Can I fold KK preflop?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $56.12
Hero: $116.50
CO: $73
Button: $96.50
SB: $156.16
BB: $112.33

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K K
UTG raises to $3.5, Hero raises to $12, CO folds, Button calls, SB raises all-in $156.16, 2 folds, Hero ??

Is this AA often enough to justify a fold?

i dont fold it ,,,,unless villain is a complete nit or a good player ..but even then i probably call anyways ..

I fold it, but only from personal experience lol. Looks like AA to me with the huge re raise after you raise AND button calls.

If you have a read that the villian is competant, than fold, otherwise call. If the guy let the timer tick down and then pushed I call.

Fold, unless they guy is a 'tard who might push AK here.

the call is standard

the fold is the exception, but given a decent read it can also be standard

It isn't always AA.... I know in my example I have the AA, but just wanting to show the 3rd bet isn't always AA/KK. I don't think I would have folded KK here either... Although I would have taken just a bit longer to call.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($82.20)
CO ($78)
Button ($195.70)
SB ($45.60)
BB ($164.60)
UTG ($102.40)
UTG+1 ($40.30)
Hero ($101)
MP2 ($190.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, A.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $4, Hero raises to $13.5, 3 folds, Button raises to $195.7, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $36.40 (All-In), Hero calls $87.50 (All-In).

Flop: ($338.60) 6, T, 6 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($338.60) 5 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($338.60) 8 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $338.60

UTG+1 has T A (two pair, tens and sixes).
Hero has A A (two pair, aces and sixes).
Button has K A (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $243.90. Button wins $94.70.

Folding KK preflop is solely a good reads decision. Against an unknown, it is always a call.

It's pretty impossible to put an unknown on only AA in that spot. BUT...is QQ+ likely? If you think so then you are 50% vs. that range, and AA seems more likely than QQ.

in 10k hands at pokerstars I've never seen someone 3 bet AI w/ QQ.

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

in 10k hands at pokerstars I've never seen someone 3 bet AI w/ QQ.

which makes calling in these spots even more marginal imo.

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

in 10k hands at pokerstars I've never seen someone 3 bet AI w/ QQ.

This is a 4bet and in a 10k hand sample Ive lost with both AA and KK, so that doesnt mean a ton. Anyways though, how many of those hands went to showdown, are you positive you saw all of them? If seen people do this with absolute junk and also decent hands [but not hands strong enough to play like this] like AQ. I think if you fold here without reads you are giving up money, even with reads I dont know if I can put somebody solely on AA and fold. With a ridiculous overbet like this, a lot of other factors come into play. Are they tilting? Have they made moves like this before? Etc.

But basically what Im saying here is that you cant fold KK to an unknown especially with a ridiculous bet that most people wouldnt make with a hand they want action with.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

in 10k hands at pokerstars I've never seen someone 3 bet AI w/ QQ.

This is a 4bet and in a 10k hand sample Ive lost with both AA and KK, so that doesnt mean a ton. Anyways though, how many of those hands went to showdown, are you positive you saw all of them? If seen people do this with absolute junk and also decent hands [but not hands strong enough to play like this] like AQ. I think if you fold here without reads you are giving up money, even with reads I dont know if I can put somebody solely on AA and fold. With a ridiculous overbet like this, a lot of other factors come into play. Are they tilting? Have they made moves like this before? Etc.

But basically what Im saying here is that you cant fold KK to an unknown especially with a ridiculous bet that most people wouldnt make with a hand they want action with.

sb's ai is the 3rd bet, and no im not folding KK to an unknown but if I know villian is anything but a donk I will lay down KK to this bet.

i thought this was a straight forward fold considering how much of a skill edge we expect to have in this game when the money goes in in other spots...

I'd call for sure if the money was less deep. 120BB i'm thinking he's praying for a call.

Need a read though.

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

sb's ai is the 3rd bet, and no im not folding KK to an unknown but if I know villian is anything but a donk I will lay down KK to this bet.

It may be the 3rd literal bet, but it is a 4bet. The first raise is a 2bet, the reraise is a 3bet and the push is a 4bet.

Why would a solid player play AA like this? I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both. If the player is solid and so are you then your 3bet range shouldnt be narrow enough for him to expect his push to be profitable with AA.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

sb's ai is the 3rd bet, and no im not folding KK to an unknown but if I know villian is anything but a donk I will lay down KK to this bet.

It may be the 3rd literal bet, but it is a 4bet. The first raise is a 2bet, the reraise is a 3bet and the push is a 4bet.

Why would a solid player play AA like this? I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both. If the player is solid and so are you then your 3bet range shouldnt be narrow enough for him to expect his push to be profitable with AA.

Note stakes and site (50nl, AP). Opp was/still is? 14/5

STAGE #418222677: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.50 -
Table: DAYTONA BEACH (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 9 - ZIM_BOB ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 1 - POKERNTHEEYE ($17 in chips)
Seat 2 - 2OFAK1ND ($20 in chips)
Seat 3 - PAQUIN16 ($6.10 in chips)
Seat 5 - BILLYDPAINTS ($78.90 in chips)
Seat 6 - MIFFED22001 ($53.85 in chips)
POKERNTHEEYE - Posts small blind $0.25
2OFAK1ND - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to MIFFED22001 [Kd Ks]
PAQUIN16 - Folds
BILLYDPAINTS - Raises $2 to $2
MIFFED22001 - Raises $6 to $6
ZIM_BOB - All-In(Raise) $98.50 to $98.50
POKERNTHEEYE - Folds
2OFAK1ND - Folds
BILLYDPAINTS - Folds
MIFFED22001 - Folds
ZIM_BOB - returned ($92.50) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ZIM_BOB - Shows [Ad Ac]
ZIM_BOB Collects $14.75 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($14.75)
Seat 1: POKERNTHEEYE (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: 2OFAK1ND (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: PAQUIN16 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: BILLYDPAINTS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: MIFFED22001 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: ZIM_BOB (dealer) collected Total ($14.75) All-In

ahem, nice fold. Thats the first and probably last time i do that.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i thought this was a straight forward fold considering how much of a skill edge we expect to have in this game when the money goes in in other spots...

That's an absurd reason to advocate folding. If you think the call is +EV (which dear god it clearly is against an unknown at this limit) you call assuming you're rolled for the limit. It's not even a marginal call either. After the button overcalls he is pushing a much wider range for isolation, hands like QQ-TT/AK. I'd almost expect your average 50nl player to minreraise back or something rather than just shove with AA.

You didn't include a read, so I'm assuming you don't have one, so call. Since you posted it I'm sure he probably had aces, but it was the right call no doubt. Don't fold KK preflop against unknowns, and I wouldn't ever do it against almost anybody at 6 max without a read that the guy was a super nit or something.

I fold. If I can. If I call it is a tilt play on my side and I expect to cry when he flips aces.

lol @ all of this.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both.

Sounds like a good reason for villain to shove

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both.

Sounds like a good reason for villain to shove

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would a solid player play AA like this? I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both. If the player is solid and so are you then your 3bet range shouldnt be narrow enough for him to expect his push to be profitable with AA.

That should explain why it isnt a good reason to push. I should change
what I said before, a push with AA pf is always profitable, in this situation I dont think it is most profitable.

If I am 3betting with SCs, mid-high PPs, broadway cards and sometimes random hands, why push against my 3bet when Im calling that with only a tiny portion of my range? If you are against a person that will only 3bet QQ+,AK or whatever and will never fold to a push then yea, thats fine.

Let me know when you find a player who is that tight but also cant fold to an overbet push.

lol, open pushing here as villain in sb with AA is sooooo +ev becuase everybody thinks you wouldnt just push AA like that, and anyway noone can laydown hands preflop at these stakes anyway so just watch them call.
QQ would call here imo on that site, or 3 bet, it wouldnt just shove all in. If this were stars would we even be having thsi conversation? Crypto is hardly donktastic, but easy enough to beat, for this to never be less than KK and nearly always AA.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both.

Sounds like a good reason for villain to shove

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would a solid player play AA like this? I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both. If the player is solid and so are you then your 3bet range shouldnt be narrow enough for him to expect his push to be profitable with AA.

That should explain why it isnt a good reason to push. I should change
what I said before, a push with AA pf is always profitable, in this situation I dont think it is most profitable.

If I am 3betting with SCs, mid-high PPs, broadway cards and sometimes random hands, why push against my 3bet when Im calling that with only a tiny portion of my range? If you are against a person that will only 3bet QQ+,AK or whatever and will never fold to a push then yea, thats fine.

Let me know when you find a player who is that tight but also cant fold to an overbet push.

I was only half serious, andy. In villain's spot with AA, I'm reraising to $40 preflop and hoping someone shoves over with KK.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would a solid player play AA like this?

He wouldn't. But just because he isn't solid doesn't mean he isn't a weak nit. I've seen lots of multi-tabling tags in low limits that auto-push AA/KK when they get re-raised pre-flop. These are not solid players.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

lol, open pushing here as villain in sb with AA is sooooo +ev becuase everybody thinks you wouldnt just push AA like that, and anyway noone can laydown hands preflop at these stakes anyway so just watch them call.
QQ would call here imo on that site, or 3 bet, it wouldnt just shove all in. If this were stars would we even be having thsi conversation? Crypto is hardly donktastic, but easy enough to beat, for this to never be less than KK and nearly always AA.

Why are you judging players by the site they play on? That's just retarded. This is 50nl, people aren't playing so solidly and make a ridiculous amount of mistakes, overcommitting with medium-biggish pairs preflop being one of them. For 100bbs against an unknown player at 6max at 50nl it's practically a sin to fold KK preflop.

Originally Posted by aislephive

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

lol, open pushing here as villain in sb with AA is sooooo +ev becuase everybody thinks you wouldnt just push AA like that, and anyway noone can laydown hands preflop at these stakes anyway so just watch them call.
QQ would call here imo on that site, or 3 bet, it wouldnt just shove all in. If this were stars would we even be having thsi conversation? Crypto is hardly donktastic, but easy enough to beat, for this to never be less than KK and nearly always AA.

Why are you judging players by the site they play on? That's just retarded. This is 50nl, people aren't playing so solidly and make a ridiculous amount of mistakes, overcommitting with medium-biggish pairs preflop being one of them. For 100bbs against an unknown player at 6max at 50nl it's practically a sin to fold KK preflop.

This statement is retarded in so many ways its funny.
1. Its 100nl
2. You sound like youve played on one site all your life. Just becuase Party's donktastic fish push less than AA desnt mean it happens at other sites. Have you played on crypto?
3. The game in general isnt as donktastic as it was 6months ago at 100nl, players dont just commit a 100bbs stack with nothing.
4. If you want to argue that players dont play differently, go play on stars and B2b then go to somewhere like the boss network and tell me those players have the same level of skill becuase i will state now, they do not, nor do they play the same

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by aislephive

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

lol, open pushing here as villain in sb with AA is sooooo +ev becuase everybody thinks you wouldnt just push AA like that, and anyway noone can laydown hands preflop at these stakes anyway so just watch them call.
QQ would call here imo on that site, or 3 bet, it wouldnt just shove all in. If this were stars would we even be having thsi conversation? Crypto is hardly donktastic, but easy enough to beat, for this to never be less than KK and nearly always AA.

Why are you judging players by the site they play on? That's just retarded. This is 50nl, people aren't playing so solidly and make a ridiculous amount of mistakes, overcommitting with medium-biggish pairs preflop being one of them. For 100bbs against an unknown player at 6max at 50nl it's practically a sin to fold KK preflop.

This statement is retarded in so many ways its funny.
1. Its 100nl

Zomg it's 100nl the play is so solid there ..

2. You sound like youve played on one site all your life. Just becuase Party's donktastic fish push less than AA desnt mean it happens at other sites. Have you played on crypto?

Yes one site, UB, Pokerstars, PartyPoker, and now FTP.

3. The game in general isnt as donktastic as it was 6months ago at 100nl, players dont just commit a 100bbs stack with nothing.

So anything that isn't AA/KK is nothing now?

4. If you want to argue that players dont play differently, go play on stars and B2b then go to somewhere like the boss network and tell me those players have the same level of skill becuase i will state now, they do not, nor do they play the same

I never said they don't play differently, but they don't play much different. There are no tough 100nl games and the players make irrational plays all the time. You don't even have a read on the guy, folding here is stupid. You can't be like "well this is the b2b network so this player must have aces where as on party it could be TT+ / AK. Those are poor impractical generalizations.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I thought this was a straight forward fold considering how much of a skill edge we expect to have in this game when the money goes in in other spots...

I agree with this, and it's an element frequently overlooked. The guy is in essence saying the following with his bet...

"Either I have AA now, or I intend to give out implied odds like candy in the future"

Either way folding KK in a spot like that isn't a huge mistake. I still call a lot, but you have to keep this kind of thing in mind.

Folding when you have 80% equity in a 200bb pot is a ridiculously huge mistake, and I don't care how big of an edge you have in the game, you aren't leveraging that edge so much that it can overcome a mistake that big.

Considering an unknown's range that he fourbet pushes, you don't have quite 80% pot equity. More like 65-70%. So basically, in folding KK here to an unknown, you are throwing away 120-140 dollars of equity. Thats a fairly big mistake.

Originally Posted by Renton

Folding when you have 80% equity in a 200bb pot is a ridiculously huge mistake, and I don't care how big of an edge you have in the game, you aren't leveraging that edge so much that it can overcome a mistake that big.

Considering an unknown's range that he fourbet pushes, you don't have quite 80% pot equity. More like 65-70%. So basically, in folding KK here to an unknown, you are throwing away 120-140 dollars of equity. Thats a fairly big mistake.

wtf is a fourbet push range? I see AA/KK at 100nl. What other hands are their

Why are you judging players by the site they play on? That's just retarded

I never said they don't play differently, but they don't play much different.

Im a big fan of your advice, but these are possibly two of the most retarded things ive seen written.
For that reason ill just agree to strongly disagree with you.

Folding here isnt a huge mistake IMO, and its much less of a mistake than calling every time.

I'll admit that I did misread the preflop action, I thought it went - UTG raises, OP reraises, button overcalls, folds to UTG who pushes. The SB's push like that is very suspicious. Against a good player or at least one you have respect for I think you could fold. But without any kind of read I'm still not folding for 100bbs, with a read I could definitely find a fold. If I was SB I'd have AA/KK 98% of the time there (although I would make a standard 4 bet instead of an open shove).

Still, lots of players at this limit see AK and remember Mike Sexton on the WPT and their favorite player went all in with it and won or something silly and play it like they have the nuts, same with QQ/JJ/TT and sometimes even AQ. You have to know something about this player before you consider folding, either he is tight or never raises or is solid, etc. So many players at SSNL are practically giving money away that you have to know the kind of player you're dealing with.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by Renton

Folding when you have 80% equity in a 200bb pot is a ridiculously huge mistake, and I don't care how big of an edge you have in the game, you aren't leveraging that edge so much that it can overcome a mistake that big.

Considering an unknown's range that he fourbet pushes, you don't have quite 80% pot equity. More like 65-70%. So basically, in folding KK here to an unknown, you are throwing away 120-140 dollars of equity. Thats a fairly big mistake.

wtf is a fourbet push range? I see AA/KK at 100nl. What other hands are their

Basically what Renton is saying is that if there's any doubt at all he has AA you have to call, because your equity edge is so huge. I agree with that. It's a very fine line however. A line sometimes not worth parcing. When it boils down to it, you're holding the second best hand in poker.

The doubt in this hand could be conceived as you're short, and he's tall, therefore he might be willing to gamble with his equity against you. In this spot you should call based on that at least.

Let's just say I've folded KK preflop once or twice EVER, and leave it there. I was always correct in doing so, but that's because I left nothing to the imagination in my read.

ill agree with the last two posts, im not trying to say folding KK should be stanard, but their are at least circumstances where that exists.
Sometimes i ask myself whether pot equity>reads all the time, because i feel it doesnt.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Sometimes i ask myself whether pot equity>reads all the time, because i feel it doesnt.

Reads > Pot Equity mostly, but the better your equity, the tighter the read has to be. To the point where I believe most players are incapable of making reads tight enough to fold KK preflop.

i thnk this is a fold here - raise and big re-raise in front follow by a push...pretty clear - im guessing he said something to the effect of "im tired of getting my aces cracked everytime" after he showed them?

anyway, what i wanted to bring up is that yes, standard re-pop from the small blind is most of our plays with AA here...but don't you guys ever just push AA or KK in the same spot hoping to get a call? Not often, just once in awhile to throw things off for opponents? One of my favorite spots to overbet a big pair is on the button - Simply because nobody will put me on that hand - I think you have to trick people at least some of the time....not standard line, but sometimes I think its good -

this could be one of those times - so i don't think we can dismiss AA just because thats not how we play it 9/10 times...to me it strongly suggests that exact hand

Call every time unless you have an excellent read to say otherwise. Why would someone reraise that much with AA? Unless they are utterly retarted.... which is a possibility..

But still its a call IMO. I would prob think for 5 seconds call and pray he hasnt got AA

Just so you don't die asking yourself what happened in this hand, Hero called, Button called...Button as well as SB showed AA.

I kinda stole this hand from another board, and I was getting a bit ridiculed for wanting to fold my KK here, but if I can be 99% to run into Aces, it is in a spot like this. After I see that there are a shitload of people here as well who would call in this situation, in the future I will probably try simply pushing AA if it comes to me raised and reraised.

Miffed, I like your reasoning very much, especially the part about a fourbet/push range. I don't see much besides AA/KK for this stunt for myself, and I am not quite a nit.

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Call every time unless you have an excellent read to say otherwise. Why would someone reraise that much with AA? Unless they are utterly retarted.... which is a possibility..

But still its a call IMO. I would prob think for 5 seconds call and pray he hasnt got AA

No, this is not a call every time. You do not need an excellent read here. Look at what the action suggests. It doesn't matter if you think AA vs. KK only happens X many times or that you've only seen it X many times or that one time you saw this exact thing happen and everyone had 72o. Most of the time someone has AA here.

Also, pushing with AA here isn't the worst play in the world. There's already close to 30BB's in the pot and if someone has KK they are usually coming along for the ride.

agreed with ^^^^^^^^^^

90% this is AA - I have called most of the time with KK and sometimes even AK and that is what i have found -