AJ/KQ preflop - Limp/Raise/Fold?

100bb Stacks, Loosish table - 40% P/F or whatever, 10 players

Your dealt AJ or KQ in 3 positions - EP, MP and Button.
When you're button there is 3 limpers before you, when your MP theres 1 before you, in EP theres none.

How do you enter the pot (or not as the case may be) and WHY, in each of those 3 positions?

Do you play AJ and KQ different here?

I am curious as to what serious ring players say... but I think you limp these on a loose PASSIVE table.

UNLESS you are playing laggy (at the moment), then std. raise them (duh). Playing laggy against loose/passive table is not recommended...

with AJ and KQ....

early position: i would limp hoping to get a cheap flop...

middle position: generally i would limp in but depending if there are limpers ahead of me. i would bump it up 3.5xbb hoping to get position on the hand.. any reraises or smooth callers i would slow down..

late position/button: i would have no problem raising 4-5xbb if there are limpers ahead of me..

i fold these hands to any raise from a semi/solid player.

with AJ im hoping to spike a J on the flop, not to hit the ace....

with KQ im hoping to hit two pair not a king or a queen...

you will find yourself into alot of trouble running into higher kickers..

I'm a 6max player so I'd raise those in all positions but I'll give this a shot.

EP:

I think most logic says you can limp AJs/o here, but I think I would be much more inclined to just fold and wait for a better EP/MP hand or wait to catch such a marginal hand in LP. Fold KQ here.

MP:

With one limper in here I'm raising AJs/o especially if the table is loose passive. I can't say about my play on KQo here but I would want to limp KQs here just like other suited connectors looking for a good draw.

LP:

Raise here with AJs/o almost every time. I think a KQ raise here might be ok.

A lot depends on the respect your c-bets have been getting, if its been call//fold then I raise both (and worse) in all positions. If players are calling down with weak kickers then again I raise both in any position, the times your up against AK/AQ or a paired low kicker will hurt but most of the time you can isolate and make money off K10/KJ Axs etc.

Smarter/tighter opponents require more caution and I want to see a cheap flop and the action before commiting chips, if players are limping AK/AQ in EP then you need to be extra carefull about raising in LP. Thats not to say don't raise, if their that passive then they need to hit to stay in the hand, try to take it own with a c-bet, just dont get too attached to TPGK.

Working out your opponents limping, calling and raising requirements are the key to playing these hands.

Its probably a leak but I don't think I've ever open folded AJ or KQ.

EP: Limp AJs/KQs, fold AJo/KQo.
MP: Raise AJs/KQs, limp AJo/KQo.
LP: Raise all 4.

This is what I do at 200NL with a flops seen table % around 30-33. But I'm new to 200NL and a marginal winner so far, so I really don't know if this is optimal.

I'm uncomfortable raising AJ btw, although I know it's a decent hand..

Originally Posted by finky

A lot depends on the respect your c-bets have been getting, if its been call//fold then

This is important. Its more like call, call, call, call, call, call....

Does this make limping everywhere a bigger favourite?

If raising and repping the flop is getting you nowhere or players have been limping dominating hands, then I would be more inclined to limp and rely on post flop play to reap the $

On most tables i raise AJo from any position (but fold it if there is a raise in front). I raise KQ from MP onwards sometimes and fold it sometimes depending on my mood. If i start seeing people limping AQ+ preflop then both of these hands become preflop folds from anywhere except CO/Button/ Blinds.
From the blinds im looking for a straight draw but ill try and steal pots with or without hitting if it looks for sale.

EP - Fold, but I'm probably giving something up. I just hate playing hands like this out of position. I really want something that's going to make me want to pound the living shit out of a pot and make the lemmings play for stacks when I hit.

MP - Stupid easy raise. If somone with position is a serial cold-caller re-valute your table/seat.

Button - I don't think it matters much. Really depends on how they play post-flop. Although 100bb stacks tip me towards a limp, but with shallower money I'm more inclined to raise it up.

I agree with Fnord, fold these in early psotion at a loose table where someone might raise you in position. Then what are you gonna do rereaise with those hands or call and check after the flop then fold to a bet. In late postion raise against no more then two players dont want to try and raise against a full table not gonna drive everyone out then what do you do after the flop. Decent hands heads up in position crapy hands in early position.

Originally Posted by tboneinpcola

I agree with Fnord, fold these in early psotion at a loose table where someone might raise you in position.

I didn't say this. If I limp 22 and get raised I might be very happy depending on who raised me, how deep the money is and the size of the raise.

What I'm saying is that if they know our limping range here is something like 99-22 and they're aware then an aware player can raise 2 waffles, c-bet/fold and force us to either play poker without a set or give him insta-profit. This is the problem with well defined hands.

Originally Posted by Fnord

What I'm saying is that if they know our limping range here is something like 99-22 and they're aware then an aware player can raise 2 waffles, c-bet/fold and force us to either play poker without a set or give him insta-profit. This is the problem with well defined hands.

I have no comment, It's just that 'waffles' is my favorite poker slang.
Waffles, Waffles, Waffles.

First of all I think people define positions a little differently.
In a 10 handed game I consider the first 3 seats EP, 4-6 seats MP, and the last two seats as LP.

EP- I fold all of these hands. It is terrible to be OOP with a lower kicker than an opponent (AK v. AJ).

MP-I would raise with AJs and KQs and fold the other hands. At this point it is very possible that these hands are the best at the table. I might call AJ if the table is passive.

Button-I would raise all of these hands. You have position the rest of the hand which is an enormous advantage in NL. Obviously I would fold these hands if there was a raise ahead of me, especially if it came from EP. In all hands I want to be the one raising, not calling raises.

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

100bb Stacks, Loosish table - 40% P/F or whatever, 10 players

Your dealt AJ or KQ in 3 positions - EP, MP and Button.
When you're button there is 3 limpers before you, when your MP theres 1 before you, in EP theres none.

How do you enter the pot (or not as the case may be) and WHY, in each of those 3 positions?

Do you play AJ and KQ different here?

interesting,

i fold both from EP. Might call if the KQ is suited. i really dislike Aj alot more than KQ from Ep for some reason? probably because KQ often rules an unraised pot

I raise both up in MP

I raise both up in late position

Thats just my way of playing- i like to raise with alot of hands preflop in a cash game scenario so i get paid for my big hands and so that i am making people make tough decisions alot. Also, u wanna try and get an idea of what other people are playing. Also, these are 2 strong hands and so far nobody has shown any strength so i see no reason not to raise.

also, i am interested to see why you all seem to vary your play so much when the cards are suited. THIS IS A MASSIVE ERROR in my opinion. Maybe i am wrong but johnny_fish said he would:


EP: Limp AJs/KQs, fold AJo/KQo.
MP: Raise AJs/KQs, limp AJo/KQo.
LP: Raise all 4

Now this is surely a massive leak. Why, in MP, would u only riase with the suited cards?? It just makes no sense. If anything, the suited cards are the better ones to limp with if you want to play them as drawinghands. surelyyour love for suited cards is costing you ALOT of money?


true, suited cards are nice if you are playing them as a drawing hand (like KQ suited), but otherwise it is should be considered largely irrlevent.

Why does everyone at this site disagree with me? in fact, in alot of texts it really distinguishes between suited cards and non suited cards. I think suitd cards are only relevent when the cards are also connected (J10s)

The suitedness doesnt change the value a huge amount. It gives you an extra way to win if it turns out you are up against AQ. It also gives you a well disguised flush if you raise preflop and then make the flush on the turn. People are expecting you to have 2 high cards or a high pair and youve made a flush against their set or w/e. This means you will get their stack. when you otherwise would have lost a big chunk of yours. These situations don't come up often but they do add slightly to the value of the hands in the long run. Raising them in position builds a pot when you are likely to make a good TPTK type hand, and also allows you to buy a free flush card on later streets if you feel you are behind.

Originally Posted by Zidane18

also, i am interested to see why you all seem to vary your play so much when the cards are suited. THIS IS A MASSIVE ERROR in my opinion.

With deep stacks suited cards can give you a big edge and can greatly influence your post flop decisions. Say your up against a mid-high PP, the flop is all low but you get a flush draw, you are still a favorite in the hand.
e.g.

Offsuit
Board: 3c 6c 9d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.7475 % 24.75% 00.00% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 75.2525 % 75.25% 00.00% { JdJh }


Now compare that to suited cards
Board: 3c 6c 9d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 54.4444 % 54.44% 00.00% { KcQc }
Hand 2: 45.5556 % 45.56% 00.00% { JdJh }

As you can see this has the added advantage that JJ would probably commit chips protecting against the draw even though they are behind in the hand. Something they would not do if you hit one of your pairs. Yes you only flop a flush or flush draw ~12% of the time but this is roughly the same chance as flopping a set with a low PP and you play that for the set alone.

It also can give protection against sets where otherwise you would be drawing dead. Even if you only get one card of your suit on the flop, this is still an extra 1.5 outs which can come in handy if you dont go crazy and they sloplay till the river.

Finally with AJs your drawing to the nut flush. Flush over flush happens rarly but when it does, you will stack the other player.

I don't like going deep with one pair, but I do with a flush.

Sooted rulezzz

I'm still confused over this issue. So let's list the reasons for raising preflop.

-1- Isolation/buying button.
-2- Information
-3- Value
-4- Balance (Shania..)

-4- seems irrelevant, since online opps are usually unaware. At higher stakes this might become an issue (>400NL).

-2- is valuable, although you don't want a call from someone with position.

I'm not sure about -1-, although buying position is very valuable of course. Isolation.. Well, playing AJ/KQ HU seems more EV to me than playing it 4-ways unraised. I lack skill/knowledge/experience though..

Not sure about -3-.

-5- C-betting and taking down a pot no-ones interested in.

Now think of the reasons NOT to raise

Reasons not to raise:

-1- Your cbets don't get respected.
-2- You're out of position.
-3- People limp-call AQ/AK.
-4- You have a skill edge in unraised pots.

all valid points, still prefer raising though.....

i've gotta say that i agree with what pelion said about the suited cards issue. if they are suited, that is obviously better, but its not a big enough difference to change it from a calling hand to a raising hand, or from a folding hand to a calling/raising hand.

and there is a huge difference playing low PP's for sets vs playing suited cards for flush draws, the key word being draws. you play for your set, hit the set on the flop, you now have a hand. you play suited cards for flush draw, hit your flush draw on the flop, you now have a 1 in 3 chance of making a hand. huge difference. especially because most players can see that there are three cards of the same suit on the board, and will usually act accordingly. more so if youve been playing your suited cards differently than your nonsuited cards.

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

I'm not sure about -1-, although buying position is very valuable of course. Isolation.. Well, playing AJ/KQ HU seems more EV to me than playing it 4-ways unraised. I lack skill/knowledge/experience though..

This was what I was aiming for with the origional question. I think it depends largely on two main things - the value of your c-bets and the limping standards of you opponents. Isolating just seems like throwing money away if you have to check every missed flop. Also isolating and outplaying one opp has less value if you can keep 3 guys you have dominated in the hand by not raising so much preflop. I'm just not sure how far this stuff sways the argument in favour of limping and how much does the issue of position sway it back.

How valuable is it to have position on a calling station? Youalready know what he's gonna do when the action gets to him - call!

Originally Posted by finky

Offsuit
Board: 3c 6c 9d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.7475 % 24.75% 00.00% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 75.2525 % 75.25% 00.00% { JdJh }


Now compare that to suited cards
Board: 3c 6c 9d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 54.4444 % 54.44% 00.00% { KcQc }
Hand 2: 45.5556 % 45.56% 00.00% { JdJh }

This is like saying 72o is a great hand because on a 772 flop your ahead of AA.

Code:

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ks Ad 1151480  67.25    552847  32.29      7977   0.47     0.675
8c 3d  552847  32.29   1151480  67.25      7977   0.47     0.325

Code:

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
As Ks 1181314  68.99    522995  30.54      7995   0.47     0.692
8c 3d  522995  30.54   1181314  68.99      7995   0.47     0.308

AKs > AK by less then 2%... Who cares?

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

This is like saying 72o is a great hand because on a 772 flop your ahead of AA.

No it isnt. On a 772 flop you arent taking many stacks with 72o and it doesnt happen very often either.

On a low card flop with suited overcards you are going to have a big pot against JJ. This situation also comes up far more often than hitting a specific 772 flop with 72o.

You are a favorite against alot of hands that think they are winning when you have AKs and the flop comes with all low cards and your flush draw and more importantly they will think they are winning.

The number 1 thing that decides how i play these hands is how loose/passive the table is.

If people are going to limp/call AK + AQ then i dont want to be raising AJ. If people are going to be calling with any A then i dont want to be raising KQ but i do want to be raising AK.
If people are not going to respect a cbet then i am less likely to raise any hands other than premium pocket pairs. If it seems like a table where people will call preflop with any A but fold when they dont hit the flop then im raising 67s (and i probably should be raising 72o).

This kind of question is incredibly table dependent but I think my style is correct for most of the pokerstars tables i have found at my limit. I tend to limp KQ from earlyish position and raise t later, Raise AJo from any position but not get married to a pair of A. I believe i take more chips from people calling with A6 than I lose to AQ, and AK often reraises me preflop anyway (and i fold). At paradise 2NL where people literally go to the river with A high I am far less inclined to raise anything except QQ,KK, AA preflop. Ill wait until i get top 2 pair and then take the flush draws stack + the pair of Aces 2 kicker's stack too.

AJo KQo ep fold. Unless i can see too many cheap flops.
AJs KQs limp possibly call a raise depending on who's doing the raising and how many are doing the calling. I dont mind being isolated with KQs/AJs HU in ep against even an average opponent who would give me credit for a pp or something similar if he misses the flop and i decide to make a play.
mp is always a raise with these hands for me. Even if there is a limper. With multiple limpers again id consider throwing AJo KQo straight in the muck or else limp with the others but this is just encouraging any lp player to bang in a fat raise and chase us outta the pot. So here its dependant on who is sat behind me and how they play...
Button i always raise. I almost auto-raise from the button in full ring now if the pot is limped with anything suited/connected etc so to run into a good hand on the button would be nice, it would be suspicious i think to see me limp too.
Thats my standard list of how i want to play. Ive stuck in some of the most importaat variables for playing some of those hands in certain positions for me.
KQo is and continues to be a huge looser for me in all games and all limits (including lhe) whereas KQs is a big winner. Similar with AJs/o. Suited is a big winner, AJo is a slight winner. I think its more to do with the fact i raise with these hands or fold.

[quote="iRICHeyes"]

This is like saying 72o is a great hand because on a 772 flop your ahead of AA.
[\quote]

Chances of flopping a FH or quads ~0.1%
Chances of flopping flush or flush draw ~12%
12% is a common occurance, 0.1% is not.

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

Code:

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
Ks Ad 1151480  67.25    552847  32.29      7977   0.47     0.675
8c 3d  552847  32.29   1151480  67.25      7977   0.47     0.325

Code:

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
As Ks 1181314  68.99    522995  30.54      7995   0.47     0.692
8c 3d  522995  30.54   1181314  68.99      7995   0.47     0.308

AKs > AK by less then 2%... Who cares?

I think your missing the point. Running cards like that makes A2o a better hand then KQs, it is not. This is about playablity and making close decisions with money behind. How far will you go with a pair? How far with a pair and a strong draw? It makes a huge amount of difference, you dont need to make the draw, the fact its there lets you be aggressive with confidence increaces the overall strength of your hand a great deal.

Running cards also make flushes great hands to have, pot and implied odds say different. I wont go that far with single pair hands, but I get them alot more often then I hit flushes when you take things like pot odds into consideration.

And no that draw wont make me much more aggressive at all, unless you take folding equity into account, which I very rarely can.

Its not just about fold equity, its about pot equity.

You hit a pair and your c-bet gets min raised, how much better do you feel if you have a draw as well?

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Reasons not to raise:

-1- Your cbets don't get respected.
-2- You're out of position.
-3- People limp-call AQ/AK.
-4- You have a skill edge in unraised pots.

1 - You won't have cbets to rely on if you limp
2 - You are out of position if you limp
3 - You will lose just as much $$ to AQ/AK if you limp
4 - You have a skill edge if you raise too.

This being said, I prefer to limp AJ/KQ in EP

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Reasons not to raise:

-1- Your cbets don't get respected.
-2- You're out of position.
-3- People limp-call AQ/AK.
-4- You have a skill edge in unraised pots.

1 - You won't have cbets to rely on if you limp

But at least you're not raising and check/folding.

2 - You are out of position if you limp

But your not dumping extra chips in OOP

3 - You will lose just as much $$ to AQ/AK if you limp

No because AK/AQ will raise behind you if you limp, then you can comfortably fold. AK/AQ wont nessecarily reraise though.

4 - You have a skill edge if you raise too.

Cant argue with that.

This being said, I prefer to limp AJ/KQ in EP

What's ' WPP: ' , under our avatar?

average Words Per Post

One comment on suitedness.

Yes, when compared to it's off-suit counter-part a suited hand will only gain a little edge in show-down value (strict card odds). However, it gives you more fexibility and reason to continue in larger pots, which inevitably means that when you do win with suited cards, you tend to win bigger pots on average.

So, to have appropriate insight when having this discussion, you need to discuss suitedness in an EV sense, not just showdown value.

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Reasons not to raise:

-1- Your cbets don't get respected.
-2- You're out of position.
-3- People limp-call AQ/AK.
-4- You have a skill edge in unraised pots.

cbets not being respected is a good thing

when u hit 2 pair - bet and win lots

the thing idiots do when their cbets never get respected is that they slow down when they hit something

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

100bb Stacks, Loosish table - 40% P/F or whatever, 10 players

You're dealt AJ or KQ in 3 positions - EP, MP and Button.
When you're button there is 3 limpers before you, when your MP theres 1 before you, in EP theres none.

this should mostly depend on the amount of notes/info you have on the people sitting @ the table. if i've a good amount (e.g. what 4-5 of them do w/ flush draws/open endeds & some amount of intelligence on their betting patterns in position & w/ tp/marginal kickers) then i feel much more comfortable raising w/ any two cards. if not, i have to tighten up. for the purpose of the following, i'm assuming i'm in relatively t/s mood (which might still be very aggressive in the grand scheme of things)

EP: 3xbb, play for twopair/straights instead of tp.

MP: 3.5xbb to push out the limper & get position, play for two/pair/straights instead of tp.

LP: 4xbb to push out (some) of the limpers, play for tp.

i generally speaking dislike playing any unraised pot b/c i lack basic information about what folks are likely to have.