AA strategies

[edit] Let me start out by saying that this is NOT a thread for complaining about how much you hate pocket aces. I LOVE that hand.

I find myself playing at LAggy 1/2NL tables a lot. So, there are a lot of straddles, and the occasional re-straddle -- not to mention plenty of out-of-position raises with marginal hands, medium pairs, etc.

So, when I get AA (or, sometimes, KK), I frequently find myself looking at a juicy pot before the action even gets to me pre-flop. So, usually (but not always), I'm re-raising, or even re-re-raising.

Of course, this leads to 3 or 4-handed, $200 flops. I am fortunate enough that I've only lost my ass once in this situation, but I generally end up pushing the rest of my chips in on the flop (unless it's a 3-card straight or flush or a paired board) in order to bet as close to the pot size as possible.

Truthfully, the same is true when I have KK -- especially since 11 of my last 12 KK hands have played out with NO ACES on the board.

My question is this: am I spending too much time all-in when I have AA? I'm trying to be more wary of the tendency to move in when only a better hand can call...so do I have a positive expectation in the long run here? It seems like it could go either way...

Originally Posted by Molinero

am I spending too much time all-in when I have AA? I'm trying to be more wary of the tendency to move in when only a better hand can call...so do I have a positive expectation in the long run here? It seems like it could go either way...

We are talking about AA right? A better hand can't call AA. I suppose Joker Joker might be better. My bad.

If someone raises heavy into your aces preflop you immediately push all your chips in. Don't call a big raise. That will lead to more calls from other players, and your odds get spunked. Push all your chips in against any good raise before you. Your intention by doing that is primarily to steal the current money on the table.

The fact is, if your at a loose aggressive table, your probably going to find yourself all in with your aces a lot. I can think of worse things. Your playing right in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

We are talking about AA right? A better hand can't call AA. I suppose Joker Joker might be better. My bad.

If you read a bit more carefully, you'll see I'm talking about when I am the aggressor, and I have re-raised, and yet still see the flop 3- or 4-handed.

As I said, if I go all-in here, I am concerned that the only hands that'll call me have me beat -- a set or crappy two pair, for instance.

[edit] I have and will again push all-in preflop with AA...I have NO problem with that.

well you said you find yourseflf reraising and re reraising .. instead of re reraising again, just push em in and let everyone chase you.


if there is a raise in EP, 1 or 2 callers, action is on you ... you push with AA... you should be happy about winning the money that is currently on the table, reraising back anything not an all in gives them good enough implied odds to call and try to catch a flop and put you to the test. but im a limit player sooo

Originally Posted by Molinero

Originally Posted by Rondavu

We are talking about AA right? A better hand can't call AA. I suppose Joker Joker might be better. My bad.

If you read a bit more carefully, you'll see I'm talking about when I am the aggressor, and I have re-raised, and yet still see the flop 3- or 4-handed.

As I said, if I go all-in here, I am concerned that the only hands that'll call me have me beat -- a set or crappy two pair, for instance.

[edit] I have and will again push all-in preflop with AA...I have NO problem with that.

you shouldnt have to be seeing a flop with AA if its raised from someone in EP and a few callers before the action gets to you.

Thanks guys. I'm fairly happy with my pre-flop play of AA -- no problems there.

I am seeking advice POST flop.

At the game you describe, I imagine you'll get callers with top pair hands, probably even draws and middle pairs too. If the pot is so big already that the closest you can get to a pot-sized bet after the flop is to push AI, then that's probably you're only option. You may want to check in EP once in a while in one of these pots for deception purposes/to induce a bluff.

I'd proceed very cautiously with a big pair seeing the flop with 3+ people... no reason to go broke in a very, very marginal situation.

edit: what chez said, anytime you have a reason to push AA preflop, DO IT!

you say you are happy with your pre-flop play and yet you express concern about getting multiple callers to your re-raise.

the solution is to RE-RAISE ALL-IN so there is no post-flop play to consider.

your question is whether you are spending too much time all-in with aces. the answer is you are not spending enough time all-in with aces. you are giving multiple opponents a 3-card chance to catch up with you before going all-in. why would you do that?

ChezJ

Originally Posted by ChezJ

you say you are happy with your pre-flop play and yet you express concern about getting multiple callers to your re-raise.

the solution is to RE-RAISE ALL-IN so there is no post-flop play to consider.

your question is whether you are spending too much time all-in with aces. the answer is you are not spending enough time all-in with aces. you are giving multiple opponents a 3-card chance to catch up with you before going all-in. why would you do that?

ChezJ

some peoples reasoning is to take even more money on later streets ??

if someone raises in EP, 2 or 3 people call it before the action gets to me, im pushing all in, and anyone who wants to come along for the ride can.

thats the situation he described to me, except he is just reraising large (not an all in) and people are following him to the flop.

this is where i see a fault, by letting the people who called the first raise in to the see the flop, your putting yourself in a dificult situation.. did your opponents catch a huge part of the flop or not, etc. .. if you push all in after a few callers to the original raise, your putting them to the test with the rest of their stack, not yours.

obviously if i am first to act i'm not going all-in. i want 1 caller maybe 2. but if it's raised/re-raised before me or after me, then it's definitely "stop.... hammer time."

Originally Posted by ChezJ

you say you are happy with your pre-flop play and yet you express concern about getting multiple callers to your re-raise.

the solution is to RE-RAISE ALL-IN so there is no post-flop play to consider.

your question is whether you are spending too much time all-in with aces. the answer is you are not spending enough time all-in with aces. you are giving multiple opponents a 3-card chance to catch up with you before going all-in. why would you do that?

ChezJ

Let me be plain here.

If, at a 1/2 NL game, there is a $10 raise ahead of me, I am not going to move all-in, no matter how many people have called. THAT is foolishness.

If, at a 1/2 NL game, there is a $10 raise and a $20 re-raise, I am not going to move all-in unless I'm last to act and most of the table has already called the re-raise. I will re-raise it to about the size of the pot, depending on the number of players left to act behind and how many callers there already are.

If at any time MY raise is re-raised, THEN I'm moving in.

Furthermore, if I am fairly sure I'm head to head with AA or KK, why move-in? The only way I can beat AA is if they fold (or I catch runner-runner flush). Either way, I WANT to go head to head with a big pair.

[edit] AA is not best played by massively overbetting the pot. It's not so damned vulnerable that you MUST NOT see a flop. I HATE when people play AA that way, just from an aesthetic point of view.

Nevermind. Forget I asked.

Originally Posted by Molinero

Let me be plain here.

If, at a 1/2 NL game, there is a $10 raise ahead of me, I am not going to move all-in, no matter how many people have called. THAT is foolishness.

explain your theory... 10$ raise, three other people called, action is on you.. why not push all in and take down whats on the table already?? you are getting greedy and asking to get drawn out on by letting these players see the flop.. be happy with whats out there.. if someone calls, you have the best of it.

Originally Posted by Molinero

If, at a 1/2 NL game, there is a $10 raise and a $20 re-raise, I am not going to move all-in unless I'm last to act and most of the table has already called the re-raise. I will re-raise it to about the size of the pot, depending on the number of players left to act behind and how many callers there already are.

again, i dont see the point of not pushing all in to take whats out there already, if someone wants to call, let them, again you have the best of it.

Originally Posted by Molinero

If at any time MY raise is re-raised, THEN I'm moving in.

no brainer

Originally Posted by Molinero

Furthermore, if I am fairly sure I'm head to head with AA or KK, why move-in? The only way I can beat AA is if they fold (or I catch runner-runner flush). Either way, I WANT to go head to head with a big pair.

AA against AA doesnt happen often enough to worry about .. you have AA and your opponent has KK .. great, get all their money in preflop before they realize they are beat.. KK will more then likely call an all in preflop.

Originally Posted by Molinero

[edit] AA is not best played by massively overbetting the pot. It's not so damned vulnerable that you MUST NOT see a flop. I HATE when people play AA that way, just from an aesthetic point of view.

i dont care what it looks like, i rather play it this way, keeps all the tough decisions on your opponents, so your not second guessing yourself if your opponent hit something or not... when you can move all in with AA preflop, your going to be called by a lesser hand 99% of the time, and then 1% tie

ok maybe im a clueless limit player, but this is how i play no limit.

limit, i only 3 bet it preflop if i can, and ram jam the flop,turn,river til i face resistance then slow down.

I have played with far too many people who push it in and take down the blinds because they are afraid to play poker when they get AA. "I hate aces...they always lose." Eff that, I say. If they want to see a flop, let them -- but they won't see it on the cheap. Furthermore, if they still have chips left, there's a possibility I can end the hand. If we're all in, there is no way to stop the suck out if it's gonna happen.

So, I guess I'm seeking input from experienced NL players. If you happen to be in a 3-handed flop (or even heads up), with about the amount of the pot left in your stack, do you think it's always appropriate to move it in?

EXAMPLE.

$25 NL, $0.12/$0.25 blinds
10 handed and loose (calling pre flop raises of $2.50 6way)
i just blew out publicly on a bluff that turned into trip 9's but lost to a flush.
this is my first hand after rebuying.

Hand #46851931 at table: Table TH257
Started: Mon May 02 17:49:59 2005 <-- just a few minutes ago

bossbliss posts the large blind $0.25
pp25 posts the small blind $0.12

ChezJ: Ac, Ad

Pre-flop:

BFX: Call $0.25
Stan Smith: Fold
SecreTRooM: Call $0.25
Jai: Raise $1.50
fantamania: Call $1.50
ChezJ: All-in
Bager99: Fold
pp25: Fold
bossbliss: Fold
BFX: Fold
SecreTRooM: Fold
Jai: All-in
fantamania: Fold

Flop (Board: 9c, 7d, 9h):
Turn (Board: 9c, 7d, 9h, Kd):
River (Board: 9c, 7d, 9h, Kd, Ah):

Showdown:

ChezJ shows: Ac, Ad (full house)
Jai shows: Qs, Qh (two pair, Queens and Nines)

Mainpot:
ChezJ wins the pot of $36.81 with full house

($1.90 rake were taken for this hand)



now you tell me you are comfortable pushing all-in on a flop like that.

ChezJ

Originally Posted by Molinero

I have played with far too many people who push it in and take down the blinds because they are afraid to play poker when they get AA. "I hate aces...they always lose." Eff that, I say. If they want to see a flop, let them -- but they won't see it on the cheap. Furthermore, if they still have chips left, there's a possibility I can end the hand. If we're all in, there is no way to stop the suck out if it's gonna happen.

So, I guess I'm seeking input from experienced NL players. If you happen to be in a 3-handed flop (or even heads up), with about the amount of the pot left in your stack, do you think it's always appropriate to move it in?

you just said someone in EP raises 4-5x the BB a few people call before the action gets on you ... that isnt just the blinds, thats a hefty a pot.. take that sucka down now.

now you tell me you are comfortable pushing all-in on a flop like that.


More comfortable than with a pair of nines on the flop than a pair of any face card.

Originally Posted by ChezJ

now you tell me you are comfortable pushing all-in on a flop like that.

Personally, I'd have played it more like Molerino. Given that it's a loose table, I don't mind the play, but at an average table, I'd like reraising to $6 or $8. That's assuming $25 stacks. If you or the raiser have significantly less than $20, then I agree completely with a push at any table.

And yes, if someone called my preflop raise, I'd feel happy to push on that board with AA. What hands are calling preflop that are better than you on a low paired board? 99 is fairly unlikely, given the size of the reraise. 77/A9 is less likely. 97/9x is ludicrous.

In answer the original question, on flops that don't make me strongly fear that a hand would call my preflop action and improved to beat me post-flop, I'm pushing. How I play danger flops is a bit more dependent on table/reads.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by ChezJ

now you tell me you are comfortable pushing all-in on a flop like that.

Personally, I'd have played it more like Molerino. Given that it's a loose table, I don't mind the play, but at an average table, I'd like reraising to $6 or $8. That's assuming $25 stacks. If you or the raiser have significantly less than $20, then I agree completely with a push at any table.

And yes, if someone called my preflop raise, I'd feel happy to push on that board with AA. What hands are calling preflop that are better than you on a low paired board? 99 is fairly unlikely, given the size of the reraise. 77/A9 is less likely. 97/9x is ludicrous.

In answer the original question, on flops that don't make me strongly fear that a hand would call my preflop action and improved to beat me post-flop, I'm pushing. How I play danger flops is a bit more dependent on table/reads.

if your talking about the 25NL tables its highly likely your getting called by J9 K9 Q9 A9 .. the players at these level are very poor

that flop is a prefect flop for aces, I would push all day on that.

I've gotta say i'm in molinero's corner here. Aces are a good hand, you want to see flops, you want people putting their money in, and your goal is not to scare everyone out preflop. Pushing there is wimpy and scared and accomplishes nothing other than ensuring you minimize your earnings, as a push here could probably even get kings to fold. TESTICULAR FORTITUDE.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

that flop is a prefect flop for aces, I would push all day on that.

I've gotta say i'm in molinero's corner here. Aces are a good hand, you want to see flops, you want people putting their money in, and your goal is not to scare everyone out preflop. Pushing there is wimpy and scared and accomplishes nothing other than ensuring you minimize your earnings, as a push here could probably even get kings to fold. TESTICULAR FORTITUDE.

a reraise preflop invites someone to call the bet to see the flop... but they will assume you have aces.. flop comes 99x they will fold to an all in.

all in preflop after a few people called a standard raise looks like a steal, and will get called by a crap hand.

I have to say I'm not in Mol's corner. With a raise and a reraise on the table in front of me, I'm all-in. Period.

Most people who will reraise with mediocre hands will go all the way with them. As will most people with KK, QQ, AK...and that's what we're looking for.

No way I'm going to let pocket tens flop a set and THEN put my money in, if I can help it.

I think Molinero's line is far preferable to the scared push preflop. You have the best hand to play with -- play it. Putting in a hefty reraise into a big pot is not slowplaying. Your hand will stand up against all 9 people seeing all 5 cards 1/3 of the time! Further, if people are calling heavy preflop bets, and the flop comes low cards, many times they will have a lower overpair than you do. These people will sometimes push or call your allin with worse hands. On the other hand, sometimes you will slam into sets, two pairs (especially if the flop has 2 paint), or straights (again, more likely with high cards). You say the pot is $200 by the time the flop flops. How deep are your stacks? If you still had $400 or so, maybe a potsized or 1.5 potsized bet is preferable here. You take away the odds of any draw, some hands that are worse might overcall, and better hands will push back at you. Otherwise, if you have less than 200 and the board isn't 3 suited (different suits than your aces, obviously), 3 connected high cards, or high paired, I think the push is easy here. One further suggestion -- you say that your reraise brings 3 or 4 people along at the loose table. Is there an amount you could raise it to that would narrow the field to 2? If so, the slightly smaller size of the pot (minus the 2 calls you lose by pushing harder) might be compensated by the higher likelihood of taking it down.

I guess the thinking would be whether (assuming risk neutrality):
(pot size preflop with 4 callers) * (chance of taking it down postflop without caller) + (pot size with callers)* (chance of taking it down) - (your total bets) * (1 - chance of taking it down with caller(s) of your allin postflop bet) > (pot preflop with a bigger reraise and 2 callers) * (chance of taking it down with allin bet postflop) + (pot size with caller(s)) * (chance of taking it down with caller(s) of postflop allin) - (your total bets) * (1-chance of taking it down with callers). In plain language -- is your greater chance of winning with smaller field worth the extra money foregone with a lower chance of winning in a bigger field? If the pot is much smaller, and your chance of winning is not much bigger, no; etc.

I think we can be certain that AA's EV(4 callers seeing flop) and EV(2 callers seeing flop) are both greater than EV(pushing allin preflop).

If you post some histories, maybe we can subject this question to more careful analysis.

Originally Posted by sejje

No way I'm going to let pocket tens flop a set and THEN put my money in, if I can help it.

BINGO


put your chips in with the best of it, no second guessing.

if pocket 10's wants to call off his stack with that hand, give him a horrible chance of winning (IE: running up against aces)


if you let pocket 10's in on that flop, you raise all-in on the flop, he will only call if he has a set. meaning you pushed in against someone with a set instead of taking down a decent size pot preflop with moving all in.

I think a hand like QQ or AK won't push preflop, but might push if the flop has a king or is unders. JJ won't push preflop either, but again might push if the flop is all unders. IMO, the only hands that are calling a push with a full stack are KK, and sometimes QQ. After you see a flop, if its all unders you might drag in QQ for sure, JJ and TT might join the mix. Someone might hit TPTK. Someone might get a flush draw, or a straight draw. If the betting is at 10 dollars, and you have a 200 deep stack, you might as well write "I have aces" in permenant marker on your face while you push that preflop.

My rules of thumb for pushing pre-flop:
1) Any time the pot has reached smallish medium sized always push. If I'm playing 100nl and the pot has reached 15 dollars I would push.
2) Any time I believe there is a good chance that somebody will call me I will push.

If I'm not pushing then I am at least raising enough to encourage most of the callers to fold.

Pushing post-flop:
1) The larger the pot is the more correct it is to push
2) The more people there are the less correct it is to push.

Generally, I believe it's much more dangerous and less profitable to push post-flop. It's not only inexperienced players that prefer to push pre-flop. Two of the best players in the world, Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone, recommend pushing pre-flop in their book, Pot-Limit and No-Limit Poker. They don't push to steal blind but if there is alot of action before them with raising and reraising then they will push.

Whether you push post-flop depends completely on the circumstance. If I am behind the the original raiser and he raises on the flop I would push, considering the pot has probably reached a substantial size.

What you want to watch out for is the guy that didn't raise but only called the raises getting aggressive.

You should use your opponents previous starting hand selections to narrow down what they have.
our
I agree with the majority of the posters in this thread. A big multi-handed pot on the flop is exactly the situation you don't want to be in with pocket aces. If that's the situation that you find yourself in oftern then you are playing them wrong. The beauty of pocket aces is that you know you have the strongest hand pre-flop. The best possible situation you can be in with aces is pre-flop with lots of action because you have the option of pushing in your chips when you know you have the best of it. If you sacrifice this then you give up alot of +EV of the aces.

By letting a bunch of people into the pot you are giving everyone an opportunity to see whether they might connect with the flop. Every small pocket pair or suited connector gets to see the flop and fold if they don't connect or go all-in if they do.

If you don't want to go all-in pre-flop then fine. But reraise by greater amounts pre-flop to reduce the amount of people to two or less. If the pot is enormous and there are two people on the flop then it's and automatic all-in.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

I think a hand like QQ or AK won't push preflop, but might push if the flop has a king or is unders. JJ won't push preflop either, but again might push if the flop is all unders. IMO, the only hands that are calling a push with a full stack are KK, and sometimes QQ. After you see a flop, if its all unders you might drag in QQ for sure, JJ and TT might join the mix. Someone might hit TPTK. Someone might get a flush draw, or a straight draw. If the betting is at 10 dollars, and you have a 200 deep stack, you might as well write "I have aces" in permenant marker on your face while you push that preflop.

thats the whole point... if there is a raise and some callers ahead of me, the pot is probably pretty big, im going all in to take whats on the table now, as a backup plan if im called i have a good shot of winning against 1 opponent instead of several.

let me change the question a bit. say you have AA in LP and you only re-raise to $10. 2 people call. now if the flop comes 979 and EP bets big and then MP raises AI, are you prepared to call AI with AA in your hand?

as someone else said, players at the $25 NL level are VERY bad and will call huge raises pre-flop with all kinds of crap. this table i was at was particularly bad. i went AI later on with KK (UTG!!) and got called by A7o. (i don't normally do that, but i had just gone AI with TPTK on the previous hand so i was counting on them to think i was a maniac... and it worked.)

ChezJ

As I said in my earlier response, if a table's that loose, I do like the all-in play. Because it can get called.

And once again, yes, I am prepared to call that AI with AA in my hand. If hands as bad as you'd have any reason to fear are calling raises of that size, then I would be raising more preflop. Unless I get AA within my first two orbits at a table, I'd have already tested this via in-position steal attempts.

I see far more hands that will bet big and lose to you on that board than win. 88 - KK will all be happy to push, and you dominate all of them. 77 and 99 beat you, but you have outs to 77 (99 as well...technically), and again, I'd be adjusting my play to get most of these hands out.

I guess what I'm arguing is that it depends on the table conditions. Assuming a loose/maniac table because it's NL$25 isn't always accurate...look at UB's NL$25. Play there is more logical than play at PP's NL$50. So yes, pushing against a raise while holding AA can certainly be the best play. There are also many situations where it's not, and you'd be better off milking it a bit. It does take more skill/thought to play this way, however (and I'm not saying that pushing is necessarily an unskilled move).

At the 5/5 at foxwoods last night-

guy sits to my left, posts blinds to get in on the action right away from one off the button. There is a live straddle in place.

UTG makes it 50 to go with 3 calls ( I folded my rags) and this guy next to me makes it 150 to go. I'm 100% sure it's AA and I'm pretty sure others know it too, but lo and behold the dude gets 4 calls.

I'm thinking...get ready for the AA to shrink considerably...

Flop comes Js- 10s- 5h

first three check and the AA guy bets 200 at the pot. SB then raises to 1000 straight. The other two fold but AA guy puts his last 800 or so chips in the middle.

It's trip Jacks against AA

Turn is a Q

River a K

Wow. Now if that isn't the worst play of AA I don't know what is. I shook his hand, as if to insinuate to him he played it marvelously. I wanted this guy all in against me in a similar situation.

Personally, with 160 in the pot I would have raised to 300, possibly 350 with the AA. I would expect everyone to fold but if I had a caller at least I could focus on him and what's happening. Now I don't know that I could get away from that hand, but I'm hoping I might.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

(A)There are also many situations where it's not, and you'd be better off milking it a bit. (B)It does take more skill/thought to play this way, however (and I'm not saying that pushing is necessarily an unskilled move).

(A) Agreed. This is part of my point. Check this out for example:

1/2 NL table. I'm sitting on about $300; big stack (who double up off super-loose, super aggressive dude) sits on about 600.

Rock Lady to my right; I'm on the button with A A .

My thoughts: please let someone raise so I can re-raise and get some of the loose rag-players out.

Action: UTG raises to $12. One or two callers ahead of me. I'm thinking, "Sweet...exactly what I want".

Then, the Rock to my right wakes up and re-raises to $50.

Me: "WTF? Oh, she's got KK or AA, too. Nice."

I flat-call the $50, thinking we're going heads-up anyway.

It folds to the LAggy dude, who flat calls...as do two others. Yipes!

Flop: J 10 2 rainbow.

Check, check. Rock bets $25; I move in for about $200 and change. LAggy dude says "This is either the worst call or the best fold"...and CALLS! Everyone else folds -- including the Rock, who indeed did have KK.

LAggy turns over K9 offsuit -- an inside straight draw.

He doesn't win the $600 in the pot, because someone else does.

(B) Agreed. For example:

I'm in MP with black aces this time. Guy to my right re-raises a $15 bet preflop to about $25. I re-raise to about $60 (the size of the pot, give-or-take). He re-raises; I move in. We're head-to-head, and he says, "Well, if you've got AA I guess you've got me.

He has KK.

He doesn't win.

At a loose-aggressive table, you can neither (1) assume you're up against a legitimate raise-calling hand, nor (2) assume you are up against a crap hand that flopped a miracle. There are no automatic reads. You have to put your knowledge of previous play together with whether the flop is favorable to you. Example:

I have AA on the button. LAgg to my right raises to $20. I reraise to $50. Everyone else folds; button calls.

Flop: 2 Q 10 rainbow.

He checks; I bet $100 (roughly the pot). He pushes in.

Are you going to fold AA, knowing that the only hand that beats you now AND that should be in there at all is QQ? Yes, you are beaten by 10 2, Q2, Q10, 10 10, and 22, but this is a favorable flop.

Could I have prevented this if I had moved in preflop? Maybe, but -- based on my read on this guy -- probably not. My read is that he calls with QQ, because, hey -- It's A Big Pocket Pair.

You see? To address what someone else said (Why let pocket 10s see a flop and catch a set), I say this: IF they catch a set, so be it. You pay them off -- THAT time. How often do you expect that to happen? You're a HUGE favorite against a smaller pair, and you can't OVERBET the pot preflop every time you get AA simply because you're afraid that SOMEBODY at the table might improve. I will not move all in for $300 to try and take down a $30 pot -- it's foolish.

the point of pushing AI when there is a raise and a few callers when it gets to you, is to take it down now, not to get your all in called... as doyle puts it, you either win a small pot or lose a big pot with AA.

heres the deal .. im UTG with JJ , i raise 5x the BB, i get 3 callers, you on the button with AA reraise me to make it 10x to 15x BB, i call, the other callers fold, we take a flop.

scenario 1: board comes AK4 rainbow, i check, you move all in, i fold.

scenario 2: board comes J52 rainbow, i check, you raise all in, i call and take your stack.


the point of the examples explains my point, your not getting called on the flop by a worse hand. a huge reraise like that preflop tells me you probably got the goods, and will only call your all in flop bet when i set... you push back at me all in preflop, i'll fold my Jacks.

and if you run into this regularly, then yes the players you find online do suck that bad.

Molerino,
Actually, in your first example I don't like the play. I understand that you figured with a bet of $50, it would be going to heads up, but with a $90 pot already, a smooth call is going to make better odds for others to call (exactly as happened) - given the size of the pot and the number of callers, it could easily be correct for 10 10 or J J to call here in late position. Your read told you that you could get this heads up. I like reraising to $100 here, or pushing, because you already expect to get your caller. You don't want to get very many more.

Element,
If you hold AA on a board of AKx and you push in response to a check, you seriously need to learn how to milk a pot. Everyone likes to quote the "win small, lose big" cliche, but it's very possible to win big with AA as well.

Further, following your example (I'd actually reraise more than 10x...that's too callable for all involved given the size of the pot):
20x pot when it gets to you. We'll assume that if you push, you take it down every time. If you raise 10x, you get a 40x pot heads up, which you will win about 82% of the time.

This situation plays out 100 times each way:
Pushing makes you 100 * 20x = 2000x.
Reraising makes you 82 * 30x - 18 * 10x = 2280x.
The difference is greater if your reraise is more substantial. Further, if you can milk money out of them post flop, the difference can increase even more. Yes, if you play it badly post-flop, you'll lose more because players can have more info about how good their hand is.

A big part of this too is making sure that your preflop reraise gives them bad odds to draw for their set. Then, even if the worst happens and you do push every time and only get called when they make the set, you're STILL further ahead by reraising than by pushing.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Molerino,
Actually, in your first example I don't like the play. I understand that you figured with a bet of $50, it would be going to heads up, but with a $90 pot already, a smooth call is going to make better odds for others to call (exactly as happened). Your read told you that you could get this heads up. I like reraising to $100 here, or pushing, because you already expect to get your caller. You don't want to get very many more.

Agreed, to a point. As it turned out, he was in there with a drawing hand (K9) -- and a pretty weak one at that. Not to mention his K was dominated in a BAD way. If he flops two pair, I don't like the play nearly as much...nor would I if he sucked out his 4-outer. But he had no odds to call preflop; it was a $40 or so pot BEFORE the $50 bet...my smooth call had him calling a $50 bet in a $150 pot. The only 3-to-1 draw he had was to an ass-whoopin'.

Originally Posted by Molinero

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Molerino,
Actually, in your first example I don't like the play. I understand that you figured with a bet of $50, it would be going to heads up, but with a $90 pot already, a smooth call is going to make better odds for others to call (exactly as happened). Your read told you that you could get this heads up. I like reraising to $100 here, or pushing, because you already expect to get your caller. You don't want to get very many more.

Agreed, to a point. As it turned out, he was in there with a drawing hand (K9) -- and a pretty weak one at that. Not to mention his K was dominated in a BAD way. If he flops two pair, I don't like the play nearly as much...nor would I if he sucked out his 4-outer. But he had no odds to call preflop; it was a $40 or so pot BEFORE the $50 bet...my smooth call had him calling a $50 bet in a $150 pot. The only 3-to-1 draw he had was to an ass-whoopin'.

Yeah...his play was horrible. He should have folded that hand at every single point that his turn came up around the table. Still, he wasn't the only caller. And if he was the first one, he increased the odds for the other 3 to 4-to-1 preflop, making it even more likely that they can correctly call if they have any kind of implied odds on their hand. Result: multi-way pot with a hand you want heads-up.

Besides, if he's playing K9 here, he's probably also playing JT. Meaning that your results were good this time, but could well be disastrous next time.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Besides, if he's playing K9 here, he's probably also playing JT. Meaning that your results were good this time, but could well be disastrous next time.

Scary. And good point.

This guy would've called $100 preflop with K9 though -- I'm confident. He's one of those "Never seen two cards I didn't like" kind of guys; impossible to put on a hand, but obvious when he's hit something or when he's drawing, and totally indifferent to pot odds, because he's a "Gambler".

Just because he's indifferent to pot odds doesn't mean you want to give him good odds. It just means you don't have to be tricky about taking them away.

Giving good odds to someone who doesn't think about them at all is at least as dangerous as giving them to a good player...because they are almost guarrenteed to take them, and if them making the call puts money in their pocket in the long run, that means it takes money from your pocket in the long run.

And again...even if he called $100 preflop. The others are less likely to call a larger bet. You want as few callers for as big a bet as you can get (while preferably still getting at least one). If he and one other are sure to call for $100 (you know the table, I don't) then by god, make it $150 so it's just him and Rock.

You make just as much with 2 callers to an extra $100 as you do with 5 callers to the original $50 - with almost double the odds that your hand will hold up (apx 45% to 75%).

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Just because he's indifferent to pot odds doesn't mean you want to give him good odds. It just means you don't have to be tricky about taking them away.

Giving good odds to someone who doesn't think about them at all is at least as dangerous as giving them to a good player...because they are almost guarrenteed to take them, and if them making the call puts money in their pocket in the long run, that means it takes money from your pocket in the long run.

And again...even if he called $100 preflop. The others are less likely to call a larger bet. You want as few callers for as big a bet as you can get (while preferably still getting at least one). If he and one other are sure to call for $100 (you know the table, I don't) then by god, make it $150 so it's just him and Rock.

Yeah. woulda sucked if the 4th player had ducks...

Forgive me for just posting a lucky hand, but It's kind of funny that it appeared just when I was reading this AA-strategy post

Ring game, 0.15/0.30. 10 players, usually like 75% sees the flop.

> v_sand posted small blind ($0.15)
> Flisan95 posted big blind ($0.30)
> Game # 230,709,640 starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards [:Ad: :Ac:]
> Krympe folded
> liam75 called for $0.30
> Voiant folded
> HK647 folded
> topjack69 folded
> cha9191 called for $0.30
> Loco_74 called for $0.30
> v_sand called for $0.15 (Crap, very few callers. Guess I'll limp.)
> Flisan95 checked
> Dealing the Flop(:As: :Ks: ) (Nightmare flop, well I'll just lay down soon.)
> Cvitamin sits down
> v_sand checked
> Flisan95 checked
> liam75 bet for $0.30
> cha9191 folded
> Loco_74 called for $0.30
> v_sand called for $0.30 (Couldn't resist to see if another Ace comes up)
> Flisan95 folded
> Dealing the turn(:Td
> v_sand checked
> liam75 bet for $0.30
> Loco_74 called for $0.30
> v_sand raised for $0.60 (Hmm, maybe noone has got two spades? Baby raise. Dont ask me why I made this one )
> liam75 called for $0.30
> Loco_74 called for $0.30
> Dealing the river(:Kh (OH YEAH, full house AAAKK, I'll beat the "nut flush")
> v_sand, you have 10 seconds to respond
> v_sand bet for $46.20 (All-in, I "forgot" like .60 in my stack by mistake)
> liam75 called for $46.20
> Loco_74 folded
> liam75 mucked
> v_sand wins $93.60 with a Full House, Aces full of Kings

Probably a terrible play, I had counted on laying down the hand losing my blinds and some baby bets, but I accidently won my biggest pot ever!)

How should I have played this (If we don't look at the results)? An immediate fold after that flop, or what? I guess I'm just lucky someone slowplayed the flush.

Horribly played. Limping because you have few callers? Few being three? WTF? You want more? If you think you want three callers then why don't you try to build the pot? That would also be a bad play but with your mentality... And you call that a nightmare flop? Hardly night mared.

"v_sand called for $0.30 (Couldn't resist to see if another Ace comes up) "
Or... maybe you have the best hand. And maybe you'll make a fullhouse. And then your final bet??? It worked...

Nightmare flop? Are you kidding? Most of the time nobody will have 2 spades with 3 random limpers. Even if they do, you just flopped top set. You have 7 cards which will improve you on the turn, and 10 on the river. This means that 33% of the time, even if you are beat on the flop, you will have the nuts or near it after the river. You played this hand WAY too weak. Put in at least some money preflop. With 3 limpers, even if you don't want to chase away your action, a reasonable raise at low limits will just juice the pot when you have the best of it. Second, BET THE FLOP! Check-calling is the weakest possible move you could make. If you really thought you were beat (which would take most players at least more than a .30 lead to establish....), then fold. You should be leading into this pot. You probably have the best hand, and many people will call with 4-flushes and worse hands any king, perhaps the case ace with a lower kicker, even two pair. Also, if you lead into the flop with a pot sized bet, and you get reraised 2x pot by a very passive player, then you know you're probably behind and can proceed from there. Your line gives you no information whatsoever. Second, what lead you to believe you were certainly behind on the flop, but ahead on the turn? Also, if you think you're ahead because of the weak lead into a non-spade turn, for god's sake bet, man! Don't minraise. Put in a potsized bet and take control of this hand. Last, you make the second nuts on the river and you go allin? Did your read on the turn change because they called your minraise (this is why minraises suck -- you still don't have a clue where you're at in this hand)? What in the world led you to think someone would call your allin bet? Most of the time you waste a one-in-a-session hand here that could make you quite a bit with a large value bet. In sum -- raise preflop, bet out on the flop, make a man-sized raise on the turn, and make a callable bet on the river.

Thanks for your answers, I'm still a n00b so I'll take any advice and read it a couple of times. The table was so horribly passive that any pre-flop raise might have made me just getting the blinds. I've also seen a LOT of the I'll-play-any-suited-hole-cards-players. But yeah, I've learned my lesson. Be careful with slow-playing AA (change tables if I don't get any action).

The reason I thought he would call my all-in is that he had a flush (any will do, for these flush-lovers)

But again, this is a bad play gone terribly well. Thanks for pointing out stuff, I'll try to play it better next time

In sum -- raise preflop, bet out on the flop, make a man-sized raise on the turn, and make a callable bet on the river.

*Takes notes*

You at least deserve credit for the fact that your all-in was done with a read as apposed to "I've got the nuts! All in!"

"the point of the examples explains my point, your not getting called on the flop by a worse hand. a huge reraise like that preflop tells me you probably got the goods, and will only call your all in flop bet when i set... you push back at me all in preflop, i'll fold my Jacks."

If i just push, I'm winning 5xBB every time, for say 500xBB after 100 trials. If i reraise you to 15xBB, then ~88% of the time you miss your set and I bet and you fold, I'm getting 10 extra BB out of you every time. So, 88% of 100 times i'm winning at a minimum 1320xBB, assuming they call no more bets. I will destack you 4% of the time if i get a set over set, clearly win more money if the board comes all unders (~30% of the time), and only win money from you making bad calls on draws, misreading me for ak or whatever, etc. This number that i'm winning is easily going to be 1500-2000BB+. Even if you destacked me that entire 12% of the time that your set hits, which its likely you wouldn't at least some of the time, i'm still up more than you.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

I think a hand like QQ or AK won't push preflop

in the example i posted above, a guy called AI vs my AA with QQ. today i moved in pre-flop with KK and got called by AK, taking his whole stack. short stacks are especially prone to moving in with AK... i cracked one with QJs in a loose blind defense.

If the betting is at 10 dollars, and you have a 200 deep stack, you might as well write "I have aces" in permenant marker on your face while you push that preflop.

so what? people will still call to take a shot at cracking you. and if they don't, you still win the pot.

from theory of poker, pg 68: You've made a small raise, four of five people have called, and now someone puts in a substantial reraise. You must reraise again even if your play gives away your hand completely. It is worth dropping all disguise because as the pot gets larger and larger, what's in the pot right now counts more than potential bets on later rounds. With two aces you should put in all the bets you can.

ChezJ