AA or KK right?

Played a few orbits with this opp and he seems tight enough, ala i dont see him 4 betting AKs preflop. Am I getting good enough odds, all things considered for the pre-flop call?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($14.80)
Hero ($10.85)
UTG ($19.85)
UTG+1 ($23.50)
MP1 ($17.40)
MP2 ($19.85)
CO ($10.05)
Button ($9.35)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q.
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $0.3, 2 folds, Button calls $0.30, SB calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.8, UTG raises to $3.3, MP1 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($7.50) T, 8, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $16.55 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $7.50

definate mistake not betting the flop IMO - you gave up your positional advantage. Even if he doesn't push like he did, you're given him a free turn card. Chances are he's going to be betting any pp when it gets to him, the size of his bet makes me think he didn't want any more action from you, so you may well have had him beat at the flop.

**Disclaimer I'm a novice**

utg limp + rr pf is usually AA or KK at these stakes, very occasionally something else. its the average donk's way of "outsmarting the opposition, ha".


i, however, always assume the people i'm up against are competent until i've seen them commit at least two major boo-boo's.


you do realize you've played QQ for set value here, no?

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

definate mistake not betting the flop IMO - you gave up your positional advantage. Even if he doesn't push like he did, you're given him a free turn card. Chances are he's going to be betting any pp when it gets to him, the size of his bet makes me think he didn't want any more action from you, so you may well have had him beat at the flop.

**Disclaimer I'm a novice**

Slevin, he currently has positional disadvantage in this situation, as he is the bb, and the utg was the villain. Since hero has to act first each round he is out of position and at a severe DISADVANTAGE. I havent really read a ftr link lately that really dealt with position, theres probably one in the stickies but i recently saw something on 2p2 that might help you out.
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...=4#Post6584735

its basically a list of reasons playing IP is >>>>>>>better than playing OoP.

As to the Origional Poster, i might raise a bit less pre but i dont see anything wrong with just betting the pot here like u did. I think raising anywhere from 1.1-2.0 is a good amount. Obviously the smaller ones give better odds for a bunch of calling stations, but many micros see a 3b and duck and cover even if they called the first raise. IMO, everything afterwords is heavily read dependent. He can have AK, AQ, 44+ imo, though 44-88 is highly discounted as theres only been a few opponents that ive seen play these hands in this fashion. Most likely, this is AK,QQ+ but i wouldnt be surprised if i saw any of the other hands i mentioned. However, im not playing QQ for set value here, im either felting it pre or calling to induce this type of flop action. To your question though, u have to call 1.5 to win a pot of 3+7.5(your remaining stack, cant take more than this from op if we stack him) so your getting in the neighborhood of 1:7 which isnt exactly the 1:15 or 1:10 size we want if we are trying to flop a set. Because of this, we have to decide right now if we have the best hand or not.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

definate mistake not betting the flop IMO - you gave up your positional advantage.

Being first to act is not a positional advantage. The one with the positional advantage is the person who is last to act.

Pretty sure 4bet is >QQ at these stakes with villains been super nitty preflop with 3b and 4b's. So I fold pre.

If I call pre, this is the flop I wanted and I c/c the all-in. Versus a super spewy, agroo villain I coudl also 5bet push pre.

You need $1.5 more to call the 4bet and eff stacks will be like $6.7ish which is 6.7:1.5 which is 4.7:1 and to call pre for set odds you need at least 8:1

I've done it again. I keep doing this. I read being able to act first as an advantage as you have the first opportunity to show strength by betting. Yeah completely wrong I know, but I keep slipping back into that mindset... hmm...

Originally Posted by JKDS

To your question though, u have to call 1.5 to win a pot of 3+7.5(your remaining stack, cant take more than this from op if we stack him) so your getting in the neighborhood of 1:7 which isnt exactly the 1:15 or 1:10 size we want if we are trying to flop a set. Because of this, we have to decide right now if we have the best hand or not.

Thats not quite right. There are a few callers to the first raise and when I call the 4 bet the pot is $7.50. Soooo... Im calling $1.50 to a pot of $6+$7.50 (my remaining stack). This gives me 9:1 which of course is still not quite enough to call for set value (10:1 minimum, pref more) which is what I was doing . Soooo... I see the call was at best a small mistake, right?

Ahh, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

definate mistake not betting the flop IMO - you gave up your positional advantage. Even if he doesn't push like he did, you're given him a free turn card.

Slevin dude, you rock! Ive seen you been corrected on this many times before. Repeat after me "1st to act bad, last to act gooooood"

i really should check my math sometimes. Good catch.

lol nl10 plays retarded. i dont know where to start.

Originally Posted by Squizzel

lol nl10 plays retarded. i dont know where to start.

lollollollol

Originally Posted by Squizzel

lol nl10 plays retarded. i dont know where to start.

I'm sure to you it does, but remember we all have to start somewhere

Originally Posted by xptboy

lollollollol

Wow, intelligent input. Good man

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

utg limp + rr pf is usually AA or KK at these stakes, very occasionally something else. its the average donk's way of "outsmarting the opposition, ha".


i, however, always assume the people i'm up against are competent until i've seen them commit at least two major boo-boo's.


you do realize you've played QQ for set value here, no?

QFT

You're OOP against the 4bettor (most likely AA, KK) so yes, you're pretty much playing this for set odds. I prefer 15:1 (which you're not getting on the $1.50 raise) but would prolly be okay w/ 8:1 in this case 'cause he obv loves his hand and you can prolly stack him if you hit (unless it's KK and the flop spikes an A maybe....). I'm hung over so I'll be lazy and not do the math, but at quick glance I don't even think you're getting 8:1 which is the balls minimum for set-hunting assuming your QQ is already behind.

Assuming my maths above is good... I'm folding to the 4-bet. IF my math is bad and i call the 4-bet, I check/fold the flop.

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

utg limp + rr pf is usually AA or KK at these stakes, very occasionally something else. its the average donk's way of "outsmarting the opposition, ha".


i, however, always assume the people i'm up against are competent until i've seen them commit at least two major boo-boo's.


you do realize you've played QQ for set value here, no?

QFT

You're OOP against the 4bettor (most likely AA, KK) so yes, you're pretty much playing this for set odds. I prefer 15:1 (which you're not getting on the $1.50 raise) but would prolly be okay w/ 8:1 in this case 'cause he obv loves his hand and you can prolly stack him if you hit (unless it's KK and the flop spikes an A maybe....). I'm hung over so I'll be lazy and not do the math, but at quick glance I don't even think you're getting 8:1 which is the balls minimum for set-hunting assuming your QQ is already behind.

Assuming my maths above is good... I'm folding to the 4-bet. BUT my math is bad and i call the 4-bet, I check/fold the flop.

As played