Live > Online

I headed to Atlantic City for some shanannigans at the Tropicana with a few friends earlier on this week. Had my first experiences playing live poker in a casino setting, and I must say ... it has made me never want to play online poker ever,ever,ever again. It's just so much more enjoyable being able to see your opponents face-to-face, and being able to pick up on physical tells. Also, the 1/2 tables are very soft, which made the experience a whole lot sweeter.

Anyone else out in FTRland have a more enjoyable time playing live?

I would say live >>> online, esp if you like $$$$

online game was just as easy as live a few years ago but its really getting tougher than ever these days cuz everyone and his dog has improved a lot from internet poker strategy forums, online coaching videos and other resources. The good news is that live poker is still like printing money without a big challenge to make lots of money compared to online imo.
Personally, i prefer live 1/2NL cash on weekends Just keep it in mind that you need different skill sets to crush live low limit holdem.

even back in the golden days, live was >> online.

Yes i struggle at NL 50 on PS, But 1/2 in Vegas was like wtf. People literally pushing all their chips to you. But I like playing from home so meh even trade. I'll be playing on a cruise ship tomorrow, electronic table. I'll give ya an update later.

Live play can be REALLY boring. At least online, we have the ability to multi-table and push our hourly rate to the max, instead of plopping a larger chunk of our roll on one live table.

Online players know we're way better than live players, in general. But live players think otherwise. Nothing against them, they're just ignorant to the fact that while they've been mainly donking around in home games and low buyin casino games, us online players have been busy putting in over hundreds of thousands of hands, discussing game theory in forums, and overall working much harder on our game.

Of course you will make more money at Atlantic City. Lots of gamblers there. Less likely to find a gambler on online poker in high stakes unless he enjoys losing money.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Live play can be REALLY boring. At least online, we have the ability to multi-table and push our hourly rate to the max, instead of plopping a larger chunk of our roll on one live table.

Online players know we're way better than live players, in general. But live players think otherwise. Nothing against them, they're just ignorant to the fact that while they've been mainly donking around in home games and low buyin casino games, us online players have been busy putting in over hundreds of thousands of hands, discussing game theory in forums, and overall working much harder on our game.

The key to live success is patience, consistence and the ability to spot body language.As i said above, you need different skill sets to beat live games.At least if the ultimate goal of playing poker is to make as much money as possible,then there's nothing better than sitting down at a live table and realizing that you are surrounded by all those horrible live fish.

The big problem with live play that I have is the moves that people make. People tend to slowplay sets and straights in live play where online players know how donkish that is. But because they do slowplay big hands, when they value bet or check raise the river, I am lost.

I find I actually make more money online since I can get far more hands in in the same amount of time.

I can't imagine that anyone could make a decent hourly at 1/2 live after rake and expenses over a significant sample. I've played ~100h of live 1/2... and yes, it plays like microstakes online, but you play 20 hands an hour, you have to drive there, you pay for drinks, you tip the dealer and at the end of the day you pretty much break even. Or at least I did. But then 100h isn't much of a sample (2000 hands ffs).
I'm pretty sure my 50NL online hourly is higher in the long run.
I'd really like to see the books of a live player who has been keeping track over 100k hands of live 1/2.

I used to go to the casino 2-3 times a week to play at the 1/2 nl tables. I'd probably spend on average about 4 hours and win about 300-400 on average.

When I can start playing online again (waiting to deposit a nice bankroll), I feel like I should start at .10/.25. 1/2 online kicked my ass and I was able to hang around the .25/.50 tables with little effort.

How much do you think a tight player could make at 1 table playing .10/.25 in an hr? I know a lot depends, but just for conversation purposes...

live 1/2nl live isn't>>>>50nl in terms of hourly like a lot of people tend to think. i've prolly put in like 50 hours of 1/2nl in the past six months which works out to a whole big whopping 1.5k hands or something retarded like that.

also 1/2nl live is certainly softer than even like 25nl 6m online, but not NEARLY as softer as online players tend to think. obviously, no one ever ever ever knows how to play preflop at live games, whereas that's prolly an online player's most solid facet, but live regs are far less liekly to pay you off with single paired hands, quite a bit more likely to put pressure on with aggression with hands that have decent equity, more likely to spot the difference between a weak range and a strong range, able to pick up on tells, etc.

that being said, this is when comparing to like 5 stakes below on online, and these "regs" make up a much smaller portion of the population, and once again they have really really bad leaks preflop, including not giving the value of position enough respect.

i don't know which fish are worse (online or live), but live ones are harder to exploit because they fold a lot more

Originally Posted by Fieldsy

How much do you think a tight player could make at 1 table playing .10/.25 in an hr? I know a lot depends, but just for conversation purposes...

In my 5 years live cash experience, a standard decent live 1/2 player can achieve $20-25 hourly win rate over a large sample size in some good poker rooms. My hourly win rate is normally more than $40 on the weekends or holidays.

Originally Posted by surviva316

live 1/2nl live isn't>>>>50nl in terms of hourly like a lot of people tend to think. i've prolly put in like 50 hours of 1/2nl in the past six months which works out to a whole big whopping 1.5k hands or something retarded like that.

also 1/2nl live is certainly softer than even like 25nl 6m online, but not NEARLY as softer as online players tend to think. obviously, no one ever ever ever knows how to play preflop at live games, whereas that's prolly an online player's most solid facet, but live regs are far less liekly to pay you off with single paired hands, quite a bit more likely to put pressure on with aggression with hands that have decent equity, more likely to spot the difference between a weak range and a strong range, able to pick up on tells, etc.

that being said, this is when comparing to like 5 stakes below on online, and these "regs" make up a much smaller portion of the population, and once again they have really really bad leaks preflop, including not giving the value of position enough respect.

i don't know which fish are worse (online or live), but live ones are harder to exploit because they fold a lot more

It really depends on poker rooms.If you can spot some big fish or huge donators in your local room,its damn hard to not make a hell of a lot of money there.

Originally Posted by Fieldsy

How much do you think a tight player could make at 1 table playing .10/.25 in an hr?

If you're good you can make ~$1/h.

is that $1 per hand?

lol, no. Hour.

pretty sure you can make more $/hr grinding 50nl online than 1/2 live (multitabling ldo).

it's too easy for live players to overestimate how much they are winning.

Live>online in every way but the hourly imo.

Originally Posted by pokerfan

In my 5 years live cash experience, a standard decent live 1/2 player can achieve $20-25 hourly win rate over a large sample size in some good poker rooms. My hourly win rate is normally more than $40 on the weekends or holidays.

wat, you were making somewhere from 60ptbb/100-100ptbb/100 on the weekend @ 1/2 live?

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

pretty sure you can make more $/hr grinding 50nl online than 1/2 live (multitabling ldo).

it's too easy for live players to overestimate how much they are winning.

How many tables at once?

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

wat, you were making somewhere from 60ptbb/100-100ptbb/100 on the weekend @ 1/2 live?

what are you talking about? $40 hourly win rate is surely achievable on the weekend in good poker rooms if you can crush live low stake games.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

pretty sure you can make more $/hr grinding 50nl online than 1/2 live (multitabling ldo).

it's too easy for live players to overestimate how much they are winning.

Haha, i highly doubt that a normal reg can make more $/hr multitabling 50nl online.If you are capable of beating 100NL online or above with very good win rate, i'd say "yep,its definitely more profitable than 1/2 live ". Nobody can live like a king when multitabling 50NL online cuz online FR games are fucking the Nit infested garden.

Originally Posted by pokerfan

what are you talking about? $40 hourly win rate is surely achievable on the weekend in good poker rooms if you can crush live low stake games.

40 $/hr at a table that deals out ~30 h/hr means that you're winning a BI every 150 hands, which means you're crushing the stakes at like a 30ptbb/100, which (get over it) no one's believing you do, regardless of how drunk your opponents are.

24 tabling 50nl FR online at a 2.5ptbb/100, however, (assuming that with starting and changing tables and stuff like that, you only get like 1,000 hands an hour, which is super friggin' conservative) is 25 $/hr...extremely achievable.

10 tabling 50nl 6m at 4ptbb/100 (assuming 750 hands/hr) is 30 $/hr...seeing as how this is less than my hourly over an 80k hand sample at 50nl 6m, i'd deem this achievable.

the problem with live poker (and the good thing 'cause that's what keeps the fish in) is that it's impossible to be accurate/honest with your winrate because all of your hands aren't being auto-logged into a massive database that gives you a raw bottom-line of alllll of your winnings and losings. there's no way you could say "unequivocally looking at my 80k hand database that doesn't exclude a single hand i've ever played at the stake, i have _____ hourly"

also lolsamplesize. playing every single hour from 10pm-4am on every single friday and every single saturday for a whole year is still only ~636 hrs of playing which is only like 19k hands. so even if you didn't so much as sit out to take a piss, much less take a vacation, much less miss a friday night to watch a movie with the Mrs.'s here or there, you're sample size for a whole year for "playing on the prime weekend hours is lol soft" is like meh.

prolly shoulda put the lolsamplesize thing first because it's the best point i made.

of course i don't doubt that i'm just playing at the worse/toughest times to play (and it's still laughably soft), seeing as how half of my experience is off of the big strips (ie not vegas or AC) and i've never played a single hand during the weekend, and most of it has been mid-afternoon -> very early evening (like 8 o clock).

i'm sure if i played at a time when i never have to bluff, and i can just wait for aces and sets and get paid off, my variance would be a lot lower, and i'd have much less respect for live games

Do you play the same way online to live? I'm just curious because I really want to learn how to get better at online play. Do you play very tight?

also, 30ptbb/100 for a 1/2 table would be 120 dollars an hr made right?

If so than that does happen at times, but not much. I would say 50 dollars made an hr would be a good average.

30ptb/100 would be a $120 hourly if you were getting 100 hands an hour, which is a ridiculous estimate for a 10-handed live table. that's more than you should expect for any single 6m online table lol. i was going with the number 33.3 repeating hands per hour which is still generous.

i would say wording it as "i play differently live than i do online" can trap a lot of players. it's still "i have a range, villain has a range, so i _____." the fact that the opponents have different ranges, though, and play them differently ends up making my actions different. it's not so much as "playing lolLAgg is the preferred way to play where as playing like ______ is better for online." it just so happens that when players fold single-paired hands to all ins live, where as no one folds top pair ever online, running sick bluffs is more frequently +EV. because no one EVERRRRRRR pfr's in live poker without like AQo+, 99+, open limping hands like 22 and 87s UTG is more frequently an ok play, whereas online you're never getting the price of just the BB 'cause someone's gonna raise, and less people are gonna limp so you're not as frequently getting massively multi-way pots. because players are much more cally preflop live, iso'ing with J7o is less often gonna be profitable because you're gonna end up in like a 5-way pot a lot of the time. folding AJo and KQo frequently is the nuts live (especially OOP) due to the strength of people's pfr ranges and people's decreased likelihood of giving 3 streets of action with TP2K. etc

so i wouldn't say i play differently at all in the sense that it's still "this person will give me this many streets of value, so i should play my hand this way" or "i will have an assload of FE if i take this line, so i should play my hand this way" etc, though obviously if you were running a HUD on me i would prolly appear to be two completely different players

hope that answers your quesiton

I got burned last weekend playing loose in AC. I got cocky with my play, and played crap like J7o. I sunk to the fishes level and became one myself.

With 1/2 NL......a standard raise can be f'n 8x/10x BB. That is sick. With an 8x raise, you could get 3 callers. 10x or more you will be heads up or 3 way.

well maybe the first rule of thumb with playing laggy postflop is that it really really helps to play strong ranges in position preflop.

what does laggy postflop mean?

Also, do you think online players play as loose as live players?

Compare 1/2 live to .25/.50 NL online

Originally Posted by Fieldsy

what does laggy postflop mean?

Also, do you think online players play as loose as live players?

Compare 1/2 live to .25/.50 NL online

Check out the beginners/vocab section here, it should help to understand a lot of the conversations going on.

LAGG= Loose agressive
TAGG=Tight agressive

So, they play very loosely and aggressively after the flop has come down.

I.E. Probably c-bet (continuation bet) quite a bit, and may even come over the top of you with nothing, if you raise them.

Truth is, it always depends on the player. I know live players that won't play aj in any position with the exception of them being in the blinds and the pot remains unraised.

Most though, think aj is the NUTS. It's pretty commonly accepted that you play slightly tighter online, and slightly looser live due to the disparity in the number of hands you see, especially in tournaments (If you have that bankroll sucking addiction).

Hope that helps.

well that's not completely true.

live players play waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay tigher postflop. you never see a player who calls a cbet with ATC live, whereas that type of player gets his own color coding in your online notes. again, as i've mentioned before, live regs don't put in 3 streets worth of money with single pair hands, whereas people will stack off with ridiculous crap far more constantly online. live players are probably looser preflop than online players, but a lot of that is due to the huge difference in reg:fish ratio.

[5:44:17 PM] Ryan Baller: what do you think a 1/2 hourly could be?
[5:44:19 PM] Ryan Baller: over long run
[5:44:30 PM] Ryan Baller: live that is
[5:44:31 PM] Wayne Parsons: Iunno
[5:44:33 PM] Wayne Parsons: oh
[5:44:34 PM] Wayne Parsons: rofl
[5:44:35 PM] Ryan Baller: haha
[5:44:38 PM] Wayne Parsons: not 40$
[5:44:40 PM] Ryan Baller: yea
[5:44:41 PM] Ryan Baller: like
[5:44:42 PM] Ryan Baller: u only get
[5:44:42 PM] Wayne Parsons: like ppl were saying in that thread
[5:44:44 PM] Ryan Baller: 30hands an our
[5:44:45 PM] Ryan Baller: ...
[5:44:46 PM] Ryan Baller: 30 fucking hands
[5:44:47 PM] Ryan Baller: and
[5:44:51 PM] Ryan Baller: after tips and rake
[5:44:56 PM] Ryan Baller: and rake is higher live
[5:44:58 PM] Wayne Parsons: maybe 20 w/ no tips and rake
[5:45:01 PM] Wayne Parsons: that would be like
[5:45:02 PM] Ryan Baller: yea
[5:45:04 PM] Ryan Baller: theres no fucking way
[5:45:09 PM] Wayne Parsons: 20$/30hands
[5:45:14 PM] Wayne Parsons: so like 30ptbb/100
[5:45:15 PM] Wayne Parsons: luhlz
[5:45:19 PM] Ryan Baller: these guys are all so dellusional inthe live forum
[5:45:25 PM] Wayne Parsons: 30ptbb/100
[5:45:25 PM] Ryan Baller: they think you can't make more playing 50nl online
[5:45:25 PM] Wayne Parsons: !
[5:45:39 PM] Ryan Baller: you can make $40/hour+ playing 50nl online
[5:45:49 PM] Ryan Baller: depending on # of tables/your edge etc
[5:46:20 PM] Ryan Baller: pretty sure 24 tabling is somewhere near $20/hr alone in rakeback
[5:46:32 PM] Wayne Parsons: something like that
[5:46:38 PM] Ryan Baller: yea
[5:46:42 PM] Ryan Baller: i mean that may be overestimated
[5:46:47 PM] Ryan Baller: ive done the math before
[5:46:54 PM] Ryan Baller: too lazy now ldo
[5:47:12 PM] Ryan Baller: but its just obvious you cannot make a living playing 1/2 ilve
[5:47:26 PM] Ryan Baller: live players are always like 'oh yeah i wina few hundred a night'
[5:47:37 PM] Ryan Baller: makes people who ask 'so how much did you lose' look smart
[5:47:48 PM] Wayne Parsons: lol

1200 hands/hour at 50nl at a Supernova rate will net you about $14 worth of fpps. This does not include the additional milestone bonuses which can be allocated to your hourly.

If your win rate is 2.5ptbb/100 at 50nl, which is certainly sustainable given how bad everyone there, 1200 hands/hour at this rate works out to $30/hour.

$30+$14 = $44/hour.



Now can we make this much at 1/2 live?

let's say you earn 10ptbb/100 at 1/2 live. You get 33 hands an hour because I am generous and it makes the math easier. Okay cool bro you make $40/100 hands. Print money!

Oh wait, you earn a whopping $13.20 an hour and we aren't even tips yet.

if you want to make a decent hourly live, you simply need to play higher. You guys who say you make a few hundred a night playing 1/2 simply forget the times you lost a few hundred. It's too easy to not keep track when you don't have a graph telling you your results in front of your face.




And now to respond to most of this thread:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

I would say live >>> online, esp if you like $$$$

online > live if you don't have a massive bankroll and skill/experience to play mid-high stakes live.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

But live players think otherwise. Nothing against them, they're just ignorant to the fact that while they've been mainly donking around in home games and low buyin casino games, us online players have been busy putting in over hundreds of thousands of hands, discussing game theory in forums, and overall working much harder on our game.

true

Originally Posted by RoyalFlush

I find I actually make more money online since I can get far more hands in in the same amount of time.

you know it

Originally Posted by oskar

I can't imagine that anyone could make a decent hourly at 1/2 live after rake and expenses over a significant sample. I've played ~100h of live 1/2... and yes, it plays like microstakes online, but you play 20 hands an hour, you have to drive there, you pay for drinks, you tip the dealer and at the end of the day you pretty much break even. Or at least I did. But then 100h isn't much of a sample (2000 hands ffs).
I'm pretty sure my 50NL online hourly is higher in the long run.
I'd really like to see the books of a live player who has been keeping track over 100k hands of live 1/2.

wow I am amazed that I agree with every word you say oskar

Originally Posted by pokerfan

In my 5 years live cash experience, a standard decent live 1/2 player can achieve $20-25 hourly win rate over a large sample size in some good poker rooms. My hourly win rate is normally more than $40 on the weekends or holidays.

I imagine $20-$25 is possible depending on game conditions, especially if the game gets playing deeper.

Originally Posted by Fieldsy

is that $1 per hand?

I lol'd

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

wat, you were making somewhere from 60ptbb/100-100ptbb/100 on the weekend @ 1/2 live?

I lol'd

Originally Posted by pokerfan

Haha, i highly doubt that a normal reg can make more $/hr multitabling 50nl online.If you are capable of beating 100NL online or above with very good win rate, i'd say "yep,its definitely more profitable than 1/2 live ". Nobody can live like a king when multitabling 50NL online cuz online FR games are fucking the Nit infested garden.

see math post

Originally Posted by Fieldsy

I got burned last weekend playing loose in AC. I got cocky with my play, and played crap like J7o. I sunk to the fishes level and became one myself.

With 1/2 NL......a standard raise can be f'n 8x/10x BB. That is sick. With an 8x raise, you could get 3 callers. 10x or more you will be heads up or 3 way.

looks like your hourly just took a hit

Originally Posted by Fieldsy

what does laggy postflop mean?

Also, do you think online players play as loose as live players?

Compare 1/2 live to .25/.50 NL online

if you do not know what laggy postflop means you are probably not winning as much as you think you are.

/thread.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

1200 hands/hour at 50nl at a Supernova rate will net you about $14 worth of fpps. This does not include the additional milestone bonuses which can be allocated to your hourly.

If your win rate is 2.5ptbb/100 at 50nl, which is certainly sustainable given how bad everyone there, 1200 hands/hour at this rate works out to $30/hour.

$30+$14 = $44/hour.

Nobody averages more than 1000hands/h and makes more than 1ptbb. I can play 16 tables SH and HU for about 30min. After that my brain is toast. Theoretically I could earn an astronomic hourly if I only played for 30min./day on full throttle, but that would be stupid.
There's maybe half a dozen players who make $40+ at 50NL over 500k+ hands. I've made $50/h + at 50NL over 100k, 200k hand samples... but if I'm being honest and look at the whole thing it's more like $15-20 - I don't know exactly cuz I lost my database but it's not very sexy. But it's a BS discussion anyway. Post some hands instead. Who cares about your stupid hourly. Shut up and play.

I still maintain that you might be able to maintain a profit at 1/2 live, but you cannot play it professionally.

yeah, that hourly is probably overstated.

cut the 30 in half and that is certainly doable. 30/hr it is. don't forget the money you are making from fpps+milestones

30/h is doable if you're on top of the pile. At which point you should probably move up, or cash out and buy something stupid and rebuild.
The average winning player makes significantly less tho.

thats 1.25ptbb which even some of the dumbest 50nl regs are pulling.

At 400 to 600 hands - which is what most regs will average... I mean really average... not at their peak but actual hands played from the moment they fired up PS to the last table closing including breaks... that's not even close to $30/h
Even at 1000hands/h your're not getting there with 1.25 ptbb. idk what you're talking about... and 1000h/h is absolutely ridiculous unless you're playing rush or some shortstack strategy. idk if I can return a profit playing that many tables, and I very much doubt that the dumbest regs can. You need more than 20 tables for that for sure. Actually I'm pretty damn sure I'd be loosing money with more than 20 tables.

oskar wtf are you talking about

there are a number of players 24 tabling 100nl for >2ptbb

surely 1.25ptbb is doable 20 tabling at 50 jesus christ I just said $15/hour mass tabling 50nl is doable WITHOUT rakeback. rakeback is over $15/hour if you include milestones etc on stars. therefore $30/hour is doable at 50nl

and if you can't beat $50nl for $30/hr online you sure as hell can't beat live for $13.20

I don't believe it until I see stats. I doubt more than a handful of players can average 1000+ hands. I cannot. Or at least it would be less profitable than with what I average now which is 700/hour and that's playing 16 tables at the peak of my sessions. Most people struggle with more than 8 tables.
You might be able to push the limit for a week or a month. But if you can keep that rate up over a year you're an absolute animal... it's certainly not a realistic winrate for joe average who has a job and kids and plays poker in his free time.

Oscar at 800 hands an hour and a better win rate than playing 1000 50nl still is going to be more profitable for a good player. That is the point and there's really not much else to say.

Of course. I was just pointing out that you're padding the numbers as well.
That and I was bored because I was just 6 tabling after a long day... effectively bringing down my hourly as well as hands played. I could not play at all and look at nicer numbers at the end of the year, but what's the point.

Originally Posted by oskar

Of course. I was just pointing out that you're padding the numbers as well.
That and I was bored because I was just 6 tabling after a long day... effectively bringing down my hourly as well as hands played. I could not play at all and look at nicer numbers at the end of the year, but what's the point.

2.5ptbb at 50nl seriously doesn't seem like padding.

and its not hard to find >20 good tables at most times given how large the player pool is at this stake.

Originally Posted by pokerfan

Haha, i highly doubt that a normal reg can make more $/hr multitabling 50nl online.If you are capable of beating 100NL online or above with very good win rate, i'd say "yep,its definitely more profitable than 1/2 live ". Nobody can live like a king when multitabling 50NL online cuz online FR games are fucking the Nit infested garden.

lol-wat, even through my tilt and bullshit I'm > $30/hr at 50nl net of bonuses and rakeback over the last 3 months. $55 is probably attainable

m2m I'll ship you a dollar for every player you can find that A: earns 2.5ptbb+, B: playes 20+ tables consistently. Over a reasonable sample without cherry picking some prop bet period. A HEM sessions tab screenshot or pt pendant will do.


^^ is the only one around here that I wouldn't bet against doing that. It's hugely unrealistic for most regs. 2.5ptbb 12 tabling... EZ game... 20 tabling breaking even... EZ game. Both: you're talking shit.

or you could just play lolLAggmax at 5.5ptbb/100, putting in just like 600 hands/hour and get 30 $/hr before rakeback and milestones....

i def ran hot over the first half of the sample, but 80k hands is much more legitimate than any sample you're gonna get for "peak weekend hours" single tabling live for any less than 10 years

Everybody is talking shit here. If you can live like a king playing online 50NL,then i guess i would quit my daytime job right away.Staring at a computer screen for hours can drive you crazy, not to mention that you will have to grind it out all day to pay rent and bills in front of your fucking computer. Also, online games have been become so much tougher over the last 1-2 years and will continue to become even more difficult with all the poker education that is available on the internet. Personally, i can beat 100NL FR on stars with about 2.5BB/100 over half million hands back in 2008.Now its becoming harder for me to even beat 50NL FR with 2BB/100 over a large sample size. Assuming that you are surrounded by 6-7 donks at a table in loose live 1/2 games on a regular basis( you only need ABC poker and rarely bluff), what the fuck do you think that a decent live regular cant make much more money than a multitabling 50NL online reg? As i said above, your overall long term profit will heavily depend on fish pool in your local card rooms.Fortunately,i live in a tourist town with lots of ridiculous gamblers at casino.

Staring at the computer is a snooze fest. I love the atmosphere in a live game. You can have conversations and learn very well from them.

Originally Posted by oskar

m2m I'll ship you a dollar for every player you can find that A: earns 2.5ptbb+, B: playes 20+ tables consistently. Over a reasonable sample without cherry picking some prop bet period. A HEM sessions tab screenshot or pt pendant will do.


^^ is the only one around here that I wouldn't bet against doing that. It's hugely unrealistic for most regs. 2.5ptbb 12 tabling... EZ game... 20 tabling breaking even... EZ game. Both: you're talking shit.

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go after them for clarification

a few hundred recent hours of 50nl/pl play. During this time i got some decent rakeback (see rake column) and also cleared close to $2k in bonuses
and i played bad a bunch, decent player should be able to crush...

Originally Posted by daven

a few hundred recent hours of 50nl/pl play. During this time i got some decent rakeback (see rake column) and also cleared close to $2k in bonuses
and i played bad a bunch, decent player should be able to crush...

You are supposed to show us your win rate after 1 million hands if you think that its great to play 50NL for a nice living

Originally Posted by pokerfan

You are supposed to show us your win rate after 1 million hands if you think that its great to play 50NL for a nice living

i think i was a net loser over the first 750k or so...

so, i just moved into a place about five minutes walk from a casino. I think they spread 2-4 mixed NLHE/PLO reasonably frequently
i'll go take a look, million hands may take a while tho.
Or maybe i'll head to the local (3hrs drive) ski resort town next weekend, hope it rains, and sit in the casino for 48hrs
never played casino poker in NZ, i'm guessing everyone is solid

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Kfuse Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
justforfunds Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
nanonoko Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
gutter23 Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
natisfinest Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
TYROMPER Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
Milwaukee2 Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars (24's 100 and 200)
TheLife Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
bigchiefds Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
helen_gamble Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars (16 tables)
Imperceptus Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
ehafner Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars
alvaro_20 Poker Player Ranking and Stats at PokerStars (3.5 at 50nl)

go after them for clarification

How do you know they average 20 tables? I know for a fact that natisfinest doesn't. afaik neither does nonoko. And I'm pretty sure kfuze doesn't either.
You're talking shit.

Originally Posted by oskar

m2m I'll ship you a dollar for every player you can find that A: earns 2.5ptbb+, B: playes 20+ tables consistently. Over a reasonable sample without cherry picking some prop bet period. A HEM sessions tab screenshot or pt pendant will do.


^^ is the only one around here that I wouldn't bet against doing that. It's hugely unrealistic for most regs. 2.5ptbb 12 tabling... EZ game... 20 tabling breaking even... EZ game. Both: you're talking shit.

Can I have a dollar for every player I can name cause there's a few dozen easily.

Lol oskar, you're such a toolbag right now. Normally I don't mind talking to you/reading your posts, but you're seriously coming off as an ass right now.

It is entirely possible to win at 5bb/100 over a large sample size 20+ tabling. I'd be willing to bet my BR more than 100 players do at 50nl alone. Fucking Outlaw 24 tables 25nl (and I think 50nl now?) and I'm pretty sure he does it. Not 100% on his winrate though.

Seriously though, stfu. 20 tabling 50nl online > 33 hands/hr at 1/2 live in terms of hourly. That should be so LDFO to someone that understands the numbers that its not even funny.

Originally Posted by oskar

How do you know they average 20 tables? I know for a fact that natisfinest doesn't. afaik neither does nonoko. And I'm pretty sure kfuze doesn't either.
You're talking shit.

you are such a fucking tard please go get raped by a huge back man with aids.

nano 24 tables 6max ffs unless he's playing high stakes how is this not known to everyone?

natisfinest does like 200k hands a month so pretty sure he's 24 tabling.

kfuse DOES 20+ table I talk to him personally about it. The only times he doesn't is when he's playing 2/4+

TYROMPER 24 tables and its confirmed he 1. doesn't hide from search 2. other regs have discussed this in the regs thread on 2p2 about how he wins so much.

helen gamble admits to 16 tabling somewhere on his PTR wall

Milwaukee2 does not hide from search and anytime he is playing full ring 100-200 he 24 tables. Aside from that though he bumhunts HU and 6max without many tables. He discusses this in his videos on dragthebar.com.

TheLife also 24 tables as mentioned in one of his recent PTR wall posts.

I'm not writing a paragraph for every single person playing on stars that plays a lot of tables and beats the games at a decent rate but it can be done and for you not to believe this is just retarded. If you 'cannot believe' all this information just go read 2p2 and keep up with things. Apparently this is something you lack at deeply which explains your small stakes for life situation in poker.

Let me name a few now.
jrockhaf-Stars
Ronfar3-Stars
vinivici9586-Stars
e306-Stars
Rennwurm-Stars
gutter23-Stars
lydia12345-Stars
Mauzinho-FTP
McAlonso-Stars
wasta33-Stars
3J55-Stars
QQ-Q u a d S-QQ-FTP
SIX3OFF-Absolute poker
ehafner-Stars
ralphd77-Stars
cb4mvp-Stars
Impercetus-Stars
Summerballs-Stars
JimboNYY24-Stars
Swtwtr25-Stars
thegame2006-Stars
Cmulls14-Stars
MidnightTokr-Stars

ZZzzz gonna stop there, that's JUST 100NL. I would estimate about 90% of the ppl can pull off 2.5ptbb/100 @ 50NL 20 tabling over a significant sample as most of them are pulling 1.5ptbb/100+ @ 100NL over huge samples while mass tabling.

If you want me to name a few dozen more I will but for now you can ship me like 20$ or w/e it is you owe me.

hem or ptr screenshot or it didnt happen.

I have played 20 tables before - I know its possible but its near impossible to keep that up for 500k hands+

btw its funny that the you two are trying to argue how easy it is to play 1.2k+ per h while Im sure that none of you even comes close to 1k hands p/h

Originally Posted by oskar

btw its funny that the you two are trying to argue how easy it is to play 1.2k+ per h while Im sure that none of you even comes close to 1k hands p/h

i come pretty close, and i posted hem

im not at home and no 3g. i think im missing something because i dont see how those ptr pages show their multi table ratio.
i dont think they do. dranger, get outlaw to ship you a screenshot and you can split the dollar and double your br.
BAM

iz funnay cuz ur broke

daven, i know you do. But I dont think daven-who-16-tables-plo-sh is a good is representative for ur aberage lowstakes ginder.

exkuze spelling cuz uf mobail internetz.

Thanks for attacking the size of my BR which is completely irrelevant in this discussion. I guess that's cool though. Sorry you feel threatened because you know you're wrong.

Do me a favor, head over to 2p2 -> PL/NL Texas Holdem -> Small Stakes FR -> Pokerstars reg thread and ask people to post HEM/PT3 screenshots with graphs and shit for people who 20+ table at 50nl+ and see how many winners there are over 2.5ptbb/100.

I would attack you for regrinding and breaking even for the 97th time like everyone else, but there's really no need at this point.

Oh and oskar, if you had half a brain stem, you would realize you could figure out number of tables by going into sessions tab of HEM and using the time played and number of hands.

Hurr durrr

so oskar can't deal with the fact that some people are better at multitabling than him?

lol oskar thinks these ppl single table 365 days of the year to get 2million hands obv so obviously they aren't multi tabling.

I draw some conclusions as follows:
1, You cant make a nice living playing lots of online 50NL tables no matter how good you think you are. Its just too painful to make ends meet this way.
2,You cant make a nice living playing 1/2 live unless you are in a tourism town with lots of gamblers at your local casino in which case i think that a decent regular can make some serious money out there.
3,Online poker becomes a tougher game due to all kinds of education everywhere on the net.Those poker educational sites are making average Joe become a decent player,which will eventually dry up profit in general.Yeah,our beloved FTR did a good job too.
4,You dont need advanced poker skills to beat most live 1/2 or 2/5 games in the world.Live poker skill level seems to get stuck in the ice age forever.I just couldn't find a competent player in my live cash games for whatever reason.
5, As long as the rake is reasonable and your bankroll is large enough to cover swings of bad luck, i'd suggest everyone to take a serious look at 2/5 live cuz those sick loose games are almost as super soft as 1/2NL(It is very juicy at least in my local card room)
6,A good 2/5 soft live game >> 100NL/200NL multitabling online IMO. A good well-educated player who is capable of spotting body language and exploiting weak players' vulnerable psychology can make easy money with ease and enjoy face to face real poker at the same time.
7,Super nova elite on stars is definitely worth a shot for an average online Joe who wants to make a nice living but sacrifice his whole social life for the whole year.Sadly but true ,this is the only way to make serious money for AVG Joe.

Originally Posted by oskar

hem or ptr screenshot or it didnt happen.

I have played 20 tables before - I know its possible but its near impossible to keep that up for 500k hands+

btw its funny that the you two are trying to argue how easy it is to play 1.2k+ per h while Im sure that none of you even comes close to 1k hands p/h

my goals involve moving up through high stakes not grinding .5/1 for the rest of my career.

<3 this thread.

GOOO OSKAR

dranger, you're more fun when you're high.
And how the fuck do I get into milwaukee's HEM to look at his sessions tab is what I wanna know.

Agreed, m2m. It's stupid in addition to being near impossible. 1200 average means that if you ever allow yourself the luxury of opening/closing tables and grinding 12 tables when you're not feeling sharp means that you have to have periods where you grind 1600 and more. that's why I'm still confident that I'm right. If someone wants to dig up session tab screenshots and make a dollar or two, I'm paying up. I don't care if I get proven wrong on this, but I would be surprised.
And I agree with everything pokerfan said.

Online players underestimate the edge you can have in live games and live players underestimate how many tables online players can play at a time... go figure.

I've played 20+ tables profitably online, and I've consistently won 30bb/hr in pass-the-deal home games. If you table select, you can make a modest living at $1/$2NL games raking $4/pot and tipping the waitress $1/hr. Keep in mind there's no paper trail to those winnings and you do get $1 or more per hour on a player card and lots of free meals in addition to that.

Ok, that's my contribution, you can all continue making silly prop bets and arguing semantics (and insulting each other for no reason).

Originally Posted by oskar

And how the fuck do I get into milwaukee's HEM to look at his sessions tab is what I wanna know.

pretty sure he meant the ptr sessions tab.

yah, I don't use ptr much other than to talk to my fans. It looks like you could get it from there, but it's a pain in the ass.
I have no freaking clue how this started. I was just saying that "Oh herro der everyone can 20 table 50NL at 1.5ptbb ez game" is a ridiculous thing to say. There's a very small number of people who can pull that off. Compare realistic hourly rates for average regs. And no, I'm not going to read 2+2 threads. Half the people online or live lie about their winrates: to themselves as well as to everyone else. And 96% will pull any number out of their ass to win an internet argument. Turn around and say hello to your mom for me u homos.

Nah I'm just kidding. You're all cool.

Still say hi to ur mom for me tho.

Cmon, you know I you all. Even you yaawn.