Slowplaying in Limit

Hey there! New to the forums here

Im hoping that a limit master at these forums could help settle a dispute that has come up between me and a friend about a particular hand that occured last night in a $2-$4 game.

Get dealt K K in the Big Blind.
Folds all around, to the button, who raises. Small blind calls, I reraise, both of them call.

Flop comes up A K 5
Small Blind checks, I bet, they both call.

Turn is 5
The Small Blind checks. And I checked also.

Here is where the problem is..... My friend is adamant that the correct play here is to bet, to get as much money in the pot as possible.
However I told him, that I checked because one of two profitable things might happen:
1) button bets, small blind calls, and I can raise it.
or 2) checks all around, and then on the river they might bet or even raise with hands that they would have folded to if I had of bet on the turn.

Seeing as there was two flush draws out there on the turn, I was hoping that someone would get there flush on the river, or that they would be trapped with a hand containing an Ace or a Five.

So would you check or bet the turn?

Thanks

how about this scenario?
they have a 5 and they raise you on the turn. you 3bet and they cap back. river comes and they bet, you raise, and they finally reluctantly call.

bet the turn.

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

how about this scenario?
they have a 5 and they raise you on the turn. you 3bet and they cap back. river comes and they bet, you raise, and they finally reluctantly call.

bet the turn.

This says it all right here… I don't think I could elaborate further, get in there betting on the turn…

Bet it out. You won't be able to make up your lost bets later.

If you had Ivey, Lederer, and Malmuth at your table, I might change my vote, but you don't.

At low limits most people with an ace will call down to the river. At low limits most people will call down with a flush draw. At low limits there might be someone staying in with a 5 or two pair. Bet the turn.

If Hyper says bet the turn, then you got your expert advice. I mean that sincerely.

While I have nowhere near the experience as Hyper, this is an automatic no-bet on the turn for me. If I was 1st or 2nd to act (you were 2nd) I would check as you did. If I had the button I would bet, after some reflection - lol

Mojo, I would do this for the reasons you note. It's your pot anyway, and besides, it looks like the SB needs to catch a draw in order for you to get any $ out of him, as he checked the turn. Also, your check on the turn may induce the very bet that you hope the button will make.

I would check and risk loosing one bet on the turn in the hope that someone caught a flush or another hand they could not let go on the river.


I noticed others have all voted otherwise, but I just don't get it. If you bet the turn and they fold, you have gained nothing anyway. I'd risk a turn bet for the better chance of a capped river, especially with two flush draws on board.

I have to quit this game I think, because what seems intuitively obvious to me is most often noted as incorrect by others.......yet I'm +EV...go figure.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

At low limits most people with an ace will call down to the river. At low limits most people will call down with a flush draw. At low limits there might be someone staying in with a 5 or two pair. Bet the turn.

Limits are relative. These may not be "low" limits for the people playing them.

At any limits anyone with a 5 (trip 5s ??) or two pair is "staying in". I don't think that is a "might" or a maybe.

Even if somebody catches a flush on the river, the best you can hope for is that you bet, they raise, other guy folds, you reraise, they call. You get 3 BB. If you bet the turn, there is a good chance they will both call for 2 BB. Then they still might hit the flush on the river and the same scenario as above plays out except you've made more money. Now think of the worst that can happen, you let somebody with Ax get a free card and another A falls. Now he has AAA55 vs your KKK55(ooops). I say bet the turn for sure.

I think that a check is correct if you think that the button will bet most of the time, but would only call or fold if you bet. This gets the same number of bets in the pot and disguises your hand. A checkraise is also correct if you put the button on an agressive Ace and the sb on a flush draw, since you can get an extra bet out of the draw. I agree that betting is usually the best play, but a lot of things can affect your decision.

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Even if somebody catches a flush on the river, the best you can hope for is that you bet, they raise, other guy folds, you reraise, they call. You get 3 BB. If you bet the turn, there is a good chance they will both call for 2 BB. Then they still might hit the flush on the river and the same scenario as above plays out except you've made more money. Now think of the worst that can happen, you let somebody with Ax get a free card and another A falls. Now he has AAA55 vs your KKK55(ooops). I say bet the turn for sure.

Nehmer, the Ax scenerio you describe is flawed. If you rethink it I believe you will agree.

If someone has Ax, then they have AA55with K kicker after the turn. They are not going to fold here becasue the don't get a "free" card. Would you fold? In fact, they now know that the 2nd 5 nulifies their weak kicker. They will be betting/raising here. Certainly you can't believe that a bet on the turn "protects" your hand here from Ax?

Bet this turn. You may get raised by a 5 or A and can 3-bet. If no one has either, theyre folding. If someone has hand, theyre calling/raising. No need to give a free card here or go for a c/r and whiff.

You have to bet the turn. They called with something on the flop. On the turn there is still a card to come, so you can get a little $$ from someone on a draw.

Once the river hits, there are no more cards coming out and the missed draw will simply fold. Make your bet while the dream is still alive for your opp.

Now...if this were NL...then you play it totally different. You only have so many chances to get $ in the pot in limit. The correct answer is usually BET.

Nehmer, the Ax scenerio you describe is flawed. If you rethink it I believe you will agree.

If someone has Ax, then they have AA55with K kicker after the turn. They are not going to fold here becasue the don't get a "free" card. Would you fold? In fact, they now know that the 2nd 5 nulifies their weak kicker. They will be betting/raising here. Certainly you can't believe that a bet on the turn "protects" your hand here from Ax?

Of course I don't think they are going to fold. I do however think that you should definately make people pay to catch on you in situations where it is possible they will catch on you. I also think there is a very good chance they will raise the turn in this situation which will make you more money than if you checked to the river. I just really see almost no value in checking this hand to the river. You almost never make more money with this play and you risk letting them beat you for free.

My observations, though I may miss something...

1. There are only two other people in hand on the raise so someone might have the ACE, but probably not.

2. You can assume no 5 because it's a raised pot. They might have it, but there's a bigger chance of them having an ACE.

3. Betting out on the 5 won't scare them away even if they don't have it, because you raised preflop, and you bet the flop. They know you have high cards. They may even bluff raise you representing the 5.

4. If they caught a piece, you might get them pot committed to call you down by building the pot (often people see one more bet for their river, which leads them to see a further river bet because of pot size). The way you did it, they get out cheap if they feel weak when you bet the river. They may just fold.

5. At least one of them was drawing. You had the three K's, one of them may have the 5 or Ace, but the other guy is certainly drawing. I think more likely they were both drawing. Punish the draws. You are guilty of charity. Imagine they payed for their draw, it worked out, and then you hammered them anyway? Fun stuff.

When considering a check raise, you ideally want an overaggressive player in hand, or someone with 2nd nuts believing they are ahead. I find myself check raising when I'm weak on the flop, someone else takes control of the hand, and then the turn improves me to two pair or better. That wasn't the case here. You were the man at the wheel the entire time. Don't slow down and act weak when your trips turn into a house. Do you really think someone else is gonna take command with you having that much of a piece of the board? Not likely.

This is NOT a good opportunity to slow play. I'm not saying it won't work out sometimes, but the risk of losing bets was too great in this case, because there was too much of a chance they had nothing or they were drawing. In those circumstances, you bet strong.

Your friend was correct sir. Improve in the reading people and the board department to determine your moves. It's not about what you have, it's about what they don't. Utilize deductive reasoning. Punish those draws baby!

Bet the turn, reraise if your raised.

the only time the slow play would have worked is when your up against maniac-aggressive players, and you checking will give them the green light to bet.. otherwise, bet the turn.

I'm guessing the button bets the flop if you let him with that flop. I check-raise the flop and bet out on the turn.

Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan

I'm guessing the button bets the flop if you let him with that flop. I check-raise the flop and bet out on the turn.

perhaps an even better play would be check the flop, wait for the bet, just call waiting for the overcall, then again check, waiting for the raise, then reraise.

if you can pull it off, its fun to trap someone in the middle.

Originally Posted by Element187

Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan

I'm guessing the button bets the flop if you let him with that flop. I check-raise the flop and bet out on the turn.

perhaps an even better play would be check the flop, wait for the bet, just call waiting for the overcall, then again check, waiting for the raise, then reraise.

if you can pull it off, its fun to trap someone in the middle.

You don't know that the turn is going to be helpful. The action after you check-raise is going to be weak if you check again. They will likely be thinking trap. I bet the turn and get the money in there.

Bet the turn.

Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan

Originally Posted by Element187

Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan

I'm guessing the button bets the flop if you let him with that flop. I check-raise the flop and bet out on the turn.

perhaps an even better play would be check the flop, wait for the bet, just call waiting for the overcall, then again check, waiting for the raise, then reraise.

if you can pull it off, its fun to trap someone in the middle.

You don't know that the turn is going to be helpful. The action after you check-raise is going to be weak if you check again. They will likely be thinking trap. I bet the turn and get the money in there.

not check raise the flop at all .. smooth call, hope for the overcall, so the original bettor still thinks he's in control, then on the turn when the bets double, apply maxium aggression.

A friend of mine gave me some good advice about slowplaying in limit.

He said "Don't slowplay in limit."

you don't slowplay in LOW limit against calling stations. i think you have to against tight players at higher limits.

Originally Posted by Mr Mojo Risin

Hey there! New to the forums here

Im hoping that a limit master at these forums could help settle a dispute that has come up between me and a friend about a particular hand that occured last night in a $2-$4 game.

Get dealt K K in the Big Blind.
Folds all around, to the button, who raises. Small blind calls, I reraise, both of them call.

Flop comes up A K 5
Small Blind checks, I bet, they both call.

Turn is 5
The Small Blind checks. And I checked also.

Here is where the problem is..... My friend is adamant that the correct play here is to bet, to get as much money in the pot as possible.
However I told him, that I checked because one of two profitable things might happen:
1) button bets, small blind calls, and I can raise it.
or 2) checks all around, and then on the river they might bet or even raise with hands that they would have folded to if I had of bet on the turn.

Seeing as there was two flush draws out there on the turn, I was hoping that someone would get there flush on the river, or that they would be trapped with a hand containing an Ace or a Five.

So would you check or bet the turn?

Thanks

Sorry to tell you this, but your friend is right!

Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan

I'm guessing the button bets the flop if you let him with that flop. I check-raise the flop and bet out on the turn.

Curious, what is your reasoning for this? We 3bet preflop out of the BB. I think a checkraise here is overaggression on an early street. You are going to scare a weak ace off his hand. Play it straightforward - lead the flop. Both called the flop, they have some piece of this. Lead the turn, pray a heart hits the river.

Originally Posted by ChezJ

you don't slowplay in LOW limit against calling stations. i think you have to against tight players at higher limits.

yeah, I think your spot-on here.

Originally Posted by element187

perhaps an even better play would be check the flop, wait for the bet, just call waiting for the overcall, then again check, waiting for the raise, then reraise.

no way I would checkraise both streets here. That would be paramount to wearing a neon sign saying "Beware! Trap!"


Anyway, after I checked the turn the Button bet, small blind called, and I raised it. Small blind thought about it and folded, and big blind called.
River was J I bet, button raised, I reraised, he called and lost (didnt show cards).

Originally Posted by element187

perhaps an even better play would be check the flop, wait for the bet, just call waiting for the overcall, then again check, waiting for the raise, then reraise.

no way I would checkraise both streets here. That would be paramount to wearing a neon sign saying "Beware! Trap!"

i never suggested check raising the flop.

check the flop, let the guy with an ace bet out, smooth call, hoping the third person stays in .. on 4th street, check again to let the ACE think he is in control and winning, and he will bet out when it doubles, then check raise both players at once when the third guy in the hand calls .... but as someone mentioned if your playing against calling stations this would never work, but the typical 4/8 game at the casino, this strat has always made me extra bets.

Originally Posted by Element187

i never suggested check raising the flop.

check the flop, let the guy with an ace bet out, smooth call, hoping the third person stays in .. on 4th street, check again to let the ACE think he is in control and winning, and he will bet out when it doubles, then check raise both players at once when the third guy in the hand calls .... but as someone mentioned if your playing against calling stations this would never work, but the typical 4/8 game at the casino, this strat has always made me extra bets.

sorry I actually misread Gatlin Dans reply to your post, as the way I read it was that you were advocating check raising the flop and turn.

my bad.

Originally Posted by gutshot

Bet the turn.

quoted for intelligence. The only guy to not have to give a justification is usually the guy who is right.

nobody disagrees with betting the turn.. we were just discussing how to play the same hand on different types of tables.

seriously, enough with this thread.

it does us absolutely no good on how to play a hand you're guranteed to win 95% of the time, where the difference between checking and betting is minuscule to your winrate.

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

seriously, enough with this thread.

it does us absolutely no good on how to play a hand you're guranteed to win 95% of the time, where the difference between checking and betting is minuscule to your winrate.

I think this is quite possibly the worst quote I have ever heard on this poker forum. You may be able to be a winning player based off of just knowing which hands to fold and which to stay in, but if you wanna get good at poker and beat the game by a lot, this is exactly the type of situation you need to be able to play right. If you flop 1 hand that you are 95% certain to win every 100 hands and you can get an extra BB or 2 in that hand based off of betting it right, that is an extra 1-2 BB/100 hands. This is where your profit comes from and this is the types of situation that should be being discussed.

Originally Posted by Element187

nobody disagrees with betting the turn.. we were just discussing how to play the same hand on different types of tables.

On a super-tight table where you are sitting with a bunch of 2+2ers, then you may check on the FLOP. You cant check on the turn here after raising the flop. You are opening up yourself to a free card and thus you would lose a bet. Why would you raise the flop for 1/2 BB extra then check the turn to lose a 1 BB?

On anything other than that dont count on your opponents to build your pot for you. Its much better to bet out and build it yourself than hope for someone else to. They will call, its what they do.

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

seriously, enough with this thread.

it does us absolutely no good on how to play a hand you're guranteed to win 95% of the time, where the difference between checking and betting is minuscule to your winrate.

I think this is quite possibly the worst quote I have ever heard on this poker forum. You may be able to be a winning player based off of just knowing which hands to fold and which to stay in, but if you wanna get good at poker and beat the game by a lot, this is exactly the type of situation you need to be able to play right. If you flop 1 hand that you are 95% certain to win every 100 hands and you can get an extra BB or 2 in that hand based off of betting it right, that is an extra 1-2 BB/100 hands. This is where your profit comes from and this is the types of situation that should be being discussed.

werd to your grandmother

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Element187

nobody disagrees with betting the turn.. we were just discussing how to play the same hand on different types of tables.

On a super-tight table where you are sitting with a bunch of 2+2ers, then you may check on the FLOP. You cant check on the turn here after raising the flop. You are opening up yourself to a free card and thus you would lose a bet. Why would you raise the flop for 1/2 BB extra then check the turn to lose a 1 BB?

On anything other than that dont count on your opponents to build your pot for you. Its much better to bet out and build it yourself than hope for someone else to. They will call, its what they do.

super tight table this would be horrible... loose tables the typical .5/1$ tables at party or the 4/8 casinos here in florida, your going to win letting other people raise the pots on the flop for you and with you capping the turn/river... its almost an element of psychology .. if you just meekly call the flop in a highly lag table, you are allowing them to feel like they are ahead, and giving you the chance to get the betting capped on the higher betting streets.

maybe im playing the game wrong, but i like being ultra aggressive on the turn/river as opposed to the flop, unless my hand is vulnerable.

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

seriously, enough with this thread.

it does us absolutely no good on how to play a hand you're guranteed to win 95% of the time, where the difference between checking and betting is minuscule to your winrate.

I think this is quite possibly the worst quote I have ever heard on this poker forum. You may be able to be a winning player based off of just knowing which hands to fold and which to stay in, but if you wanna get good at poker and beat the game by a lot, this is exactly the type of situation you need to be able to play right. If you flop 1 hand that you are 95% certain to win every 100 hands and you can get an extra BB or 2 in that hand based off of betting it right, that is an extra 1-2 BB/100 hands. This is where your profit comes from and this is the types of situation that should be being discussed.

playing situations where you win 60% of the time correctly is way more important than playing in situations where you win 95% of the time correctly.

in a hand like this you're really only hoping for someone else to hit it hard, second best hard. there is nothing else to it.

you bet, they raise, you reraise. you check, they bet, you raise, they reraise. either way, it is a prerequisite that they hit the board. if they don't, you make nothing more by checking because they will just fold the river unimproved.

if they are on a draw, they are calling the turn, no reason to give a free card.

an extra one or two bets in these situations add up over time.

hyper is right, and this same sentiment is expressed in SSH.

playing correctly when you flop TP/2nd pair, which is common, has a hell of a lot more impact on your bankroll than squeezing one more bet out when you flop the nuts/2nd nuts, which is rare.

Originally Posted by Element187

an extra one or two bets in these situations add up over time.

and you're kidding yourself if you really think that the difference between checking and betting for this hand is more than 1BB.

depending on the situation.. the typical .5/1 table at party or my local casino on the 4/8 table, you betcha its value to be docile on the flop and check raise the turn.

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

Originally Posted by Element187

an extra one or two bets in these situations add up over time.

and you're kidding yourself if you really think that the difference between checking and betting for this hand is more than 1BB.

I think you are kidding yourself if you don't think these plays make a significant difference on your bankroll. Yes, how you play in more common situations has a more significant impact, but in the majority of those situations, most of us know the proper way to play. It is in these slightly less common situations where learning how to maximize profit will take us from breakeven to 1BB/100 players to being 2-3+BB/100 players. Yes, you are right that the other situations take us from being losing players to winning players, but it's important to learn every aspect of the game.

I agree with Nehmer.

super tight table this would be horrible

No, it wouldn't, heres why. On the tight tables you arent up against loose passives, you are up against tags, rocks, and tight passives (i.e. the good players). These players will try and represent hands they dont have, stealing pots from whereever they can. Most will bet on the button if checked around to them for the off chance that they can steal a pot. You dont check raise trips on the flop here because you want as many people in the pot as you possibly can.

On a loose table you are up against Loose passive players, the ones willing to call one or two bets to play any hand but not willing to actually bet it themselves. If you check this hand on a loose table you dont give yourself the opportunity to be raised and called by people with worse hands. Value bet more on loose passive tables, they are more likely to call.


....do you see why?

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I agree with Nehmer.

These add up FAST if you are flawed.

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

If Hyper says bet the turn, then you got your expert advice. I mean that sincerely.

While I have nowhere near the experience as Hyper, this is an automatic no-bet on the turn for me. If I was 1st or 2nd to act (you were 2nd) I would check as you did. If I had the button I would bet, after some reflection - lol

Mojo, I would do this for the reasons you note. It's your pot anyway, and besides, it looks like the SB needs to catch a draw in order for you to get any $ out of him, as he checked the turn. Also, your check on the turn may induce the very bet that you hope the button will make.

I would check and risk loosing one bet on the turn in the hope that someone caught a flush or another hand they could not let go on the river.


I noticed others have all voted otherwise, but I just don't get it. If you bet the turn and they fold, you have gained nothing anyway. I'd risk a turn bet for the better chance of a capped river, especially with two flush draws on board.

I have to quit this game I think, because what seems intuitively obvious to me is most often noted as incorrect by others.......yet I'm +EV...go figure.

I was the lone dissenting voice here, and I agree the arguments seem to weigh against what I would do here.

I think Hyper made the best point, here though. This is not a crucial situation for a hand that is 95% yours anyway. I hink the + or - EV here has got to be small enough to leave this up to player and what he thinks is right at the time. Heck..mix it up.

It's a bit like arguing about whether to hit or stay in Blackjack when you have 13 against a dealer's 2 -- the up/downside is not worth the debate.

i never said anyones opininon was wrong in any way .. i was merely suggesting in the typical LAG games i find at PP and my local B$M where people ram and jam with pot with king and ace high, my suggestion fits and works to be most profitable.. (at least to what i have found) i never said its an absolute strat.

different tables call for different strats.




honestly i seriously thought posting completly different ideas on techniques can help everyone.. i never intended it to be a pissing match.

It's a bit like arguing about whether to hit or stay in Blackjack when you have 13 against a dealer's 2 -- the up/downside is not worth the debate.

You mean 12 against a dealer 3

Always stay on 13 v 2!

Just to keep this thread going a little longer:

What if you raised pre flop from EP with

and get 2 cold callers, sb folds, bb calls.

And the flop comes


My vote is bet this every time, whether you are against loose or tough players. I'll give more reasoning later.

Who slowplays this one?

Now what if you are first in from MP with

CO calls, Button raises, BB calls, you call, CO calls.

Flop is :Ac:


I check this one.

Your thoughts?

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Now what if you are first in from MP with

CO calls, Button raises, BB calls, you call, CO calls.

Flop is :Ac:


I check this one.

Your thoughts?

I think checking this flop would be a HUGE mistake. If you bet out, you are almost certain to get raised(possibly reraised) by somebody with AK/AQ/AJ(probably the Button). Once this happens it sets you up perfect for a check/raise on the turn. If you check, you either have to check/raise the flop(bad idea) or get the same check/raise in on the turn except without the extra flop bets. That ace on the board almost gaurantees you some action, no point in slowplaying yourself out of some money.