Blufing in 6max

Quote:
because you have to bluff in 6max

Actually you should bluff LESS in 6-max.

People sitting at a 6-max table expects to be faceing bluffs and moves all the time. This makes bluffing a lot less profitable, and value/overbetting a lot more profitable... so overbet more, bluff less.

This is laeelins reply to someone over in the beginners circle. Theyre talking NL, but I think its a pretty valid point to our LHE 6max games We obviously cannot overbet -- but we can value bet to hell. I see this as a particularly important aspect in blind steal/defense situations (which I believe are my weakest points).

Thoughts?

I'm trying to almost completely lose my pure bluffs at the moment, as pretty much everyone will look you up. Value bets ftw

Ok...

So you hold KQ
Folded to you on the buttton
You raise
SB Folds
BB Calls

Flop J87 rainbow
He checks, you bet
Turns a brick
He checks

Ok, so now what? This is the stuff that gets me screwed. If I check here, I've pretty much given up the hand as he'll bet pretty much any two on the river and I can't call.

Thats where my blind defense / blind stealing sucks.

I see alot of flop continuation bets and then it gets checked down to the river. I will do this with overcards. If he bets the river you should prob fold since good odds he has something and u dont. Give it up and wait for a better hand. If u want to mix it up, bet 50% of the time and don't bet 50% of the time and see how it goes. Or check and call 50% of the time. IMHO.

It depends on the BB since many players call the flop almost automatically. Against a straight player, I will bet the turn most of the time. Against tricky or unpredictable players, I will check the turn and save the bet to possibly call a river bet.

Against guys that constantly defend every BB and call check/call every flop after that, I have become more inclined to simply check flops that miss me and bet turns that get checked again.

Then again, the raise preflop, bet flop, check turn is still a very common line. The new fun part of the game for me is making those good calls on the river with Q or K high against opps that defend any blind and call any flop and have clearly been stealing pots on the river when I show weakness on the turn.

Ew char, eww.

Checking behind on the flop SCREAMS weak. If you check behind on the flop I'm betting into you on the turn with practically any two. If the guys a chronic flop c/r'r, then checking behind on the flop can really throw him for a loop, but if he just check/calls the flop with air, make him! Re-evaluate on the turn. Against people who often defend, check through the turn and auto-call the river with holdings as weak as ace-high a few times, and theyll back off you.

Calling down Q or King high on the river will never, ever, ever be a "good call" in my book. I see the point you're trying to make -- but bring ammo man, bring ammo.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Calling down Q or King high on the river will never, ever, ever be a "good call" in my book.

I disagree, but you gotta have the right player and board.

I didn't say I was checking every flop coming to me. I have stopped betting absolutely every checked flop where I raised preflop tho (which used to be my line every single time).

Originally Posted by chardrian

The new fun part of the game for me is making those good calls on the river with Q or K high against opps that defend any blind and call any flop and have clearly been stealing pots on the river when I show weakness on the turn.

Agreed. The fact is if you feel someone is habitually stealing off of your weak line, then you have to make a stand. I would prefer to set up loaded lines against my opponent instead of calling thin, such as checking around a couple times on draw safe boards when I have something nice. Not enough to lose value, but enough to put the aggressive opponent in line. I don't like calling down with K high, but I've done it plenty and won.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Ew char, eww.
Checking behind on the flop SCREAMS weak.

Disagreed. Checking behind on the flop screams weak only when your checks ARE too often weak enough to bless the villain with a math move. Any time an opponent gets too aggressive, passive, tight, or loose... you have to punish the tendancy. You're being exploited for being weak tight. You have to counterstrike in order to achieve balance of respect. This improves your value in other ways as well when you are percieved as good enough to adjust. It's all a back and forth. Good opponents will pound the wound. Don't let it happen.

I just simply bet/fold the turn.

Am I thinking about it the right way Jeff?

I think you guys are thinking too hard about it. I went through a time when I would check/behind a lot on the turn only to autocall the river bet with ace high or any pair. I do it much less now though as I realized its so much easier to bet/fold the turn an check the river, costing me the same money but have an increase in folding equity.

You guys underestimate the times that players fold better hands than yours on the turn because they are either afraid of the card, a random draw or that they are just too weak tight. Also, a lot of times they'll still call the turn bet either drawing or not with a worse hand than yours and you need to make them pay for their draw.

So, like I said, I simply just started to bet out every time. The only exceptions would be a hand like middle pair vs a tag, where I'd rather see a showdown than have to fold to a turn/check raise.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I think you guys are thinking too hard about it. I went through a time when I would check/behind a lot on the turn only to auto call the river bet with ace high or any pair.

Real bad idea, there is a spew if i ever heard one, sure with reads it can make it correct but just doing it because is a spew, i mean bet folding the turn shouldn't be automatic either just because a guy raised...

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

You guys underestimate the times that players fold better hands than yours on the turn because they are either afraid of the card, a random draw or that they are just too weak tight. Also, a lot of times they'll still call the turn bet either drawing or not with a worse hand than yours and you need to make them pay for their draw.

Yea I agree, I have seen some really funny shit call the turn bet and I miss bets on the river by checking behind because I have no idea where I am in the hand, the show shit like 62o for a busted GSD and all sorts of crazy junk hands... I have also seen people c/r these draws on the turn as well so make sure you know you're opponent’s tendency before you "automatically" make a play...

6 max is one of those games that nothing should be automatic for you there should be some reasoning behind it… this is way I hate when good players click bet as fast as they can, it’s like they are not thinking past what they have and what the board is, I’m sorry but no one can think in a matter of 1sec… it is limit so I mean within 10-20 sec I bet you get a answer that has a higher probability of being right by at least 50%...

there is nothing wrong with taking a little 10sec at each street no need to have the guns locked and loaded... loaded sure you are always loaded doesn't mean you lock it in and fire...

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I just simply bet/fold the turn.

Yup yup. Checking through the flop is rarely a good idea. Generally when I start at a table, I'll use a lot of bet/folding the turn. If I then feel that people are farking with me on the turn, I'll stop betting them, and will auto call the river with A high or better a few times, depending on board texture of course.