weird hand, I got trapped but not sure if I played it bad or

1/2 no limit
I have about $340 in front of me, villain has about $450
keep in mind Villain is LAG (playing lots of hands, showed a couple bluffs) I think he is a good player though but has a wide range.

here is how the hand went down.

I pick up QhQs in the BB, Villian has AdAc in the small blind... he raises to $11 preflop, which is a pretty mediocre raise in this game in the casino(usually AQ, AJ, KQ and maybe AK) AA/KK is usually good for $15-$20 preflop. Anyway so I reraise his $11 preflop bet to $22. He reraises me to $50, I smooth call.

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in and he insta calls and flips over you know what! AA

River brings a Qd and I suck him out.

Yes he set a trap and I fell right into it and got very lucky, but Im not sure what I could do in that situation based on the type of player he is.

thoughts ?

I don't like the turn shove honestly. I probably would have just called and see what he does on the river. He could have a AhKh or AhQh, etc and have you drawing dead. I really doubt he has a set here, just for the simple fact that he reraised PF, but then again you never know.

Only thing I would have done different is just call the turn, and see what the river brings, and what he does. Let him bluff/"value bet" his worse made hands, don't make him call you only with hands that beat yours.

Re-raise bigger pre-flop. What's your range there? How much money is behind. Think about it. It's a really important spot that you and most live players don't have a fucking clue how to play. What's his range when he makes it $50? I think you can find a fold there against a lot of live players.

Flop check is meh.

Turn shove is even worse than your pre-flop play. Stop shoving over people who you think are full of it. Do you seriously think he's got AK or JJ here? Why would you shove over AK?

Originally Posted by dranger7070

I don't like the turn shove honestly. I probably would have just called and see what he does on the river. He could have a AhKh or AhQh, etc and have you drawing dead. I really doubt he has a set here, just for the simple fact that he reraised PF, but then again you never know.

Only thing I would have done different is just call the turn, and see what the river brings, and what he does. Let him bluff/"value bet" his worse made hands, don't make him call you only with hands that beat yours.

well if he has AK, AQ, Im ahead the whole way. If I call the turn, I know my money is going in on the river anyway based on the way this guy played previously. I would rather push all in, then call an all in bet anyway.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Re-raise bigger pre-flop. What's your range there? How much money is behind. Think about it. It's a really important spot that you and most live players don't have a fucking clue how to play. What's his range when he makes it $50? I think you can find a fold there against a lot of live players.

Flop check is meh.

Turn shove is even worse than your pre-flop play. Stop shoving over people who you think are full of it. Do you seriously think he's got AK or JJ here? Why would you shove over AK?

Well this guy was playing a wide range of hands and he played this hand the same way he played he bluff. Which is why I did not put him on KK or AA when he reraised me to $50 preflop.

I am ahead of AK on the turn if he has that. I just did not believe him based on his previous play that night. He plays a wide range of hands. I know what your saying though, it was a tough spot.

Why raise more preflop ? how would you have played the hand Fnord if you were me ?

thanks

If he has AK or AQ hes not gonna call your shove, unless he has AK or AQ of hearts which you are drawing dead against. Shoving turn is dumb, just call.

Fnord wants you to raise more PF becuz all you did was minraise. With a one pair hand more than 150bbs deep you are looking to get as low an SPR (Stack to Pot ratio) as possible. You probably should have made it 30-40 to go. That way if he calls (he probably would have reraised again, in which case you can probably muck safely) the pot is bigger in relation to your stack size, and you can profitably get in on flop and turn.

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Well this guy was playing a wide range of hands and he played this hand the same way he played he bluff. Which is why I did not put him on KK or AA when he reraised me to $50 preflop.

Live LAggs don't value 4-bet light often. They call, see flops and put you on Ace King.

How I would play it:

I would re-raise to at least $30, probably more. Depends on how much money he'll call off light.

If re-raised I actually have a decision this deep against a passive 4-bet range. I'd go with my gut.

If we take a flop, all of my money is going in.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Well this guy was playing a wide range of hands and he played this hand the same way he played he bluff. Which is why I did not put him on KK or AA when he reraised me to $50 preflop.

Live LAggs don't value 4-bet light often. They call, see flops and put you on Ace King.

could you explain this concept further ? 4 bet light ?

do you mean calling the blinds is the 1st bet, the villain's raise is the 2nd bet, my reraise is the 3rd bet and then his re-reraise is the 4th bet (light meaning marginal hands) ?

Originally Posted by Fnord

How I would play it:

I would re-raise to at least $30, probably more. Depends on how much money he'll call off light.

If re-raised I actually have a decision this deep against a passive 4-bet range. I'd go with my gut.

If we take a flop, all of my money is going in.

pretty much how I viewed it when I called his $50 reraise. I knew my money was going in, this was the last hand before the table broke.

Yes that is what he means by 4-bet light. Light is another term for marginal hands.

Originally Posted by GahGah604

1/2 no limit
I have about $340 in front of me, villain has about $450
keep in mind Villain is LAG (playing lots of hands, showed a couple bluffs) I think he is a good player though but has a wide range.

here is how the hand went down.

I pick up QhQs in the BB, Villian has AdAc in the small blind... he raises to $11 preflop, which is a pretty mediocre raise in this game in the casino(usually AQ, AJ, KQ and maybe AK) AA/KK is usually good for $15-$20 preflop. Anyway so I reraise his $11 preflop bet to $22. He reraises me to $50, I smooth call.

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in and he insta calls and flips over you know what! AA

River brings a Qd and I suck him out.

Yes he set a trap and I fell right into it and got very lucky, but Im not sure what I could do in that situation based on the type of player he is.

thoughts ?

The only thing I do not like is the turn push a flat call is what would of been better in my eyes there and yes you sucked out! By the way did you track your odds in your head while playing as to what it was to hit one of two Qs left in deck? ( 4% and a little bit by the way)

When playing live I will look at a person's neck for an example here (depends on person, the eyes are covered or transfixed most times and not good for me ) but on neck I will watch a vein or two and see if they grow pulse darken and use that as a tell. <== my trick

Do you have a trick as what to look at. If not find some thing that works for you, it will really bring your game to the next level.

One session of ring games live for example I watched a guy clinch his fists every time he got playable hole cards and would relax clinch if they hit and stay clinched if not hit! Did this player have a tell? Were you looking for them?

If you let neck veins drive your decision process in live games, all I have to say is LOL!

For god sakes, half the time you don't need to look that hard to figure out pretty much where you're at.

I am not sure why people are saying if Villain has 2 hearts Hero is drawing dead. I only see 2 hearts on the board. And Villain can't have Qh; Hero has it.

I think they mean if another heart hits I am drawing dead LOL.

LOL at Fnord's response to the veins hahaha

Originally Posted by GahGah604

He reraises me to $50, I smooth call.

I would hardly call this a smooth call after you already 3bet the guy.

You didn't put him on a big hand when he put in the big 4bet?

ChezJ

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in

Wat??

Originally Posted by ChezJ

Originally Posted by GahGah604

He reraises me to $50, I smooth call.

I would hardly call this a smooth call after you already 3bet the guy.

You didn't put him on a big hand when he put in the big 4bet?

ChezJ

No, because he is very LAAAGISH and showed a flew bluffs prior to this hand.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in

Wat??

I thought he was plain out bluffing or missed completely.

So your read changed between the flop and turn?

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in

Wat??

Originally Posted by bjsaust

So your read changed between the flop and turn?

well when he bet the $80, I just sensed weakness... he did the exact same thing an orbit ago on a stone cold bluff.

It was a weird hand, as I said... he set the trap very nicely. I learned something from this hand though.

My thoughts on this that in a 1-2 NL limit game (live) most players are going to be weak and passive. They will 3 bet, but it will be with AA or KK.

Now, you stated he was not passive. Ok, I can understand you thinking he would 4 bet with less than the nuts, but you forgot one thing. What do you think his image of the rest of the table is?

He knows everyone else is pretty passive. So, when you raise he's putting you on a pretty good hand. His 4 bet pre-flop was the info you needed.

Look at it like this. His image of you is weak (doesn't matter what you really are). When you 3 bet his initial pre-flop raise, in the blind no less, you are telling hi you have a really good hand. If his hand is not strong he is probably going to simply call your re-raise (and hope to outflop you).

He 4 bets it though. He has AA or KK and you are f'd. If he has anything else then he is a maniac, or thought he picked up some kind of weakness in you.

If he was making a move then it would be genius at this level. And it wouldn't have worked anyway, so there is no move to make.

So, yes, I think you played it badly. Good learning experience though, plus you sucked out. So, all is well. This is how we learn. That's how I learned anyway.

Does anyone else see moves that are 4 bets, and are not super powerful hands, pref-flop in a 1-2 NL live game? Where is the game and do you have an open seat? I'm wondering if the games I play in are normal or suiper weak.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Live LAggs don't value 4-bet light often. They call, see flops and put you on Ace King.

/thread

well the cardroom I go too is pretty good, lots of decent players and a handful of semi-pros.

I have been playing for a couple of years and I starting to get noticed as one of the solid players. I still have lots to learn though and I want to learn more. I love poker and I enjoy playing the game. I do research on the game and just enjoy poker!

I learned a lesson as i said, and just last night I woke up with pocket kings and did the same thing that guy did to me stacked him!

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in

Wat??

I thought he was plain out bluffing or missed completely.

then why not just call and let him bluff? instead of shoving and getting called by a better hand a huge portion of the time

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by GahGah604

Flop 10h7h4d - he checks, I check because I smell something funny... not too sure yet, but even his preflop bet smelled funny.

Turn brings a 2c - He bets $80, I push all in

Wat??

I thought he was plain out bluffing or missed completely.

then why not just call and let him bluff? instead of shoving and getting called by a better hand a huge portion of the time

it all ends the same anyway, the pot was so big that my chips were going in. Lets say I let him bet, he would push me all in on the river anyway so why call the all in bet (I would have cuz I think he is bluffing) why not push him all in and let him make that decision ? what if he had kings there and he folds because he thinks I have aces ?