Beginner's next step in grinding out his bankroll.

First off, thanks to spoonitnow for posting about the importance of bonuses as it has changed my outlook on the subject.
This might be a long one, but should be very usefull for me as well as every other beginner who is trying to grind out a bankroll.

I've been playing poker for a few years but started learning the game 4 months or so ago. Since then I've been grinding out a bankroll starting from only few dollars(17 to be exact) and after increasing the roll to 80 by placing well in a tourney started playing full ring on lowest limits on PS(0.01/0.02), using PokerOffice as my help to 2table(don't worry Im buying in short,60-100BB).
After a huge recent downswing in my BR from 180 to 100-something in a matter of 1 week,I am now back on track on my way to storm 200mark. The reason for downsing was 2 days of nasty cold deck run which has set me on tilt and made me forget all my BR management rules. However I do not like to lose more then 5% of my roll on any given day and like to take the downswing as a lesson learned.

Only recently I have realized something important by reading one of the blogs here on FTR- you can be a break-even player and still make money through bonuses. What it ment for me is: realizing that I'm giving a huge prtion of my roll away through rake and even with my BR -I can start thinking about taking the next step from learning the basics and trying to take advantage of bonuses. However, being new to this idea I do need some help starting out.

1 What is the sufficient BankRoll to start working on a bonus?
If taking advantage of 100% bonuses, it is only common sence to be able to deposit as much as you can. 100$ in my opinion is not sufficient due to BR management issues- you will have to play atleast 25NL in order to cash out the bonus and with 100$ roll it's suiside.Now if you were rolled properly for 25NL-you can deposit as much of your BR as you want,but that would require you to have atleast 1k size BR(when chasing bonus you would 2table atleast,right?So 50$ being 5% -you get 1k roll).
Mine is around 140 on PS and I recently used some of my points on Bodog to win 29T$, using 6 of which to win real 35$. So it's 140+35 and the tournament dollars, but that I won't count.
Please comment and advise what size BR does one need in order to start taking avantage of bonuses.What did you start with?

2 Which bonus should one go after on a short Bank Roll?

I only have Poker Office, which I was able to get for free. I am pretty hapy with it.But it does not work on Bodog and many other sites(if I chose to play others). So getting a good piece of software would help a lot for full ring multitabling. Im thinking of getting PokerEdge since it has its own database and unlike PO or PT- I do not have to play with the guy to have some stats on him.I plan on obtaining it for free through the offer on pokeredge web site-creating another account on Bodog and depositing the required 50$ ,in addition to that I will get 10% bonus. After that I will try to find rakeback bonus with hopefully healthier BR.

Please comment and advise what kind of bonuses should one start going after first?

3Microstakes.Playing 0.01/0.02-is it even worth it?

Pros: Obviousl if you start with 50$-you arent rolled for anything higher,heck you aren't even rolled for the 0.01/0.02.But if you started with 50$ and doubled your roll by playing this level and seem to beat it easily-at what point do you move up?
Cons:
- I've ben told that 0.02/0.05 and 0.05/0.1 really do not differ from 2NL(maybe will have little less idiots who call all the way with 92o and backdoor flush)
-Playing 5nl or 10nl you are paying more rake then 2nl,therefore earning the bonus faster.Is playing 2nl to cash a bonus of,say,50$ even possible?
Usually people say-move up when you are comfortable with it,but should one start to move up early in order to chase a bonus?

I'd like to see a discussion about the next step of a poker player who is trying to grind out his bankroll.What will be his goal? For me it is improving my game,while I play LAG,my goal is to tighten up and learn a decent TAG game. While playing lose you get paid off more often- you also get stackd more when holding trouble hands like Axs(x being low kicker) or J9,hitting J but being outkicked by AJ. Meanwile I plan on cashing out my bodog account and creating another one where I will deposit in order to get fre PokerEdge sofware. My problem with that is-bodog's lowest limits are 10NL for which Im not rolled and that means either letting go of the additional 10% bonus or wait untill Im rolled for 10NL and switch my roll to bodog,cashing out both the software and 10%.
Please advise and point out the flaws in my thinking.

Until your br is $500 (perhaps even $1k these days) you just need to find the best games you can.
Normally that means finding a site with lots of volume, but im sure some micro games are better than others.

You really, really shouldn't get stacked with ace low kicker. And multitabling shouldn't have any impact on your BR management - if you are rolled to play one table of a particular limit you are rolled to play 2, or 4, or 6 (assuming you are a winning player, of course).

I probably should have pointed this out in my post, but when you're playing $0.01/0.02, no rake is being dropped until the pot reached 50bb ($1) on PokerStars, so you aren't paying hardly any rake at all in comparison to what you will pay at 10nl and up.

Feel free to do what you want to, but this is the best advice I can give you:

Continue playing 2nl on PokerStars, move up to 5nl when your bankroll reaches $100 and move up to 10nl when your bankroll reaches $200. Move up to 25nl when your bankroll reaches $500-600 or whatever you're comfortable with, but regularly post hands after your sessions and become a better player.

Once you're beating 25nl on PokerStars, get rakeback at Full Tilt and move your bankroll there to work on the $600 bonus. At full ring it converts at about $0.60/hour per table at 25nl and $1.14/hour per table at 50nl (numbers taken from bonuswhores), which isn't particularly bad, but it's released in increments of $20 so you don't have to wait forever to see some of the fruits of your labor. Now the rake won't be as much of a factor and you can work on your game even more.

From there it's up to you once you've finished the bonus. You can move back to PokerStars next year and try to make Supernova or whatever you want to do with your bankroll.

On a bit of a side note, don't buy anymore software - you don't need it, and it's a massive waste of time and money for you right now.

Remember that the whole point of a bonus is to limit your losses while you're learning to grind -- not to be the winnings themselves.

Originally Posted by biondino

You really, really shouldn't get stacked with ace low kicker. And multitabling shouldn't have any impact on your BR management - if you are rolled to play one table of a particular limit you are rolled to play 2, or 4, or 6 (assuming you are a winning player, of course).

I don't, it was just an example of variance.
It's an interesting approach to BR management,splitting BR into buy ins but don't you think that it only takes one really bad session when you get on tilt and flush 40% of your roll(say you got 20 buy ins,8 tabling) since no one is immune to tilt.There has to be more to that strategy,how would you prevent flushing a good prtion of your roll in one night?(i mean even a winning player has bad sessions)

I probably should have pointed this out in my post, but when you're playing $0.01/0.02, no rake is being dropped until the pot reached 50bb ($1) on PokerStars, so you aren't paying hardly any rake at all in comparison to what you will pay at 10nl and up

I supose it is a good thing unless you need to rake up the ffps, but even there I've paid almost 45$ worth of rake through 18k hands so a breakeven player would really struggle here...

On a bit of a side note, don't buy anymore software - you don't need it, and it's a massive waste of time and money for you right now

You might have misunderstood,but if not, could you please be more specific why. I dont plan on buying it, just transfer some funds from account into another to get it for free. My reason is not only because its free,but i need something with hud to track bodog's ring games,which is where i plan on playing 10nl.

I supose it is a good thing unless you need to rake up the ffps, but even there I've paid almost 45$ worth of rake through 18k hands so a breakeven player would really struggle here...

18k hands of 2nl being raked for $45 is over 6 ptbb/100, which I don't believe. You're either using the wrong numbers or those hands include non-2nl hands. At 100nl, every pot that sees a flop is raked and I'm only paying ~3 ptbb/100 in rake, so I know at 2nl where you're only paying rake on hands you win where the pot is over 50bb it can't be more than twice that.

It's an interesting approach to BR management,splitting BR into buy ins but don't you think that it only takes one really bad session when you get on tilt and flush 40% of your roll(say you got 20 buy ins,8 tabling) since no one is immune to tilt.There has to be more to that strategy,how would you prevent flushing a good prtion of your roll in one night?(i mean even a winning player has bad sessions)

You should never keep playing long enough to lose 8+ buyins in one sitting. If someone does this, it's their fault, and not the fault of the way they're supposed to manage their bankroll. Not pointing any fingers, but that's pretty much just how it is.

On a bit of a side note, don't buy anymore software - you don't need it, and it's a massive waste of time and money for you right now.

PokerOffice is the only piece of software you need right now, and that's just to record your stats so you can more readily identify leaks as you move up through the microstakes into low stakes and beyond. Any other piece of software, even HUDs, is probably detrimental at this point (albeit there are few exceptions, like PokerEV). Not that it matters, because like most beginners I'm pretty sure you're going to ignore that and go right on ahead and use it, so I'll quit wasting my time typing about it.

But on the subject of rake, there is something you should know about Bodog. This is their rake schedule for 10nl:

2-3 plrs 0.01 on each $0.20 - max = 0.02
4-5 plrs 0.01 on each $0.20 - max = 0.05
6+ plrs 0.01 on each $0.20 - max = 0.10

This leads to a bit more rake being taken out than at PokerStars since at Bodog every pot that reaches the flop will drop rake but at PokerStars only hands that reach 10bb will drop. Then hands higher than 10bb but less than 20bb won't drop rake again at PokerStars, but they will at Bodog.

So overall, if you stick to the advice I gave in my previous post then you'll be subject to less rake and have a lot more of a chance to improve your game while preserving your bankroll.

Just remember, I wouldn't spend my time typing out this long of a post if I hadn't been there before and really knew what I was talking about, so maybe you should do something most beginners don't do and actually take the advice they get from people who have been there, and done that.

Spoonitnow gave a lot of good advice (although we disagree regarding Poker Tracker). Follow it!

Couple of questions.
1) Are you US based? If not, bonus chasing gets a whole lot easier - see my old blog-ops thread for illustration
2) Could you set aside another $200 for poker? this would let you move up through the limits a lot more quickly. If you can stick to BR guidelines then you are better off playing $5NL than $2NL, as long as you aren't a losing player at $2NL

and some comments
* Be careful bonus and rakeback chasing, first deposit bonuses are once only so you want to maximise the return from them
* If you are able to quit a losing session AND multi-table at about the same level as you single-table, then playing with more than 5% of your bankroll is fine. If you've got thirty buy-ins then by all means play three tables
* Download Poker Tracker for the free trial. Then buy it. It's invaluable for tracking your play, storing hand histories for analysis and posting here for discussion, etc. $45 isn't much to spend in the context of most sports and recreations. People argue it's not worth it for playing low limits. I disagree, it's better to improve your game before the potential losses become material...
* Learn a decent TAG game. I have played around with LAGgy play, and am only now starting to learn what simple TAG poker really is. By TAG I mean something like 17-14-4 playing 6-max NL.
* Make sure to investigate rakeback BEFORE opening any new accounts anywhere.

Originally Posted by daven

Spoonitnow gave a lot of good advice (although we disagree regarding Poker Tracker). Follow it!

Just to clarify, I think having one of Poker Tracker or PokerOffice is fine but having both isn't necessary anymore I believe. FWIW, I prefer Poker Tracker, but if he already has PokerOffice then there's not really any need to get PT.

Appreciate the feedback,spoonitnow. I wouldnt make my 1st long post if I wasnt going to listen either
My PO is at 17056 hands right now just for 2nl(ive got seperate stats for 5nl) and BB/100 is at 10.95. Might be a mess up in numbers on the pregram's part since a month ago it was at around 7. 2nl is not exactly 100nl-not that many thinking players involved so I wouldnt compare.

Agreed on the roll management,I guess it just isnt my cup of tea since I struggle with rational thinking while on tilt.

I did notice I was paying more rake on Bodog, but it was worth it since 10nl is free money there(atleast is used to be a few months ago when I tried freerolling my BR up the limits and actually played ring there)

Off topic. Just curious, when you started learning poker, which limits did you start with?

**Bump** Posted only to see 2 more posts were posted just before I did

1) Are you US based? If not, Bonus chasing gets a whole lot easier - see my old blog-ops thread for illustration
2) Could you set aside another $200 for poker? this would let you move up through the limits a lot more quickly. If you can stick to BR guidelines then you are better off playing $5NL than $2NL, as long as you aren't a losing player at $2NL

Unfortunately I do play from US. I wouldn't put any more money into poker unless I have a very good reason for it. I just don't trust myself with bigger roll and virtually no experience. Ironically I do a little trading/investing for college money and risk management is something I have a lot of experience with,however when it comes to poker-I've been proven to be unable to implement the rules and follow through with them so honestly I don't trust myself when Im in an unstable state of mind(tilt).
Either way if I do keep playing well-the extra 200 will appear in a matter of few months(maybe Im overestimating myself) and it will make me feel better if I actually earned it.

Originally Posted by BigBadBull

Off topic. Just curious, when you started learning poker, which limits did you start with?

$6 SnG's, 10-player and 50-player. Full Ring $10 and $25. Then some limit between $0.1-0.2 and $2-$4. Ooops. Somehow managed to bring it all back to break-even, and then some profit and then some more profit. Then i started learning about poker, bankroll management, etc., withdrew all money and started all over again a couple of months ago playing at $5NL...

Originally Posted by BigBadBull

Appreciate the feedback,spoonitnow. I wouldnt make my 1st long post if I wasnt going to listen either
My PO is at 17056 hands right now just for 2nl(ive got seperate stats for 5nl) and BB/100 is at 10.95. Might be a mess up in numbers on the pregram's part since a month ago it was at around 7. 2nl is not exactly 100nl-not that many thinking players involved so I wouldnt compare.

Agreed on the roll management,I guess it just isnt my cup of tea since I struggle with rational thinking while on tilt.

I did notice I was paying more rake on Bodog, but it was worth it since 10nl is free money there(atleast is used to be a few months ago when I tried freerolling my BR up the limits and actually played ring there)

Off topic. Just curious, when you started learning poker, which limits did you start with?

With the rates at 2nl over your sample I was talking about just the rake you had paid, not your actual winrate -- that's why I used 100nl as a comparison.

When I started learning poker, I started at $0.05/0.10 limit holdem and I kept a record of my sessions in a notebook. I read Small Stakes Holdem and the forums here, and grinded my ass off. I ended up making the switch to 6-max no limit holdem and grinded my way up into 100nl before I quit poker and spent my bankroll on tuition last fall.

Earlier this year I borrowed $200 from an FTR'r that I won't name and grinded full ring at 10nl on PokerStars. That was in May when I borrowed the money, and I just recently moved down from 200nl to 100nl last month to work on my game.

I think the spoonitnow is dispensing the best advice for new players at this time. Great advice. Beginners should listen up... I'm paying close attention my self, even though I should know most of what he's talking about by now.