Any way to cut down on your reverse implied odds?

I feel like i am really giving up a lot of value against small pocket pairs with my Q-Q+ hands. I am wondering:

1). Does anyone ordinarily fold big pair hands on the flop?
2). If you call on the flop to "re-evaluate" the turn as i often do, what information do generally look for?
3). Any betting suggestions for cutting down on their implied odds preflop?

Obviously this is a very general topic, so if people can post hand histories when they respond i would appreciate it.

1) position helps

2) Checking behind the turn / calling river can often be a good move against opponents who will float one street.

3) making bigger preflop raises is a direct reduction in implied odds but also discourages action from worse hands.

4) Raising a wider range is more useful.

e.g. say you only ever raise AA. Villain gets 8:1 implied odds and can now just aabout call to bust you. now you raise AA or KK. Villain still gets 8:1 stack odds but you give up on A high flops (after a cbet) so his implied odds are worse.

Now you raise QQ+ and give up (reasonably easily) on K+ high flops. His implied odds are worse.

throw in AK.

Throw in lower PPs (like 77 sometimes?)

now he calls with 55, folds the best hand when you both miss and you have AK, stacks off when you both hit a set and you have 77, doesnt win alot on A high flops, and generally has to work alot harder. His implied odds are worse.


5) ...and alot more i havnt thought of.

1). I don't know how much position helps if the action is HU.

Out of Position:
For example, if i were to raise K-K in MP and get called by CO and the rest of the table folds. Flop comes 10-7-4. I bet, he raises. Then what?

-Another raise would help me confirm villains hand, since he has to have at least an overpair to keep playing.
-If i call, am i now calling to showdown? Or am i call turn/ block bet river?

In Position:
If CO were instead in EP and limp called my raise, he bets i raise and he calls/raises. Then what?
-Calling seems too weak if he raises
-Betting seems necessary on the turn if he called the flop reraise and the turn came a blank (non 10, 3rd suit, etc.). But, it also seems dangerous since i am now building a pot with only a pair that may end up consuming my entire stack.
-Folding seems too weak also!

In a multiway pot, it is MUCH easier to let go of a big pair since there are more opportunities to get information about your opponents hands due to more bets/ calls being made, but since i am not struggling with that i am not specifically seeking advice on that scenario. Mostly HU pots are giving me grief with these hands.

2). This suggestion would only apply if i were in position, and if he checks to me. This is a method i usually do employ and i almost always call the river bet. This is a good piece of advice since TP would also play the hand this way and we are ahead of that hand (which would still constitute a good chunk of his range on the given information).

3). Also true, but if you are the only raiser (4xBB with K-K) you cannot cut down on 5-5's implied odds enough to make him calling preflop unprofitable. Not to mention hands like SC's.

4). I don't understand how having a wider preflop range would impact my reverse implied odds with Q-Q+ hands.

5). I would like to hear more thoughts.

Yeah, don't stack off.

and raise more.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

4). I don't understand how having a wider preflop range would impact my reverse implied odds with Q-Q+ hands.

It doesnt cut down his implied odds against your QQ+, but it does cut down his implied odds against your entire range which means overall he loses more to the point where, if you do it enough he is calling unprofitably preflop against your entire range. If you arent stacking off the majority of the times when he hits a set (because your hand is weaker), and you often make him fold the best hand (e.g. when you both miss with AK Vs 66 on a Q94 flop, then you make up alot of extra value that offsets what you sometimes lose when he has 22 and you have AA and it comes 952.

I what having a bigger range against reasonably straight forward, not too aggressive opponents does is it makes it alot easier to fold when youre behind. Since most people just look at stack sizes to judge implied odds (if they do it at all) he may think "yay im getting 10:1, instacall and sethunt". If you are actually only stacking off with a small percentage of your preflop raising hands then his implied odds are alot smaller than he thinks and he makes a preflop mistake. So I guess Im really saying learn to fold

Also position is alot more important in a headsup pot than a multiway pot imo since you can much more easily manipulate the pot size against one opponent.

4). I don't understand how having a wider preflop range would impact my reverse implied odds with Q-Q+ hands.

With the wider range you'll have air on flop more often and his "set or fold" strategy won't be profitable anymore. He'll be c-bet bluffed off his pair when he misses and win only small/medium pot when he hits.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

I feel like i am really giving up a lot of value against small pocket pairs with my Q-Q+ hands. I am wondering:

1). Does anyone ordinarily fold big pair hands on the flop?
2). If you call on the flop to "re-evaluate" the turn as i often do, what information do generally look for?
3). Any betting suggestions for cutting down on their implied odds preflop?

Obviously this is a very general topic, so if people can post hand histories when they respond i would appreciate it.

1. Stop betting every flop. You dont need to bet to get value from you big pairs whn the board is dry. This will encourage people to overplay less strong hands versus you.

2. If the flop is raised looks at its texture and figure out why? Is it likely you hit the flop, its blank but the other guy wants to play a big pot? If so, put him on a range. Also, you need to know if these guys will play positon well i.e they call in position with KQs and raise a Qxx blank flop when you have AQ/KK and ask you to play a big pot oop. DO you know the difference between these good players and the normal nit who flopped a set? Have you got notes to say so, do you pay attention to the table or just see your HUD stats and think ZOMG he has setz fold?

3. Think about your line if the flop is raised. If you get c/r'ed and then led into hard, is opp setting up a river shove/psb? If so thn he plays his draws decently oop and knows youre weak/tight or else he prob has you creamed.
If you are oop, you call a flop raise on a draw heavy heavy board then donk the turn and fold to a push. Takes a good player to push here over your multi-street play when he only has a bare flush draw, unless again youre playing weak tight.

4. Dont be so predictable preflop. If your 15/8 then your range is predictable, play some more hands in lp, raise some more hands in lp etc etc.

5. You cannot protect your aces preflop. Once you know this, and i mean dont read a post and see it, but actually learn so, you'll understand that you dont need to just get value from QQ+ or tp, you can bet or bluff for value against a lot of players easily when they expect you bets not to be bluffs. You can then also stop 'bet bet betting' every street and figure out how to make your opponents actually make mistakes when their ranges are predictable.
Im not telling you to raise JTs every time you get it UTG, im saying have you ever considered raising JTs UTG and if not why not?
If you saw yourself at the table, would you know what cards you always raised and the range etc. If so, youre too predicatble and need to play some cards just for the sake of it.

You cant deny implied odds, you just need to recognise who uses them well against you and who will overplay certain hands against you in immitation of it etc.

Thank you everyone for your responses. I now understand Pelion's 4th concept, and feel kind of dumb for not thinking of it that way. Obviously they don't know if i am raising with a big pair .


I think i understand what you mean Miffed about not betting out every time i have a big pair on a dry flop. i.e. If c/r ing when OOP will give me a better idea about whether my opponent has a set/TP, then it would be the better play. When i am IP if i am c/r'ed i will call and usually plan to give up to a strong turn bet against an unknown.

The responses i got to this question have got me to realize just how important it is to take GOOD specific notes on my opponents. Most of my notes basically tell me in general if my opponent is loose, tight, aggro, etc.

-Patching another leak-