he will likely fold everything but sets and AK if we shove. against that we only have 25% equity. even adding in AA/KK only takes us up to 40%. i think our opponent will make more mistakes vs a $75 raise than a shove. it puts KQ/AQ/KK/AA in a tough spot

    these may sound like weird questions but,
    is UTG young or old?
    male or female?
    look like they have spent a lot of time at a poker table (in their handling of cards/chips/dealers etc)
    talkative/quiet?
    friendly/serious?
    Last edited by rpm; 02-13-2013 at 04:15 AM.
  6. #6
    i like the bomb, too many cards that kill action. how much money is he going to put in OTT after you raise when he has AQ?

    why is it better to let the set see a turn cheaper? it doesn't sound like you are folding if the board pairs. he'll just fold sometimes when we're 75/25, probably correctly.
  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    i like the bomb, too many cards that kill action. how much money is he going to put in OTT after you raise when he has AQ?

    why is it better to let the set see a turn cheaper? it doesn't sound like you are folding if the board pairs. he'll just fold sometimes when we're 75/25, probably correctly.
    this
  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    i like the bomb, too many cards that kill action. how much money is he going to put in OTT after you raise when he has AQ?

    why is it better to let the set see a turn cheaper? it doesn't sound like you are folding if the board pairs. he'll just fold sometimes when we're 75/25, probably correctly.
    while there are quite a few cards which kill action vs the part of his range we beat, by raising aren't we asking for more action than our hand can handle given villain's position/line? i could be way off though. i think i want to see a picture of this villain and use that to decide
  9. #9
    rpm's Avatar
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    actually, i'm curious: how would you guys play this vs a quiet, friendly 55+ year old white male as compared to a ~25y.o dude with dyed hair, a backwards cap, watch, and some trendy colourful branded t-shirt? any different?
  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post

    why is it better to let the set see a turn cheaper? it doesn't sound like you are folding if the board pairs. he'll just fold sometimes when we're 75/25, probably correctly.
    this point was my main trouble. i felt like jamming flop has us getting it in vs AK and sets. if we call and see a turn, the sets have lost 1/2 their equity a lot of the time, and we get to see villain make one more decision, so i felt we can better guage our true equity in the pot. that probably doesn't make any sense though. i'm kind of confused about how i should be thinking about this
  11. #11
    I think rpm is on the right path here: isn't this a case of range manipulation? Shoving the flop folds out a lot of what we're beating. If Villain has TP, two pair, we can get more value if we raise less while still giving bad odds to draw out. If he has AK (or a set), doesn't matter what we do, it's all going in, so no need to worry about raise size for that part of Villain's range.
  12. #12
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    I'd probably raise in the heat of the moment.

    That said, I like calling to see if he goes crazy trying to protect a one pair hand.
  13. #13
    we are 75/25 vs KQ, AQ, QJ, QT. if you make it 75, he has to call 45 into 43+30+30 = 103. maybe it's a mistake but it is small. whatever he has, it almost has to play better OTT/R than our hand does.

    So I like calling better than the small raise.

    But i'd shove, put on your best Q9 face.

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