Why blind stealing is so important in 6max limit

Aside from the obvios fact that the blinds come around faster and we dont have time to wait for premium hands, there is ALOT of value in blind steals. For some reason weaker players (or new 6 max players) get crazy when defending, constantly paranoid that their blind is getting ripped off. (of cource whats really happining is due to 6 max play almost every other hand is being raised so tehy feel that their blind is constantly under attack as they get to check their option alot less frequently then in full ring) Any way these players will show down some absolute garbage and call you down ALOT, let me repeat ALOT lighter then they would in a differnt situation. When you do make a hand on the steal you get paid off to a greater extent as you normally have position and the added equity of the "steelee" spewing cash all over. Heres a perfect example from one of my sessions a week or so back. Im stealing a little light but i happen to have a great image and im pretty good post flop agist the weaker type players that hapend to be in the blinds.



STAGE #676173498: HOLDEM NORMAL $0.50/$1 - 2007-06-06 21:44:13 (ET)
Table: EAST ST (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - HERO ($19.65 in chips)
Seat 3 - A11_11N ($2.90 in chips)
Seat 5 - BB PAYOFF BOT ($5.85 in chips)
Seat 6 - ZIM_NICK ($34.02 in chips)
Seat 1 - ISSYD ($24.70 in chips)
A11_11N - Posts small blind $0.25
BB PAYOFF BOT - Posts big blind $0.50


*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO :Qs:
ZIM_NICK - Folds
ISSYD - Folds
HERO - Raises $1 to $1
A11_11N - Folds
BB PAYOFF BOT - Calls $0.50


*** FLOP *** :Kc:
BB PAYOFF BOT - Checks
HERO - Bets $0.50
BB PAYOFF BOT - Calls $0.50
*** TURN *** :Kc:
BB PAYOFF BOT - Checks
HERO - Bets $1
BB PAYOFF BOT - Calls $1
*** RIVER *** :Kc:

BB PAYOFF BOT - Checks
HERO - Bets $1
BB PAYOFF BOT - Calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO - Shows [Qs 9h] (Three of a kind, nines)
BB PAYOFF BOT - Mucks
HERO Collects $6.90 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($7.25) | Rake ($0.35)
Board [9c Kc 2c 9s 6h]
Seat 1: ISSYD Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: HERO (dealer) won Total ($6.90) HI$6.90) with Three of a kind, nines [Qs 9h - B:9s,P:9h,B:9c,B:Kc,P:Qs]
Seat 3: A11_11N (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: BB PAYOFF BOT (big blind) HI: [Mucked] :Ac:
Seat 6: ZIM_NICK Folded on the POCKET CARDS

Wow, never knew guys would make that call. What does he think he beats, LOL. Gotta trap those fish drawing all the time without odds.

These are cool, do you plan on making a strat guide for us lowlimit grinders?

you know i just might , it helps me alot too when i actually write things out.

and yes, what does he think he beats?, A bluff. He thinks im bluffing with a r/b/b/b/ line. Its standerd. Same goes BVB. Your attemt to steal at these levels should be high 30's as you get paid off like slot machine when you hit. (agisnt fish)

Whats you biggest problem with six max? preflop? on the flop? later streets? agression? steals? value bets?

giggle

lollerz

I dont see anything wrong with the flop and turn calls???

Originally Posted by Jibalob

I dont see anything wrong with the flop and turn calls???

Um, did you read the post?

Dude, the turn call is so bad, he needs 4:1 to make that call.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Dude, the turn call is so bad, he needs 4:1 to make that call.

but the pot is ....., oh, never mind. Your right terrible call.

Move up!!

anoter piece of advice: if you're going to play 6 handed, don't call yourself BB PAYOFF BOT

Stealing is important because people call you down very weak? That would be a good reason not to steal as much.

Yeah. The ideal stealing conditions are people who WONT call down light because most often you will hit abso-fucking-lutely nothing. You certainly dont want them threebetting you light. You want them folding preflop or on the flop.

Stealing is so valuable because in a given 1000 hands you'll go around a 6 person table 166.666 times. Each rotation, you pay 3 small blinds (one big blind and one small blind) for exactly 500 small blinds. Follow that? 1000 hands = 500 small blinds. So at a 1/2 game youll pay (0.50 * 500) $250 in blinds per 1000 hands. Or 125BB/1000. Or 12.5BB/100. Clearly mitigating that cost is a HUGE part of your winrate.

And its why the best 6mLHE players are the best players from the blinds.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Dude, the turn call is so bad, he needs 4:1 to make that call.

The turn call is ok...

Unless he puts him on a 9 or made flush a very high percentage of the time, he's got got 4.25:1 + any implied odds to call with a about a 20% chance of winning and a maybe a few more percent change of a tie. And even if he does have the 9 or made flush, he is not that much worse off.

It maybe a marginal turn call. But it is not "so bad".

Besides that, I do hate almost every other aspect of BBPAYOFF's hand. But the turn call is least of my problem with this hand..

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Dude, the turn call is so bad, he needs 4:1 to make that call.

The turn call is ok...

Unless he puts him on a 9 or made flush a very high percentage of the time, he's got got 4.25:1 + any implied odds to call with a about a 20% chance of winning and a maybe a few more percent change of a tie. And even if he does have the 9 or made flush, he is not that much worse off.

It maybe a marginal turn call. But it is not "so bad".

Besides that, I do hate almost every other aspect of BBPAYOFF's hand. But the turn call is least of my problem with this hand..

Lol, um sarcasm much?

Turn call was perfectly fine as was the entire hand IMO.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Lol, um sarcasm much?

haha... sorry, I didn't pick up on that....

But as far as the rest of the hand, it was pretty weak in my opinion. I might not have called PF (depends on Stealer)

To be honest, with that big of a draw, I would have probably played back at him on the flop at least and re-evaluated from there.... more often than not you could have at least avoided a river call (usually saving a SB), and possibly even re-steeling the pot. He probably can't call a flop raise more than the 5:1 pot odds your are getting... if he whiffs with on overcard on the board and no clubs in his hand, it's a tough call for him to make. And if he does hit the nine, as he did, most are going to have a hard time 3-betting with the overcard and no club. If he bets out with a blank turn, you can probably assume he has something and call the turn and fold the river UI.

PS IMO big draws (with decent odds, even if marginal) are great opportunity to play back at a stealer. On one hand, it will give you more opportunities to play back against the stealer and let him know you are not giving up your blinds lightly (but you still have decent odds to draw to). And when if he does see that you will play back at him with a draw, your made hands will get payed off a little more. Wouldn't make my decision solely (or even remotely) on META-game value, but it is a decent bonus.

meah, if i had the A4o i would have played it differently, i sure don't call a bricked draw on the river with Ace high, for starters but i think we all already knew that obvious statement.

My line would have been call PF v an opponent that will have a wide range of open raises from LP, I'm going to be a coin flip a lot of times here unless they have Ax themselves, or some sort of pocket pair, i have an argument for possibly 3betting PF as well, but i wont get into that.

when the flop comes down 3 clubs i have the Ace of clubs i'm thinking of ways to build a pot to give me good odds, i could donk which would confuse a tagg completely (yes it's a blind defense line), or i could c/r (also another blind defense line)... in this case with a big draw i figure to c/r, because it adds a little fold equity right there if the opponent has nothing. If opponent calls then you have odds to c/c or bet/call the turn on a bricked card. but if you check the turn after c/r it's bluntly obvious that you probably have a draw, so i would just follow though majority the time because again if your opponent has shit and was just calling to see what you were doing on the flop then you add fold equity. in this situation of course with your opponent holding 3 of a kind now (but calling the flop to a c/r is a tough call with mid pair on this board) he'll call at least.

river plays it's self, it's straight forward.

as for your play with the Q9, looks fine to me given opponents play.

Call me a spewtard on that river b/c he either has 2pr+ or total air and the pot is big enough to make a call IMO.

Also, lol at everything I said in this thread up to this point, I'm such a sarcastic prick.

FWIW, I pm'ed the people who might have been confused about me joking around and told them that I was not being serious and that the turn call was perfectly reasonable.

Calling with A4o preflop is pretty bad, fanatic.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Calling with A4o preflop is pretty bad, fanatic.

To be honest, I don't have any problem calling PF with the sole purpose of autobetting the flop as an alternative to 3-betting defense preflop (I actually really like doing this).

But, fanatic.....

I agree with euphor, I probably wouldn't be doing it with A40... (maybe with A8o or A7o).

Reason being, as you said your self, fanatic, calling preflop and betting out on the flop gives TAG's fits (love to do it... as a TAG myself, I know I hate it!). But if a TAG is stealing from the SB, his range as decent equity against our A4o. I would probably only be defending against a LAGG with A4o. However, I don't think the call/donk line has as much value against LAGG as it does against TAG's. (I might be wrong here)

So....
- love the call/donk line against TAG's.... but wouldn't be defending much against TAG's with A4o.
- Prefer 3-bet vs call/donk against LAGG

I just don't think the situations line up. So I probably wouldn't be call/donking with A4o. I prefer to 3-bet it against the right opp, or fold it.


Looking forward to your counter-punch, fanatic.


Oops, forget what I just got done saying... forgot stealer was on the BTN, not in the SB. With that in mind, I really would only be defending my blind (with a re-raise) with A4o against very LAGG (but maybe not quite manaic-ish). So, I'm usually just dumping this pf.

I would NEVER fold A4o to a steal raise, unless the guy raising is EXTREMELY tight. Even a TAG would raise a lot of hands your favoured against (KQ, QJ, JT, etc.) and getting 3:1 on the preflop call i'm not folding an Ace, period. If an Ace comes on the flop i play it slow but the fact that i don't reraise preflop or bet out on the flop encourages a lot of guys to bluff an Ace without one in their hand, or bet if they hit middle pair or have a pocket pair or whatever. Then i just c/c the whole way and take it down. If they do have a better Ace well lucky them (unless i hit two pair then i'm getting paid off huge).

And if the flop comes rags or a strong draw i bet out the Ace against a TAG. If he misses the flop no way he's calling without a club. If i were in BB payoff bot's shoes i would be betting that flop, maybe even c/r like was suggested.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I would NEVER fold A4o to a steal raise, unless the guy raising is EXTREMELY tight. Even a TAG would raise a lot of hands your favoured against (KQ, QJ, JT, etc.) and getting 3:1 on the preflop call i'm not folding an Ace, period.

Well, to each his own.... if you are a far better post flop player than your opponent, then you might be able to use that to your advantage.

But FWIW, A4o is only 50/50 against a 50% stealer's range. So sure, you are getting 3:1, but you are out of position and your reverse implied odds suck. So, in my opinion our poor situation and good pot odds kind of wash out against a 50% stealer. So, if he steals less and his range is tighter, I think we are in trouble.

Also, you are 3:1 to call.... but I don't think calling A4o is a good idea. If you are going to play it, I think you are better off playing hands like A4o for a raise (hands with decent showdown potential, but suffer from reverse implied odds)... and that will bring your pot odds down to 2:1.

But, as I said... to each his own... if you can out play the crap out of him post flop... then it might be worthwhile. But as a general line, I personally don't care for it.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I would NEVER fold A4o to a steal raise, unless the guy raising is EXTREMELY tight. Even a TAG would raise a lot of hands your favoured against (KQ, QJ, JT, etc.) and getting 3:1 on the preflop call i'm not folding an Ace, period. If an Ace comes on the flop i play it slow but the fact that i don't reraise preflop or bet out on the flop encourages a lot of guys to bluff an Ace without one in their hand, or bet if they hit middle pair or have a pocket pair or whatever. Then i just c/c the whole way and take it down. If they do have a better Ace well lucky them (unless i hit two pair then i'm getting paid off huge).

And if the flop comes rags or a strong draw i bet out the Ace against a TAG. If he misses the flop no way he's calling without a club. If i were in BB payoff bot's shoes i would be betting that flop, maybe even c/r like was suggested.

This is some stinkin thinking. Even getting 3:1, the fact that your OOP and villain gets to bet his best hands while checking behind and freecarding with his worse means even when youre 60/40 ahead, you simply won't make the difference up postflop. Calling is absolutely a losing play. Raising is probably a losing play too, but its certainly less of a losing play and atleast its good for the image.

I would never fold Ax to a minraise from the SB or from a bad player in other positions.

i have a lot more reasons then it appears for my call with A4o here...

1) i know exactly how a tagg will typically play a given hand post flop i play the exact same way, so i'd almost be leaning to 3 betting it PF 2bh...

2) against Kx, Qx, Jx, Tx i'm ahead about 55-45, Ax i'm behind 70-30 about, 22 and 33 i'm a coin flip, 44-KK i'm behind 70-30 again, AA i'm dead to 92-8, so in reality only one hand has you completely up shit creak... given that when 3 betting you have the upper hand you can tell exactly where the tagg is at in the hand come the flop, i'd guess 90% of the time... or at least you should be asking yourself what would i be doing if the roles of position were reversed, what kind of hand might i have here.

3) we get into meta game, if this tagg that is stealing realizes you will defend your blind randomly with a wide range of hands and do it well then that tagg will think twice before trying to take your money again, if he tightens up then you tighten your defense plays it's got a parallel relationship, more they steal more you 3 bet them with marginal hands, the less they steal have a bettor hand, not exactly rocket science.

4) most importantly as a tagg you should NEVER have another tagg on your right! you wont find yourself in this situation! Put some lose passive dumb ass to your right who wont steal!!! Table position people

If you require a stronger hand than this to defend against a steal raise, then you will be giving away too much money from the blinds in any moderately aggressive short-handed game.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I would never fold Ax to a minraise from the SB or from a bad player in other positions.

PSsttt.. SHNL forum is a few up from here hehe

I look at it like this: If I call the steal raise with a weak Ace, then if another Ace flops it's twice as likely I'm ahead as I'm dominated. I.e., 18% chance an Ace flops if i have the only one, 9% chance it flops if we both have one.

If an Ace flops I check, and 99/100 times the TAG will bet whether he has an Ace or not. The only time he might not bet is if he has something like 66 and the flop is AQ8 or something like that. I c/c the flop, and if he checks the turn i lead out on the river. Often he will hit middle pair when an Ace flops and my lack of aggression will make him bet on every street for value. I c/c him down and I'm golden.

I am playing 1/2 and 2/4 mostly so maybe it's different at the higher levels but I find i make a modest profit calling with a weak Ace to a steal raise compared to folding preflop. It's not a profit overall but I definitely lose less than the 1 SB/ hand I would lose by folding.

DrivingDog wrote:
I would NEVER fold A4o to a steal raise, unless the guy raising is EXTREMELY tight. Even a TAG would raise a lot of hands your favoured against (KQ, QJ, JT, etc.) and getting 3:1 on the preflop call i'm not folding an Ace, period. If an Ace comes on the flop i play it slow but the fact that i don't reraise preflop or bet out on the flop encourages a lot of guys to bluff an Ace without one in their hand, or bet if they hit middle pair or have a pocket pair or whatever. Then i just c/c the whole way and take it down. If they do have a better Ace well lucky them (unless i hit two pair then i'm getting paid off huge).

And if the flop comes rags or a strong draw i bet out the Ace against a TAG. If he misses the flop no way he's calling without a club. If i were in BB payoff bot's shoes i would be betting that flop, maybe even c/r like was suggested.

Euphoricism wrote:
This is some stinkin thinking. Even getting 3:1, the fact that your OOP and villain gets to bet his best hands while checking behind and freecarding with his worse means even when youre 60/40 ahead, you simply won't make the difference up postflop. Calling is absolutely a losing play. Raising is probably a losing play too, but its certainly less of a losing play and atleast its good for the image.

Sorry but if calling with a hand that's 50% against villian's range is wrong then what do you call with? By that logic you should fold K9+, QJ, etc. as well. I know the kicker is bad but it's still a decent hand getting 3.5:1 and you can fold the flop if it looks ugly. Villian already has position so if he's any good he is going to bet his best hands and checking behind and freecarding with his worst in any case. Sorry but i need that one explained to me.


[/quote]

Sorry but if calling with a hand that's 50% against villian's range is wrong then what do you call with?

You shouldnt really be calling with any hands at all. Raise or fold.

You should raise anything that beats his range, and fold anything that doesnt. You should also fold anything that exactly ties his range, due to his positional advantage.

Ahhh, but what about the dead money from the SB?

As much as i respect (and generally benefit from) your opinion Eupho, I'm afraid i can't go along with this....

Say the button is stealing with 30% of his hands - reasonably tight - and you are folding 85% and re-raising 15%. So he is getting an automatic profit 85% of the time he raises (assuming the SB folds), and when you 3bet, he can confidently put you on a premium hand that may or may not be better than his and often includes an Ace. He's getting 5.5:1 to call a re-raise so presumably you are not going to pick up the pot right there.

If i were the button, assuming the SB is fairly passive, i would soon be raising 50% of my hands in a steal situation because I will get your blind without a fight 75% of the time. But 25% of the time you 3 bet me and I can either call or fourbet. Since I raise 50% of the time and you re-raise with 25% of your hands, that means about half the time you 3 bet me i will be ahead and the other half behind, and if i'm way ahead i can fourbet or slowplay depending on how aggressive you are after the flop. I can live with that.

So i assume the 3bet means you will c-bet the flop? Well guess what - if i catch any piece of that flop (or even sometimes when i miss but am reasonably sure you missed too or that i'm ahead anyways) I'm raising the flop. Then what are you going to do if you missed? Call down with maybe 6 or fewer outs? I hope so.

I know of no expert who advocates playing blind defense so tightly. For example, Grudizen and Herzog argue that you should at least call a steal-raise in the BB whenever you have 35% equity or better against the stealer's range (yes that's a lot of hands). Their advice is to usually see a flop and if you connect at all, c/r and lead the turn. Exceptions are when you flop a monster (slowplay if conditions are right) or have a weak Ace or King and flop top pair (play passively because you are either way ahead and want to induce bluffs or way behind and want to save bets).

Sklanksy argues that an aggressive blind stealer only needs to get away with it about 30% of the time to show an automatic profit. Therefore, you have to call a lot with hands that are probably behind to avoid being an easy mark. In a HU situation, you will sometimes come across a player who raises every time they're on the button. If he's raising 100% of the time, then i'm not raising/folding 50/50%. More like raise 30%, call 60% and fold 10%. I generally want to see flops before i decide how good or bad my hand is.

Maybe you've found the raise/fold strategy works well for you in blind defense, and if so all the more power to you. I don't want to tread on your toes, but i'd be interested in knowing how you run because if it's as good as or better than me (-.16BB, though this is at 1/2 so take with a grain of salt) then I would like to hear how you handle the flop and beyond, since it could be instructive to me (as so many of your posts on other aspects of the game have been).

p.s. sorry my math was off there. If I steal-raise 50% of the time and you re-raise 25%, then I will be behind about 75% of the time and ahead 25%. But, I will always know I'm behind whenever I'm below your re-raising range and have a reasonable idea of when I'm ahead. Getting 5.5:1 to call i'm never folding a steal-raise here.

I very well may be way off. I havent played LHE in months and months.

Further, any sort of advantage I give up by being a little tight vs blind steals I make up by stealing liberally myself. It probably comes out to close to a wash, with the real money being made and lost postflop.

I believe over defending to be a way larger leak than under defending.

Blind play was never a place I was excellent at, though, so I'll fully concede I may be wrong. I played it very player-dependently. If I noticed you were "quickly raising 50% of my hands in steal situations", I certainly wouldn't play you the same way as I would if you were still only raising 20%. Thats a pretty big assumption to make.

And I'm not going to get in an e-penis waving contest over whose BB winrate is less negative.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I very well may be way off. I havent played LHE in months and months.

Further, any sort of advantage I give up by being a little tight vs blind steals I make up by stealing liberally myself. It probably comes out to close to a wash, with the real money being made and lost postflop.

I believe over defending to be a way larger leak than under defending.

Blind play was never a place I was excellent at, though, so I'll fully concede I may be wrong. I played it very player-dependently. If I noticed you were "quickly raising 50% of my hands in steal situations", I certainly wouldn't play you the same way as I would if you were still only raising 20%. Thats a pretty big assumption to make.

And I'm not going to get in an e-penis waving contest over whose BB winrate is less negative.

Well you are probably right that raising your good hands is the right play when defending and liberally stealing is also appealing to me. Btw, no penis waving intended. It's difficult to express yourself accurately AND be diplomatic at times, although i was making an effort to straddle that line believe me. I'm only interested in hearing different views and ways to improve my game. And if you had some amazing system that let you kill in blind defense then i wanted to hear more about it! Anyways, there's probably no one correct approach so it's best to keep an open mind i figure. We cool?

Its been far too long since I played LHE seriously to comment on my blind strategies. I made *tons* of posts on it though, it was probably the part of the game i worked most on. Searching the sh forums for my posts from 6-12 months ago will probably bring tons and tons of hands.

And of course were cool :]

The simple math is that the stealer (if not in the SB) needs to succeed 58% of the time to show an immediate profit.

EV = (1.5sb * 58% win) + (-2sb * 42% lose) = +0.03sb



So, in order to thwart his steal attempts, you should be defending against him at least 60% of the time. Or sixty percent of his range. So, if he steals 50% of the time (or top 50% of hands) you should be defending with the top 30% (FWIW... A40 is boarder lining on the outside of 30% range).

Depending on how much better you play against him post flop, you can probably play more hands. But, for me, sticking around 60% or so, allows me to defend enough enough to spoil the steal attempts, yet gives me enough equity to make up for my positional disadvantage, IMO.

Just my 2 cents...

it's not just defending a certain % of time. you still get your ass handed to you if you fold to all the cbets.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

it's not just defending a certain % of time. you still get your ass handed to you if you fold to all the cbets.

IMO, flop play is just a continuation of my pf blind defense... When I just call, I know I'm putting money in on the flop a lot.

But I think that is a good argument for not going crazy and defending too much more than 60% of the stealer's range.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

it's not just defending a certain % of time. you still get your ass handed to you if you fold to all the cbets.

Folding to all the c-bets is obviously not an option, but calling c-bets with little or no hope is obviously even worse. I generally fold to about 40-50% of the c-bets. I do like the Grudizen & Herzog idea of c/r'ing the flop and leading the turn every time you catch any piece of the flop (I might also do this occassionally with a big Ace or as a complete bluff). You'll hit the flop or have a pp about 40% of the time (depending on if you're suited and/or connected), and if he misses roughly 60% (and isn't already paired) then the chances you are ahead when you catch a piece of the flop are pretty decent. If he missed the flop and you c/r'ed him, and he misses the turn too, then unless he is completely paranoid about being bluffed he'll probably pack it in.

They also argue you should call the flop whenever you have two cards higher than the middle card on the board (e.g., you have K7 and the flop is T63), and lead or c/r when one of these cards hits on the turn, depending on the texture of the board. They also argue for often c/c'ing the whole way with A high, again depending on the texture of the board and the stealer's range. And if you pick up a flush draw on the turn you should c/r that as well, so they say - but that probably works better at the higher levels where opponents are actually capable of folding an overcard to a c/r on the turn!

So yes you have to fold a fair amount of the time to a c-bet. But once the stealer gets the idea that you're willing to play a wide range of hands in blind defense (making it hard to put you on anything), and that you're going to play these hands strongly when you hit, he may be less inclined to c-bet the flop when he gets air.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

The simple math is that the stealer (if not in the SB) needs to succeed 58% of the time to show an immediate profit.

EV = (1.5sb * 58% win) + (-2sb * 42% lose) = +0.03sb



So, in order to thwart his steal attempts, you should be defending against him at least 60% of the time. Or sixty percent of his range. So, if he steals 50% of the time (or top 50% of hands) you should be defending with the top 30% (FWIW... A40 is boarder lining on the outside of 30% range).

Depending on how much better you play against him post flop, you can probably play more hands. But, for me, sticking around 60% or so, allows me to defend enough enough to spoil the steal attempts, yet gives me enough equity to make up for my positional disadvantage, IMO.

Just my 2 cents...

I lke calling with a wider range than i'm being raised with. I think the basic question to ask yourself is can you do better with your two cards oop than the -0.5 BB/hand you get by folding -- and with a lot of hands i think you can. Even calling with a seemingly 'weak' hand like 65s (which is about as low as i'll normally go) here is ok to me, because you're implied odds are high and you are going to know right away on the flop if you like your hand or not.

Imagine your opponent c-bets 100% of the time on the flop, and you follow the strategy of c/r'ing whenever you catch a flush draw, pair, OESD. or top end of a gutshot. Assume for this example you never bluff. With 65s that means you will c/r almost 50% of the time. So 50% of the time you fold your six-high to his c-bet, losing 1 BB (at least you're not worried about folding the best hand!). Maybe 10% (or more) of the time you c/r and he folds, and you gain 1.75 BB. Maybe another 10% you c/r and he calls you down to chase his overcards or A high, folding on the turn or river when he misses. You might gain 2.75 BB on average. You'll complete your flush or straight draw on the turn or river about 10% of the time and you might gain 3.25 BB on average here, depending on your opponent and whether he continues to the river or folds the turn.

Of course bad things can happen too. Maybe 10% he re-raises your c/r and the board is scary so you call with your bottom pair and c/f the turn if you don't improve. You might lose 2.5 BB on average. And maybe 10% of the time he re-raises or calls you down to the river with a better hand, draws out to an overcard vs. your bottom pair, and/or you miss your draw(s), costing you 5 BB.

All told in these various scenarios you lose about 70% of the time and your EV is -.24 BB. That is still a lot better than folding preflop. Obviously this analysis is imprecise and doesn't cover all the possible outcomes and you may end up losing more than that with a hand like 65s against tighter opponents who will not payyou off with Ace high but will charge you to draw when they're pretty sure they're ahead.

But i like defending with hands like this because like i said it will be pretty clear on the flop whether the hand is worth taking further or not. Also these hands have deceptive value because most players won't defend with them. For example if you have 65s and the flop comes K43 rainbow and you c/r, he's probably putting you on a King , 33+, or maybe A5-A2, but not 65. Or on the rare occasions it comes with two sixes, two fives or a six and five, he will rarely suspect how far behind he is when you c/r the flop. If he has a middle pp or better on a big-little-little rainbow flop like this he will probably jam you, in which case you can c/c the turn if you miss your draw or c/r your trips or two pair. And if a 7 or 2 that completes your straight comes on the turn or river, chances are he's going to think it 's a blank and you can get some nice value bets in there as well.

Again the question to me is not whether I will be a favorite whenever I call a steal raise but whether my EV will be better than -.5 BB. I don't think you need to be ahead preflop to manage this and also i think you can do it while pretty much always folding to a c-bet when you have no pair, and no 6+ out draw to middle pair or better.

Here's an example of defending with a weak hand against an opponent who steal-raises 40% from the button, but plays reasonably well postflop. Admittedly the river bet was a bit spewy and i might have got him to bluff if i'd checked and feigned a busted FD, so probably not optimum play. If he'd raised the turn or river i'd have packed it in.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 4.
1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7, 2, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB