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  1. #1

    Default Comments: aokrongly's 19 Starting Hands

    { Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-34753.htm }


    Ive heard people talk about playing only 19 starting hands as a beginner. Can someone tell me what these hands are. And would any one like to comment on which they would raise with in terms of Xbb? And which they would limp with, and are there some which you would raise with in later but not earlier starting position, many thx.



    {Split and edited by Xianti}
  2. #2
    Staresy's Avatar
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    Well, I have not heard about this 19 hands business, but I would hazard a guess that these are the 13 pocket pairs plus the 6 Broadway combinations. However, I would not just stick with this. Sure, as a beginner you are looking to minimise the number of hands you play and generally try and stick to playing the top-end cards to maximise your chances of winning and minimise your chances of losing.

    The big problem is that I could type all day about different situations where I would do something entirely different. It all depends (and not in any specific order) on;

    The texture of the table in general
    The position on the table of the TAggs and the LAggs
    The number of players left
    The size of my stack
    The size of everyone else’s stacks
    The size of the blinds
    My position

    The general raise would be 3-4xBB plus one additional BB for every limper already in the pot. i.e. If I am first to enter a pot and am doing so with a raise, I will go for 3-4 x BB. If I am the 2nd or 3rd to enter the pot and the people before me have both limped, I will raise to 5-6xBB.

    However, if we take those 19 hands as a guideline;

    Early Position
    I am limping pp’s up to, and sometimes possibly including, JJ.
    QQ-AA is a raise and, if faced with a raise, KK and AA are a re-raise to me. QQ are a call or raise, depending on reads
    I will call a small raise with pp’s and look to hit a set, but will not become too attached to my pp.
    I can take or leave AJ and I will probably fold KJ, KQ and QJ. I will almost certainly fold these hands to a raise.
    AK and AQ are probably raises but I would only call a raise with these hands.

    Middle Position
    I am still limping pp’s, but am looking to raise if I am first into the pot with anything down to about 99 now.
    QQAA are all raise and re-raise hands.
    AJ and KQ are probably now raising hands, certainly callable, but would still probably fold to an EP raise.

    Late Position
    Again, all dependant on the action in front of you, but if it is folded to you in LP, all those 19 hands are pretty much raisable.

    That is just my general overview and there is far more I could put. My advice would be just to read up (books and on here) and play. Post your HH’s on here and ask questions. People are more than willing to help you out. Don’t be afraid to ask because that is how you learn.

    Good luck and welcome to FTR!

    – Staresy
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  3. #3
    Hello Starsey, can i just say thanks very much for taking time out to write such a full reply.
    Could i ask a couple of questions.. Not come across abreviations TAggs and LAggs, what are they, and also which are the 6 hands other than the pairs...im guessing AKs AK AQs AQ KQs and AJs?
    One last thing, if youre folding some fairly strong hole cards to raises, do you not worry your missing oppotunitys, because i play at 10c/20c tables where i believe many players are still limping in and calling down with junk, are you not tempted to call raises with lower starting hands like JTs in middle pos? Many thx Joe

    This site is excellent, being reading for a week now, the whole ethos of helping your potential opponents to improve is very alturistic and slightly strange as well, but the spirit of this site is great, congratulations to all involved...
  4. #4
    TAgg - Tight Aggressive
    LAgg - Loose Aggressive
    >3

    this is my favourite part of the post
    it looks like angry boobs
  5. #5
    cheers
  6. #6
    >3

    this is my favourite part of the post
    it looks like angry boobs
  7. #7
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    Default starters

    Found this on my own quest and thought of you.

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_starting_hands.html
  8. #8
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    Thanks for the details of that, indeed.

    Just to make sure I've got some of that:
    * It's not good for tourneys because the standard ratio of blind/max-stack for ring is acceptable losses for the tight play, right?
    * I've seen you post a good deal about the over-emphasis people make on suited versus unsuited, and certainly you haven't made that distinction here in your 19 hand approach. Is that primarily for simplicity, or deeply rooted in the overvaluing of suited hands?

    thanks
    Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunk
    Thanks for the details of that, indeed.

    Just to make sure I've got some of that:
    * It's not good for tourneys because the standard ratio of blind/max-stack for ring is acceptable losses for the tight play, right?
    Exactly, and plus tourneys can me alot more situational. For example there are alot more reasons to raise not-so-good hands, blind steals for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunk
    * I've seen you post a good deal about the over-emphasis people make on suited versus unsuited, and certainly you haven't made that distinction here in your 19 hand approach. Is that primarily for simplicity, or deeply rooted in the overvaluing of suited hands?
    Yep, you got it. Suitedness adds about 2% or whatever. Its minimal yet overvalued by lots of players.
  10. #10
    amen - you can get a starting hand chart for 19 hands, read my book and articles and get detailed advice from me at www.performpoker.com

    FTR is a great place to read up on it too. But you need to get the chart if you're going to try 19 hand.

    19 hand is just one of many potential systems of play. But if you're having trouble seeing the angles at a poker table or turning a profit in No Limit then (regardless of it's short-comings) it is a proven system for turning a breakeven or losing beginner into someone who can turn a profit at Nl10 and NL25 at least.

    I appreciate everyone on FTR who helped me develop the book to teach the system.

    If you are interested in more articles by me then below is a mini-digest of some of my articles on FTR.

    I have dozens more free articles on NL Ring, MTT, SnG, 6-Max and my book PERFORMANCE POKER - NO LIMIT! available in full online. Just email me (by clicking my email link below) or PM me (by clicking the PM button below) and I will send you the link to all my writings.

    You can see this in action here:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...753&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-37660.htm

    Here's a mini AOkronlgy Digest:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...057&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...957&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...652&highlight=
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  11. #11
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    Out of curiosity AOK, why do you feel that QJ is worth including in your 19 starting hands but KT isn't?

    I could see raising with either from late position to open the pot, but just calling? If there's 5 other people in with you, surely they're not worth playing for top pair/good kicker value.
  12. #12
    Just for the record, all this is arguable, and there is no "correct answer". It depends on your game, style, etc. The 19 hands were designed to keep newbies out of trouble. I play them because I believe in them and they work for me. Plus I know how to play each of the 19 hands for maximum positive effect and minimum negative effect.

    To answer your question. KT loses to KJ. That may sound like a smartass answer, but it isn't. I consider KJ the worst of the 19 starting hands. Here's why:

    First, I won't play either in a raise pot preflop. People will raise preflop with AJ, AQ, AK, and KQ - especially at micro-NL. So, I'm folding KJ and KQ and JQ in raised hands. That keeps me from playing KQ (where I hit TP) against AK and AQ. I don't play QJ in a raise pot preflop, that keeps me from playing QJ (where I hit TP) against AQ and AJ, and KQ. See how that works. I ask "what do people TYPICALLY raise preflop with - or even call a raise preflop with?" Pocket TT or better KQ at the worst or Ace/face. I don't KNOW if they have any of those, but why get involved if I can't play confidently When I Hit?

    2. People limp all kinds of crap, like KT, K9, Suited K anything, TJ, TQ, AT to suited Ace/trash. So If I hit KJ, KQ, QJ as Top Pair and I'm playing against someone else who also hit top pair then I'm winning 90% of the time. KJ is susceptible to KQ (which many people limp). That's why I'm not overly jazzed about KJ - but I include it because it wins more against KT or lower than it loses to KQ. The rule is to play it carefully and don't call overly large bets and raises. Play it for value (KJ that is).

    3. Raising vs Calling. The 19 hands are based on Performance Poker Rules. The rules that aren't stated here are table selection (45% or higher preflop callers and 20xBB average pot size). If you're using that selection criteria for the tables you play, then raising in late position with these hands WILL NOT thin the field sufficiently, if at all, unless you raise so much that the other players just can't call you and you take the pot right there. In short, with 45% or higher seeing the flop and 20x or greater average pot size, you're going to have to win WITH CARDS the vast majority of the time. This is a table where people don't fold easily, if at all. That's good, you're getting PAID when you win. But you have to win. Hence the 19 hands. They are winners against typical players.

    Now, as you implied, TPTK isn't a great hand against alot of preflop limpers. You're right! That's why postflop play is important too. Also, as a quick note, let's say you're playing KQ late and there are 4 limpers (plus the BB has a tendency to stick around) so you raise KQ 3xBB, who is going to call you? Pocket pairs and people who love getting lucky with drawing hands. They know what you have - AK AQ or a big pocket pair (that's the obvious assumption). So if you hit a King or Queen on the flop, they're done. They don't know your kicker isn't as high as they thought, but it won't matter. If the flop is faceless then you have position - which is good - and you have the initiative, but if you're playing someone who is putting you on AQ or AK and has a pocket pair (and they have a clue) here's what happens. Flop is faceless, PP checks, you make a continuation bet, he raises (probably just doubling your bet) to put you to the test. Either you have to dance with the dragon and RERAISE, or you call (which is THE #1 declaration that you have AK/AQ). So now he knows. Turn is a blank, he bets fairly strong, you fold. Done. You wasted a preflop raise, a continuation bet, AND a call. Alternately, you limp with it, hit it, pocket pair folds and you're playing KTs who thinks he's good so he check/calls your bets all the way through the river.

    I hope this helps. Again, there's alot that is included in Performance Poker - which is a specific style of poker for specific situation (much like Counter-Play) - that isn't included in each post about some aspect of it.

    I know I need to finish the book. I've made nooo progress in the last few months. New job, new house, kids in school, blah, blah, blah.

    Good luck. The main aspect of Performance Poker, however, is to CREATE YOUR OWN GAME. Know exactly why and how you do everythign you do, examine, record, revise, review, become obsessed and curious, etc. etc. (Damn I need to finish the book - it's really good.)

    see ya.
  13. #13
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    Thanks for that reply, AOK. Very well thought out. I understand your stipulation that this strategy is meant for super loose low limit tables, and under those circumstances, it makes perfect sense.

    Now, about AJ, KQ, KJ and QJ -- what would you say is your ideal flop with them?

    With AJ and KJ, is a J high flop better than an A or K on the flop? I agree that top pair with any of these hands in an unraised pot is probably good, but I can't help but feel that with that many limpers, there's a good chance at least one of them has hit 2 pair or trips. Am I just paranoid?

    As far as broadcasting your hand with a raise, I'm not sure most of the people who play at 10NL or ever 25NL would necessarily notice.
  14. #14
    TP is good. I'll delay all my betting 1 street. I make more money that way. If I flop TP I'll check/call. Then I'll put pressure on the Turn. That's just me. I figure if I get a little separation then I get more action. You STILL going to have to win with cards. If someone flopped 2nd pair or tp bad kicker they won't fold even to a raise on the flop. If they pair their kicker on the turn or river, you're going to lose and they will still be in the hand, regardless.

    However, they project their hand 80% of the time. So if you aren't Over betting TPTK then they will declare their 2 pair and you can get out of the way. on $25 NL it looks like this
    pot $1 let's say preflop, flop comes you get TPTK and bet $1, get called by 1 player or 2, pots $3-4 turn hits and you bet $1.50, they raise to $3. YOU'RE BEAT, FOLD.

    Puss NL players don't raise with nothing. They aren't stupid. Does he have 2 pair or did he make a set? Who cares. Save your money.

    In this case you call - because you really like your KQ with a K on the board. River comes.... now what either you bet again and he pushes or you check, he bets, you call and you lose.

    So, yea, don't be paranoid because you will KNOW if they hit 2 pair. They may just call on the flop if they flop 2 pair and then do something on the turn. But they WILL raise, and you shouldn't be betting the farm on tptk anyway.

    good luck.
  15. #15
    Well said , just remember use those rules only if u are very new to poker and u play really micro stakes.
    Sooner or later and as u move up stakes u will understand that u need to play poker in order to make money so dont stuck with this.
    Develop ur game, make adjustments regarding ur table and the players, evolve, thats what performance poker is all about.
  16. #16
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    All good stuff. Question for AOK:

    Do you like betting the pot on the flop with top pair/good kicker at 10NL or 25NL, or something like 2/3-3/4 of the pot? How about on the turn? In the example you gave, it seems like your turn bet is just too weak, and encourages them to stay in and suck out on you.

    What about continuation bets? Do you feel they're profitable at these levels, or are they just trouble?
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDrei
    All good stuff. Question for AOK:

    Do you like betting the pot on the flop with top pair/good kicker at 10NL or 25NL, or something like 2/3-3/4 of the pot? How about on the turn? In the example you gave, it seems like your turn bet is just too weak, and encourages them to stay in and suck out on you.

    What about continuation bets? Do you feel they're profitable at these levels, or are they just trouble?
    You want them to stay in and try to suck out on you if they are behind and there are virtually no hands that a 2/3 pot bet gives good odds to stay in with you if you are ahead. There are 2 exceptions

    1) The pot is already big enough for you to push and take it so you bet big and they call/fold. This is dropping the hammer.

    2) You are going to call an allin if they suck out on you. This is dumb and you need to slap yourself in the face HARD everytime you call an allin against someone other than a habitual bluffer with deep stacks and only TPTK.

    Other than that you can go ahead and be happy every time they call and suck out on you and you fold (or call a small bet) because you know that most of the time they wont get that miracle card and you will make profit from that call.
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

    bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
  18. #18
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    How about in a 3 or 4 way pot? Putting in a bet for 2/3 the pot with 2 or 3 people behind you is a recipe for desaster, I think. Sure, you're not giving anyone good odds to call, but you have to remember you're against calling stations here. They'll call with A high or bottom pair, and as soon as the first one calls, the next one actually /is/ getting good odds to draw.

    I've been doing this in the past and I'm starting to think it costs you too much in the long run. If you're playing against calling stations, and they're going to call you no matter what, might as well make them pay a lot.

    Can anyone really make an argument for betting less than the pot on the flop vs more than one opponent at micro limits?
  19. #19
    Well said Pelion. I have nothing to add to that.

    I'll repeat that standard poker logic indicates larger bet here against multiple players on the flop - however....

    I'll check in this situation and hope someone else bets for me, then, depending on their bet I'll decide whether to call or raise big. I have a couple reasons for doing this.

    First, we're talking about an unraised pot here preflop (we're still talking about that right?) So I have a good idea what types of hands people are playing. My first question is "did one of them hit already?", 2 pair or a set? is there a strong draw (people love flush draws). Now I like making people pay for draws on the turn, not the flop. I'll give a cheap card on the flop (whether I'm betting or doing a come-a-long raise). Also, I prefer doing a check/raise here because if someone hit hard on the flop they will reraise me back and I can fold out of the hand right there. I'm not going to do the betting FOR THE OTHER PERSON in this instance. Finally, I'm always willing to get out of a hand with TPTK. So, before I go betting big (and let's say there are 5 players in the hand on 25NL, counting me, in an unraised pot - that's 1.25 in the pot. Now, if the blinds are in the hand I can almost dismiss their hands as pure junk. So, I'm watching out for the other 2 players first, and if one of the blinds sticks around, then I'm going to be very curious about a lucky hit on the flop - like 2 pair.

    So, how much do I bet here? Let's say I'm early - both blinds check (because they are going to fold anyway now). I'm really playing 2 players here, not 4. (again this is an unraised pot) Do I bet $2.50? Who will call that? I don't want to win $1.25. I want to win at least the average pot (which is $5). So, I'll check and hope one of the trailing players gets interested in the pot and bets .75 or so. I'll call and so will the other guy maybe - that makes the pot $4. Now I'm interested AND I have a good idea of where I stand.

    So the turn comes and I bet $2.50. If I get called I'm probably good. If the original bettor raises then the flop hit him hard and I'm done. If there's a draw I may bet alot less, like .50. Why? I want them to think I'm on the draw. I'm assuming one of them IS really on the draw if there are alot of preflop callers. And I'm HOPING one of them has TP bad kicker. So I bet .50 hoping for a $2 raise that I can then just call (nailing home the message "I'M ON THE DRAW" AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE 2.50 BET I WAS GOING TO MAKE ANYWAY). The turn is no help (TO THE DRAW) so I check (MAINTINING THE DECEPTION)- he bets again this time bigger (now the pot is getting where I want it to be) and I call him. River is no help (TO THE DRAW). Now 1 of 3 things just happened:

    1. He was on the draw and semi-bluffing. Not likely. But if that's the case then he checks or folds no matter what I do.
    2. He had me beat on the flop. A possibility, but hey that's poker.
    3. I have him. He has Top Pair bad kicker or ANY pair and he has sold out that I'm on the draw and just missed big time.

    In all those cases there's one solution. Come out with a big bet. Depending on the betting, at this point the pot is between $5 and $10. So I come out for $10. He either folds (because he was going to fold anyway), Pushes (because he has me smoked) so I fold, OR Calls and I take most his stack.

    If I had bet $2 on the flop with my TP then I would have won $1.25 or just been called and had no idea where I stood. By taking decent odds that I AM ahead and will probably Stay ahead OR that I am behind and he will let me know on the turn. Either way I'm betting less on the flop or checking. Then I have either saved money by letting him declare his hand, or make ALOT more money by taking a one beat pause. There is the chance he catches up on the river OR that he has mondo balls and pushes with a weaker hand than TPTK against my $10 bet and gets me to fold. But that is HIGHLY unlikely AND that $10 bet is also what I would do with a set or 2 pair of my own. So, there's no way for him to know and on another hand I can bust him for his whole stack (or someone else) when they try the same thing.

    That's my rambling answer.
  20. #20
    Jiggus Guest
    I can tell you what my experience has been with the micro-limit game, and maybe there's something in there that you can use. I'm no expert, but I have been "specialising" in $2NL for about 16,000 hands now.

    I used to follow Aok's Performance Poker 19 starting hand strategy and betting advice religiously. I tworks fine. However, for the last 1000 hands or so, I've been loosening up a lot in late position, or when the table is extremely passive, I'll call with anything semi-decent -- if the pot is unraised -- from almost any position.

    I will NOT raise pre-flop with AK or AQ, as is Aok's advice. The only hands I'm raising with pre-flop are AA, KK, QQ and JJ. The rest is all limped. With the aforementioned hands, I will continuation bet usually 2/3 or the whole pot.

    If I've got AA, I'll see the thing through no matter what, so I'll keep raising. If I have KK and there's an Ace on the board, well, usually someone has the other ace, so that's going to give me pause for concern. Same goes for QQ and JJ.

    I am playing exceedingly passively -- basically using Aok's Counterplay -- and I am doing very well at these limits.

    I suppose my advice, therefore, is to not raise so much pre-flop to minimise the use of continuation bets. People will call you anyways at these limits, unless you're at a table of players who you can see are trying to take the game more seriously.

    I can already hear the nay-sayers to this advice, but I suspect that none 0f them remember how it is to play at these ridiculous limits. Whatever, I'm winning.

    I don't know what limits you're at, but I have managed to make 67 bucks over the past month at the $.01/$.02 tables which is not too bad, I reckon. Say, 800 hands per week.

    Check out Aok's post on Counterplay. It's the only way to play against the sort of opponent you meet at the micro-limits.

    Oh, and the weekends are the best time for making cash, at least at Paradise, using this passive approach.

    Jigs
  21. #21
    It's always good to hear when people are doing well with my strategies. Congratulations!!
  22. #22
    Congrats Jiggus. It seems that u realize perfect not only the 19 hands strategy but when and where to use it too. Hope u build ur bankroll soon and move up to higher stakes.
    Good luck with your game
  23. #23
    If you don't know this yet....buy Harrington on Hold'em Vol I and II....especially if you are planning on playing in any tourneys....these books helped my game immensely and I have heard nothing but utter praise for these books from anyone on this site.
  24. #24
    great thread guys, bookmarked

    nice to hear of the different lines to take with these TP hands and the benefits...

    will try and incorporate this play into my game as i usueally dont bother with AJ, KJ or QJ. I must re-read this thread at least once a week
    Experimenting - 200NL 5max.

    "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
  25. #25
    Jiggus Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MannerBoy
    Congrats Jiggus. It seems that u realize perfect not only the 19 hands strategy but when and where to use it too. Hope u build ur bankroll soon and move up to higher stakes.
    Good luck with your game
    Thanks, MannerBoy, Aok. I wasnt' fishing for compliments, but much appreciated anyways.

    Hope you get your money back MB.
  26. #26
    No really i understand that u know to use that strategy well and u are aware that it works on certain stakes. It wasnt a compliment , it was the truth i guess.
    Yea i hope too
    Poker is a sick game and not everyone can play it in higher level, it can change u as a person.
    You can talk the game , but can u play it ?
    Anyway good luck hope u killing the tales and soon u move up ! Im pretty sure u can play succesfull in a little higher stakes than the stakes u play now.
  27. #27
    So I bet .50 hoping for a $2 raise that I can then just call (nailing home the message "I'M ON THE DRAW" AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE 2.50 BET I WAS GOING TO MAKE ANYWAY).
    I like that strategy;it's not a bad idea.[/quote]
  28. #28
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    {This thread has been edited by me - all non-topic posts were edited out}
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    come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com
  29. #29
    bump

    tired of loking for it
  30. #30
    So you are saying if you are delt a hand like A9, A10 or J10 on the button or CO, and it is folded around to you, you are still folding? Those hands are just so tempting


    and how do you play in the blinds? is it still have one of the 19 hands, or else go into check fold mode?
  31. #31
    yea, check/fold
  32. #32
    I'm sure the question has been asked before, but what makes this opening strategy so unfeasible in MTTs and SnGs? I understand to a degree that the dynamics of the game shift a lot, but I'm not seeing what makes this strategy weak in those situations.

    Any illumination on the subject would be appreciated.
  33. #33
    not weak, but tourneys are so much more situational than ring. the 19 hands go out the window after the 3rd level in most sngs. open it up to say, 30 hands, more suited connectors and weaker aces. right, aok? tell me i'm right, i'm right, right? oh please god someone tell me i'm right.
    Unite and Annihilate!
  34. #34
    In a SnG or MTT 29 hands plus all suited connectors come into play. Position is Vital. Preflop betting and raising is VITAL.

    What are the 29 hands,you may ask... lol

    aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, 22, ak-a2, kq, kj, qj, and all suited connectors. that's 29

    Plus there are plenty of situations where the cards don't matter at all - especially late, shorthanded and in situations where you are playing super-tight idiots.

    Whoops, I'm sorry SB vs BB add Kt-K2, Qt-Q5, and TJs.

    And I'm not saying it's ill advised to play 19 hand in mtt or sng. I'm saying it's impossible. It's suicide. You can't win.

    relative stack sizes are also important in some instances.

    Read Harrington on Holdem Vol 1. That's cure what ailes you. Vol 2 is good also, but i think get's to balled up on stack sizes.


    With that said I've had great success playing HOH style and will post my HOH chart and MTT information on patience soon.

    So there you go.

    JUKE IS ..... RIGHT!
  35. #35

    Default poker fu, baby

    Originally, to practice kung fu did not just mean to practice Chinese martial arts. Instead, it referred to the process of one’s training - the strengthening of the body and the mind, the learning and the perfection of one’s skills - rather than to what was being trained. It refers to excellence achieved through long practice in any endeavor. — From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Okay, let me say more than a few words here about Performance Poker and its creator, Anthony Okrongly (aok). This is how I found out about his strategy: Back in August I had a very small bankroll ($50) and I felt like I really needed to use it wisely because I probably wouldn’t be able to redeposit any time soon. I was trying to become a better, profitable ONLINE player. I felt that there was a difference between playing poker online and playing live games although I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. I did realize that online games, especially the micro-limits at which I was playing, were much more loose and irrational than live play. So I wanted to find someone who was successful at ONLINE poker and who was willing to pretty much hold me by the hand and teach me. Especially since I was looking at my one last shot, at least for awhile.

    So I posted on the Flop Turn River forum that I was looking for a “badass poker mentor.” It was aok who responded. He sent me an email. What he said really got me excited.

    What times are you available to play or to watch me play? I normally [play] Wed and Thursday during the day and weekend nights plus some weeknights after 9.

    I am a serious poker trainer. I have a system you need to read and a method I follow – so even if you aren’t watching me play I can still help you by reviewing all you hand histories. Not only do I train you, I guarantee your results as long as you follow my system.
    “Guarantee my results”?! Well, hell, let’s do this! He had a little questionnaire he wanted me to answer that would give him a better idea of my poker background and experience. Then I went to his site and read the extensive introduction and explanation of the Performance Poker strategies. As I read a lot of bells started going off.

    The main, striking difference in his approach to teaching poker than anything else I’ve come across is this: aok understands that the losing poker player, especially the losing ONLINE poker player is, above all other things, undisciplined. There are some written exercises aok asks you to do if you are serious about changing your play and your poker habits. On the surface they seem silly, but I understood the psychology of them and, in the end, found them to be instrumental to me developing a new approach.

    At the time, I used to think that I played poker because I liked to win and because I wanted to win. But the reality was that I played poker because I liked the thrill, that pure adrenaline rush. I loved the way my heart jumped in my chest in the time between me clicking the ALL IN button and the deal of the river card. It wasn’t about winning. If it was about winning I would have quit a long time ago. I just told myself I wanted to win. As I learned from aok, winning poker can, at times, be pretty boring.

    He told me to get Skype, which I did, and we set a time to get together so he could show me what he does. He called me up on Skype and I watched him play for about 45 minutes. On every hand he explained what he was doing and why. Watching him play live, combined with the information on his site and the nifty Quick Start Sheet, I was ready to go.

    Very simply, his system worked. It is designed to minimize losses (and bad beats) and maximize profits. It is in it’s essence a tight aggressive style. I call it Poker Fu because on many occasions, in a round of play, you end up using your opponent’s aggression against him. Or, when the other player throws bets at you like punches, you just step out of the way. It’s the way of least resistance in that you don’t try to make people fold. In fact, an important part of the strategy is keeping other players in the hand and extending the betting when you have the best of it.

    The biggest struggle I had was sticking to the system. Often when I got away from strictly following the program, I lost money. But when I followed directions, I always ended my poker session with a profit. I still use this system when I play full ring games although I prefer 6 Max NL Hold’em (that’s the adrenaline junkie in me!). aok has written a piece on how to beat that game, too. This may sound obvious but I don’t think it really is… The single most important thing I learned from aok is how to fold my hand. And it is that idea that helps me stay profitable no matter what variation of poker I play.

    The bottom-line is this: Since l started using the Performance Poker principles about a month and a half ago, I’ve made withdrawals from my poker accounts for a total of around $140. That’s almost three times my starting bankroll. I’m still going and I haven’t had to make anymore out-of-pocket deposits.

    Originally posted on my blog, http://splashingthepot.wordpress.com...poker-fu-baby/
    "I don't get involved in what the cards do. I just try to make plays and put players on hands. But when the cards come a certain way, that's just the way they come." -- Hoyt Corkins
  36. #36
    Good luck playing this system at the higher levels.
    When you do get action watch out, cuz the better players will be playing monsters since they know you only play really strong hands.
    They will also be pushing you around, since you fold so much, stealing the blinds, and knocking you out of pots, etc.
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer
    Good luck playing this system at the higher levels.
    When you do get action watch out, cuz the better players will be playing monsters since they know you only play really strong hands.
    They will also be pushing you around, since you fold so much, stealing the blinds, and knocking you out of pots, etc.
    i dont want to start the debate again but the strategy is for beginners ...and beginners only ...after you've gotten enough hands under your belt you should adjust to a more positional advantage strat...
  38. #38
    Aok, you say you only play those 19 hands. how high are you personally playing (with the 19 hands that you said you only play). How high would you recommend that a n00b plays with this hand chart.

    I know this is an oversimplified list of hands to newbies but looks pretty horrible nonetheless.
    "Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
  39. #39
    why is QJ and KJ in the 19 hand range, they're really weak hands.

    what's the reason that they're in it?
    http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
    18 years old. short-handed $600NL.
  40. #40
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokerroomace
    why is QJ and KJ in the 19 hand range, they're really weak hands.

    what's the reason that they're in it?
    cuz they're prettier than other cards
  41. #41
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow
    Quote Originally Posted by pokerroomace
    why is QJ and KJ in the 19 hand range, they're really weak hands.

    what's the reason that they're in it?
    cuz they're prettier than other cards
    seriously, you can get into loads of trouble with QJ and KJ as a beginner. why fold AT if you're going to play QJ or KJ?
    http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
    18 years old. short-handed $600NL.
  43. #43
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    I think you'd be better off with Fnord's 13 starting hands, although dropping down to Phil's 10 starting hands is giving up too much value.
  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    I think you'd be better off with Fnord's 13 starting hands, although dropping down to Phil's 10 starting hands is giving up too much value.
    Are you recommending folding AK or 22?
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
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  45. #45
    Fnord's Avatar
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    AK, top pair is a sucker hand!
  46. #46
    AK, top pair is a sucker hand!
    QFT

    My n00b mind starts to think the same way. TPTK sucks in deep stack poker.


    22 plays better in >=100BB poker because it's big pot hand. Deep stack poker is NOT "all about TPTK", it's all about sets/boats and straights/flushes. And scary river bets.

    However in 30BB's donkaments I'd take AK, it's great small/medium pot hand and TPTK rocks in two/three effective streets of betting.

    Sklansky's NLHE T&P is great, btw. Isn't it, Fnord?
    "How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    I think you'd be better off with Fnord's 13 starting hands, although dropping down to Phil's 10 starting hands is giving up too much value.
    lol. Why is his book so rubbish? That was the first poker book i ever bought. I thought it would be about his tourney skillz, not some uber tight limit strategy.
  48. #48
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Check out my new book coming up in Feb. 2007: How to Beat 10nl for the Functionally Retarded.
  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow
    Check out my new book coming up in Feb. 2007: How to Beat 10nl for the Functionally Retarded.
    Flop sets, get paid?
  50. #50

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  51. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by aokrongly
    Quick update on 19 hand strategies. Well over 100 beginners have turned their games around in short order since I posted this. This has proven repeatedly to be a very effective and useable system for beginners.

    If you are going to play it or are playing it and have questions, feel free to post them.
    Well, since you invited. I've never liked the 19 hands, although I'll concede it's worked for people. But we've been there, done that to death. Time to move on. A couple of Qs though

    1. In my observation, since the legislation passed in November the games have gotten tougher. A lot of nit-style bookish TaGGs have hit breakeven stretches and downswings. I've seen the post on FTR. A lot of 'operation summer holidays' are way off track. Do you think games are tougher?

    2. How do you think the 19 hands hold up in this environment? Would you make any changes to it?

    3. Speaking for myself I hit a bad run since November and I've switched to playing PLO8 and tournaments with success. I haven't been able to play NL for a while now, but I want to go back to it. But I can't seem to motivate myself to play. I set myself up to play 4 hours or so but I can't get past 2 without losing a couple of buy ins and then I don't feel like playing any more. Do I just force myself to keep playing or what other mental strategies can u reccomend?

    I can only speak for myself, but it's good to have you back here posting.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  52. #52

    Default ...

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  53. #53
    first of all I'm at the very beginning of being a noob at hold'em. It's awesome to have a forum like this to look up the advice of players with skills. I'm trying out 19 hands at the moment, so far it looks pretty good, but I feel that even with what I feel is strong hands I get pushed out easily postflop. Someone will raise me a lot more than I feel is prudent calling, so I fold. I know this reaction is a definite way to start losing money, but it's just hard not playing more hands too. With the 19 hands and then getting pushed off when you hit one of those hands...just feels like I'm not in the game at all.
  54. #54
    So I'm still only on playmoney, sure someone will have something to say on that, but being a total noob and all, I figure I'd rather not waste my money here in the beginning where I'm completely blank. My playmoney thing has gone bust several times before, but then you get to start over. Today, playing on 3 tables concurrently I went from 1000 to about 10000 playmoney dollars...so so far at least, and at playmoney, the 19 hands system works for me.
  55. #55
    Welcome Soren. Yeah, get a little dough on a site soon and play microstakes. Play vs real money is night and day. Nevertheless, you are going about learning the game the right way - cautiously.
  56. #56
    Chopper's Avatar
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    soren, thats how i did it a couple years ago.

    i started in play cash games. learned to bully tables badly. learned the power of the "all in" push. built a huge stack, and got used to what they call "variance." i started getting seriously bad suckouts with people calling me with crap. i quickly learned...thats part of the game. better hands hold up...most of the time, but not always. and, YOU CANT FORCE SOMEONE TO FOLD.

    i moved to play tourneys because i saw some WPT stuff on tv and thought it looked cool and full of glory. then, i saw Moneymaker take down the world series with some "made for tv" bluffs. i was hooked, and thought i was a king.

    i deposited some money on pacific, $25, and worked it up to about $180 in a week. then, that damned variance hit. i cashed out $50 (so i could say i walked away a winner), and eventually lost the rest.

    i found FTR and read about bankroll management and bonus chasing. i decided to give it another go, and my brother transferred me $25 on stars.

    yadda, yadda, yadda, 18 months later i had about a $3000 bankroll. (by no means a meteoric rise)

    bottom line is: you are doing it the right way so far. do a lot of reading here and post your questions in the forums. you have another tremendous advantage...VIDEOS. i would watch them all here on FTR first. there are other subscription sites that are reasonable, once you have the bankroll. (a couple members here started Grinderschool.com for very low stakes players; i would look at them.) there is software, you will undoubtedly hear about while here...like PokerTraker. again, when the bankroll dictates.

    but, again, you are doing it the right way...slowly. hopefully, this is the beginning of a fulfilling hobby for you ...or a successful career, if thats your desire.

    whatever your desire, you have come to the best site, in my opinion. it has helped me and many others.

    welcome and take care.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  57. #57
    Warpe and Chopper, thanks for the words of advice, it's nice to know that I'm on the right track. So far it's all fun and games, and I hope that it stays that, but of course, I wouldn't be sad if I at some point could make some tidy money on the side of what I do now. I'll stay with 19 hands and read up as much as I can here on ftr. Thanks for the nice words
  58. #58
    Soren, from what you wrote about making 10x your bankroll in a week and losing it all, I have to assume you aren't using bankroll management. Read up on that before you put money in.
    Maybe read a few blogs, where people write about bonus chasing and just starting out with very little and make themselves into good 200nl+ players.
    Good luck starting out, hope it works out for you.
  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBull
    Soren, from what you wrote about making 10x your bankroll in a week and losing it all, I have to assume you aren't using bankroll management. Read up on that before you put money in.
    Maybe read a few blogs, where people write about bonus chasing and just starting out with very little and make themselves into good 200nl+ players.
    Good luck starting out, hope it works out for you.

    I didn't lose any money yet at all, not even the playmoney I'm using so far, so no problem. I haven't started using real money yet. But when I start using real money, I definately will be careful with my money.
  60. #60
    id say play as many hands as u want, but just never call preflop unless its 4 way or more!
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  61. #61
    Well, I'm relatively new to FTR, and I'd like to say thank you. I'll be trying your 19 starting hands strategy and see how I fair.

    So far so good! Thanks for writing this.

    Cheers!
  62. #62
    Hmm......what seems to be missing in the original post?

    AJ, KQ, QJ, call preflop if it's unraised. FOLD preflop if it's raised.
    No love for KJ?

    Big Lick
  63. #63
    I just started using the 19 hand strategy and so far it's working very well.

    My question is, when playing the 19 hands do you still take position into account when playing preflop, or do you just play the 19 hands from any position?

    Thanks.
  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenCJames
    I just started using the 19 hand strategy and so far it's working very well.

    My question is, when playing the 19 hands do you still take position into account when playing preflop, or do you just play the 19 hands from any position?

    Thanks.
    And there lies one of the problems with this "strategy".
  65. #65
    ...
    Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
  66. #66
    Chopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    Quote Originally Posted by StevenCJames
    I just started using the 19 hand strategy and so far it's working very well.

    My question is, when playing the 19 hands do you still take position into account when playing preflop, or do you just play the 19 hands from any position?

    Thanks.
    And there lies one of the problems with this "strategy".
    agreed, but you know that this is a beginner's strategy designed to get you off on the right foot while at ubermicro stakes, too. therefore, it isnt something that should be used for long.

    position is something that HAS to be learned to be a bigger winner. but, while learning a little of the very basics such as cbetting, acting first/last post flop, betting draws, etc, this 19hand chart tosses position out the window...because it only contains the super premiums.

    as you move into blind stealing, c/r'ing the cbettor, applying some ranges to your villain, etc, you will automatically move away from this, imo, and start adding more hands.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  67. #67
    I would suggest using this strategy until you finish reading all the beginner digest and start posting hands. Until you actually start your poker training I would use this as a jump off point. But I would start adjusting away probably after the first session and know why I am doing what I am doing.

    Read this, then Renton's guide and then Sauce's guide and then Renton's ABCD theorem and lastly all of ISF's articles.
  68. #68
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    I'm putting this theory to the test right now.

    Can't bring myself to play so tight in an MTT though, I like suited connectors too much.
  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tugger
    I'm putting this theory to the test right now.

    Can't bring myself to play so tight in an MTT though, I like suited connectors too much.
    this theory doesn't apply to MTT play
  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by daven
    Quote Originally Posted by tugger
    I'm putting this theory to the test right now.

    Can't bring myself to play so tight in an MTT though, I like suited connectors too much.
    this theory doesn't apply to MTT play
    Jolly good.

    Update... I was up a dollar in both rooms, but I've just been raped thanks to AK vs AA, so overall I'm down 50c in two rooms.

    However, I'm sure this theory will work long term.
  71. #71
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    theory still works. but, it has never proclaimed to be maximizing your profitability. its for beginners. those that learn the game as they go will soon drift away from these hands by adding others........correctly.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  72. #72
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    I'm surprised this crap hasn't been deleted already.
  73. #73
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    I hate cash rooms. Ended up losing $2 after aces got cracked by KQs.

    Screw this theory, screw cash rooms. I'm staying with the SNGs and MTTs.
  74. #74
    Looking at a chart of starting hands will help you some, but you need to know why the hands are good in the first place for you to make any progress. Think about these questions: why do you need a stronger hand in early position to open compared to being in late position? Why are connected and suited cards more profitable when there are a lot of people in the hand compared to two high cards? The answers to these questions are on the forums and in the guides, though not explicitly stated.

    Think about these questions.
  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillDeadMoney
    Looking at a chart of starting hands will help you some, but you need to know why the hands are good in the first place for you to make any progress. Think about these questions: why do you need a stronger hand in early position to open compared to being in late position? Why are connected and suited cards more profitable when there are a lot of people in the hand compared to two high cards? The answers to these questions are on the forums and in the guides, though not explicitly stated.

    Think about these questions.
    I understand these questions, and the answers. I have already abandoned this theory, and started limping and calling raises with suited connectors in late pos. Yesterday I took down my biggest pot with 42s against TT... he flopped a set, I flopped a gutshot, and he bet 4 cents into a raised mulitway way, something like a 40c pot. I hit my straight on the turn, got into a raising war with him, and took down the rest of his stack. He was not happy, but at least he recognised his poor flop bet. We then got into an argument about whether or not 42s is suited connectors. I told him I didn't care what he calls suited connectors, I'm interested in any hand that can flop a straight flush, that's what I call suited connectors. Ok, if the hand can only flop a gutshot, and not an open ender, then I'll probably muck it, with the exception of suited aces. I don't normally call gutshots, it's only if I'm priced in, and that's rare. In fact, the 4c bet priced me out, until I consider implied odds.

    This theory is fine if you want to earn a dollar every two hours, and provided your aces don't get cracked.

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