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  1. #76
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quick Bankroll guide

    Quote Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
    Matther Hilger in his Internet Texas Hold "Em book recommends the following for a bankroll guidline:

    0.50-1.00 $500

    1.00-2.00 $800

    2.00-4.00 $1200

    That should be enough to keep you going for now.
    For limit or NL?

    It's accurate for limit.

    -'rilla
  2. #77
    I've talked to a number of people and have even read some articles about BR management. 95% of most people say 500BB regardless of game -- NL or Limit...so for .50 tables, you need 250...

    When I tell them about 15 max buyins (needing 750 to play .25/.50), they just look at me like I'm crazy...and this is from guys that are pretty good players...

    I think gorilla's advice is definitely good advice... but it may be a tad too conservative.

    Just my $0.02...
  3. #78
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisqo
    I've talked to a number of people and have even read some articles about BR management. 95% of most people say 500BB regardless of game -- NL or Limit...so for .50 tables, you need 250...

    When I tell them about 15 max buyins (needing 750 to play .25/.50), they just look at me like I'm crazy...and this is from guys that are pretty good players...

    I think gorilla's advice is definitely good advice... but it may be a tad too conservative.

    Just my $0.02...
    Your friends are wrong. And you can show them why. Play 50 nl on 250 bucks. I may slide 4 buyins in an hour on a really bad day. 500 BB is awesome overkill for limit as well.

    The buyin number increases as stakes increases as well. 3/6 is no longer the 20 buyin rule. It should be 30. And probably 30 from there up.

    There is no way on god's green earth you could continue to increase stakes with only 5 buyins to your name and never go bust.

    -'rilla
  4. #79
    Ya know what big man -- I'm gonna prove it to myself that you're right...I think you definitely have a good point, even though I'm skeptical...

    But I'm gonna try it bro...
  5. #80
    Legendash's Avatar
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    You're actually going to try a 5 buyin bankroll and move up every time you're at 5 buyins for the next level?

    Good luck! (you're going to need it, forever!)
    "[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."

    Copyright, Youngdro 2007.
  6. #81
    No. I said I was going to prove to myself that he's right, so thus, I'm going to try 15-20 buyins per level.
    Operation Cashtastic: $2450
    Starting BR: $475
    Current progress: $588
  7. #82
    I'm playing 25NL at the moment with a $1600 bankroll, I always play 4 tables at the same time, so is 40xBuy-in a good amount to move to the next level or is that a little to conservative? Im not one of those poeple who goes all in with AK after hitting king on flop, but if I feel I have any kind of edge I will push.
    Tom.S
  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentedTom
    I'm playing 25NL at the moment with a $1600 bankroll, I always play 4 tables at the same time, so is 40xBuy-in a good amount to move to the next level or is that a little to conservative? Im not one of those poeple who goes all in with AK after hitting king on flop, but if I feel I have any kind of edge I will push.
    I 4-tabled 25 NL once upon a time and moved up when my BR hit 500$. Thats obviously a bit early, but I would say 1000$ (20 buy-ins) is good for that level. Your defintely ready to move up to .25/.50 NL imo.
    BR now: $106900
    Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
    Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
  9. #84
    you don't really need to increase the buy-in amounts if you multi-table, as every hand is mutually exclusive.. you simply play more hands.
    Experimenting - 200NL 5max.

    "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
  10. #85
    From What I understand they are saying, You would need at least $600 to play 25NL.

    so more like $1,200 for the 50NL tables.

    Trust me too bro this is legit advice. I just dropped almost $300 at the 25NL tables in 1 and 1/2 days..

    I didn't tilt horribly either, Bad runs just happen, so don't move up too quick or you will be under bank rolled trust me..
    Currently Playing 8 Tables of 25NL 10-Max.
    Or
    2 Tables of 100NL 10-Max

    Current Bankroll: $625

    Goal: To stop pulling $$$ out of my bankroll and build it up to 1k.
  11. #86
    Crap I wish I'd read this earlier. I built my meager BR up to $800 on a massive good run on the 100NL table (.50/1). Then I lost $600 of that in 4 days.

    Now, reading this, I don't even have a decent enough BR for 25NL...
  12. #87
    Ok so you keep a 30 buy in roll to play at certain stakes. Then you "go on a bad run" and lose 7, you are no longer bankrolled for that level so you move down and try to rebuild? Also 7-10 buyins downswings are NOT downswings. If you lose that many buyins at a certain level (especially in 2-3 days like some said) you really need to rethink your game, you probably lack the skill to play at that level.
    I personally play at 200 NL, cashing out my profits every 2 weeks and leaving 6-7 buy-ins as a "bankroll". Some times just before I cashout when my "bankroll" (I mean the money in the site cause cashouts go in the bank) is at its highest, I play a little 400 NL too. If I want to move up to 400 permanently I will not cash out one time and leave sth like 3K at the site.

    There's a diffirence in the BR you need to start at a level and the BR you need to play at "your level". I CANT lose 10 buy-ins at 200 NL unless I play drunk or sth. Aces or rilla CANT lose 10 buy-ins at their respective levels. When I started (with 32 bucks from a freeroll) I followed STRICT BR management rules. I played $3 sngs and then $10 NL, then 25 NL when I had $500 and so on. At 200 NL I decided to stop moving up and see what money I can average there. Had I never cashed out I would have a BR of about $10.000 at the site. But hey I like they money I've won in my hands not a number on the screen that I cant touch cause its my "bankroll" .

    b cool all.
  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by m3laNcholy
    Ok so you keep a 30 buy in roll to play at certain stakes. Then you "go on a bad run" and lose 7, you are no longer bankrolled for that level so you move down and try to rebuild? Also 7-10 buyins downswings are NOT downswings. If you lose that many buyins at a certain level (especially in 2-3 days like some said) you really need to rethink your game, you probably lack the skill to play at that level.
    I personally play at 200 NL, cashing out my profits every 2 weeks and leaving 6-7 buy-ins as a "bankroll". Some times just before I cashout when my "bankroll" (I mean the money in the site cause cashouts go in the bank) is at its highest, I play a little 400 NL too. If I want to move up to 400 permanently I will not cash out one time and leave sth like 3K at the site.

    There's a diffirence in the BR you need to start at a level and the BR you need to play at "your level". I CANT lose 10 buy-ins at 200 NL unless I play drunk or sth. Aces or rilla CANT lose 10 buy-ins at their respective levels. When I started (with 32 bucks from a freeroll) I followed STRICT BR management rules. I played $3 sngs and then $10 NL, then 25 NL when I had $500 and so on. At 200 NL I decided to stop moving up and see what money I can average there. Had I never cashed out I would have a BR of about $10.000 at the site. But hey I like they money I've won in my hands not a number on the screen that I cant touch cause its my "bankroll" .

    b cool all.
    It is true that if you are solidly beating the game you are playing in, you will not experience a 7 buy-in downswing. But you almost never are soldidly beating the game you are playing in. You might be getting nice cards and think you are, when really you arent. If the money goes in the bank, and you still have access to it and dont spend it, then it counts as part of your bankroll. When it becomes spent, its no longer part of your bankroll.

    So having a 7-buy-in 'roll might work if you have more money "in the reserves" in your bank account. But make sure that money is available. I would also advise against trying 400 NL unless you have considerably more money (at least 5k of at-the-site money), having played there a while now, its a hard game to "solidly" beat unless you are HARINGHOLL.

    Something else to consider is that different playing styles require different sizes of bankrolls. If you sit and camp, basically nut-peddle, and rarely bluff, you are taking very few risks and dont need that large of a 'roll (think aokrongly's playing style here). However at higher levels (400+ NL) that doesnt get you very far, and you need to bluff a lot more, as well as call down bluffs a lot more. Both of these require a lot of guts and a lot of money in your bankroll so that you arent afraid of going broke just because you made one bad decision.
    BR now: $106900
    Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
    Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by spino1i
    It is true that if you are solidly beating the game you are playing in, you will not experience a 7 buy-in downswing. But you almost never are soldidly beating the game you are playing in. You might be getting nice cards and think you are, when really you arent.
    That why you have to stop moving up at some point and figure out whats going on. You dont wanna reach a level where you can beat the game anymore. The reason I stoped at $200 NL is that the money there has become "meaningfull to me". Dont get me wrong, I like the game of poker but I wouldnt play it if it wasnt for the money. Yesterday was just the 4th "payday" (2 weeks inbetween the cashouts so thats only 2 months) and I definetely cant say "I average $xxxx per 2 weeks. But I think I can assume that after 4 cashouts of 2-2.5K / 2 weeks, its not luck. I might average less (or more) in the long run but I dont think that I'll find out that I am a losing player there...
    Quote Originally Posted by spino1i
    So having a 7-buy-in 'roll might work if you have more money "in the reserves" in your bank account. But make sure that money is available.
    Although I'd hate it when it happens I know that at some point I WILL bust that 5-6 roll at the beginning of the 2 week (just after I cashout) and I'll have to redeposit. But I like to keep a small amount of $$ at the site for several other reasons.
    When you have 15k or sth and play 200 or 400 NL its "easier" to lose a buy-in. Lets say you make a bad call/push and lose a buy-in. 15.347 is now 15.147, doesnt make much diffirence. You can easily disregard the hand on a basis of "variance" "had to call" "bad beat" etc. whereas in reality you played the hand wrong. When I lose a buy-in on a single hand, I @#% well make sure I KNOW why I lost. The fact that $200 seemingly affects my "BR" makes me play better. I wont play scared cause I only have 6 buyins available (I got 25 more in the bank...) (some times I will try to control variance more though)
    Quote Originally Posted by spino1i
    I would also advise against trying 400 NL unless you have considerably more money (at least 5k of at-the-site money), having played there a while now, its a hard game to "solidly" beat unless you are HARINGHOLL.
    heh I only play a little 400 NL shorthanded just bofore I cashout. Lets say 2 days before "payday" I have 4k in the account. I can risk 1k playing 400 at that point and if I lose that all, still make a solid withdrawal. And I always select and observe the table for a while to see how I am gonna aproach it...
    Quote Originally Posted by spino1i
    Something else to consider is that different playing styles require different sizes of bankrolls. If you sit and camp, basically nut-peddle, and rarely bluff, you are taking very few risks and dont need that large of a 'roll (think aokrongly's playing style here). However at higher levels (400+ NL) that doesnt get you very far, and you need to bluff a lot more, as well as call down bluffs a lot more. Both of these require a lot of guts and a lot of money in your bankroll so that you arent afraid of going broke just because you made one bad decision.
    ...
    dealt to m3lancholy: 5h6h

    m3lancholy calls $4
    SB calls $2
    BB raises $20
    m3lancholy calls $20
    SB calls $20

    dealing flop (5c 3c 2d)

    SB checks
    BB checks
    m3lancholy bets $30
    SB calls $30
    BB calls $30

    dealing turn (5c 3c 2d) (Jd)

    SB bets $30
    BB folds
    m3lancholy calls $30

    dealing river (5c 3c 2d) (Jd) (Kh)

    SB bet $42
    m3lancholy : busted draw?
    m3lancholy calls $42

    SHOWDOWN:

    SB shows 6d7d (high card King)
    m3lancholy shows 5h6h (a pair of Fives)

    m3lancholy wins the pot of $291 with a pair of fives

    ($3 rake were taken for this hand)

    That could have gone the other way of course but I know what you mean... :P
  15. #90
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    300BB = 300 big bets or big blinds in limit?
  16. #91
    spino1i's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iopq
    300BB = 300 big bets or big blinds in limit?
    big bets.
    BR now: $106900
    Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
    Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
  17. #92
    Guest
    thanks
    I think someone should invent a new term for big bets so it won't confused with big blind

    something like LBs - Large Bets
  18. #93

    Default Re: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
    Well, we had some new visitors in the chat room today and they all had a few questions about bankroll managment. So I lined 'em up and knocked 'em down. Soupie asked me to post about bankroll managment so here it is! Now my numbers may be a bit on the high-ish side, but I always like to play it safe when we're talking about poker.

    Alot of new players make the mistake of depositing 50 bucks on Party Poker and taking their shot at greatness. This is one of the most fundemental mistakes for new players and I will explain why.

    To understand why Bankroll Managment is so important, you have to understand how you should approach the game of poker.

    Poker is a long term game, it is not AA v KK getting cracked on the river. It is a game of thousands of iterations of these hands. Throughout the carreer of a poker player, you will see aces more than your fare share and though you will lose with them from time to time, you will win a lot more. Everytime you play aces properly, it is a positive investment even though you may lose money on any given occurence. It's not a game of, "Mah gaht dahm aces got cracked a-gaht-damn-gain! Gah!"

    Poker is a horrible short term game, you can be ontop of the world one day and drowning in the depths of the river valley the next. It's a game of swings. You WILL lose at some point, it's a statistical certainty. It is the undefinable "luck" that people are so quick to blame. So you need to make sure you have enough money in your online bank so that the loses don't phase you. You need a fat enough roll to never go bust becuase of a bad streak and to help prevent tilt. For me (I play 100-200NL cash games on Empire) 100 bucks just isn't what it used to be from a poker perspective. Some days, I start out real slow and lose 2 buyins, but I don't tilt becuase the money and results don't get in the way towards playing great poker. My bankroll is too solid to be phased by a bad week, therefore my play is not phased by a bad week.

    You can find the accurate numbers for a proper bankroll all over this great forum of ours. But I like 15-30 buyins for No Limit (Maybe even more for 6max), 300BB for limit and 15+ buyins for tournies (More for MTTs). If you play a little from column A (limit) and a little from columb B (Tournies or NL) a good rule of thumb for your bankroll size is never risk more than 5-10% of it on any given day.

    The numbers might be a little off here or there but the idea is: If you're never risking much of your bankroll from day to day, you allow yourself to play your game risk-free. Losing money won't drive you to suicide *cough* And your back should never be against the wall.

    Poker is a game of positive longterm investments, you want to make sure that you have enough money to stick around and reap the rewards of these investments.

    -'rilla
    I think the word you were looking for is "career."
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  19. #94
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Why. Do. You. Hate. Me?

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  20. #95
    I apologize rilla. It was just a sudden twitch of my sciatic asshole nerve. Its all gravy baby?
    He who drinks beer sleeps well.
    He who sleeps well cannot sin.
    He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
  21. #96
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    I will resist the urge to smite you.

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  22. #97
    Quick question: From what i understood, it's okay to 2-table 0.5/1$ limit with 300BB, yes?
    Is 300BB the absolute minimum? I'm okay playing with less than the 300BB on the party beginner tables, however soon i'll start school and have much less time to play, so i wanna 2-table to make up for that, but i'm a bit scared of doing it with say, 250BB... is it a (big) risk?
  23. #98
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    OK, but I think if you're going to have to choose between being under-rolled for SNGs or for limit or for no-limit go for the limit. Being stuck with 150BB is better than having 9 buy-ins for the SNGs by far. In poker room I only have 50 bucks, that's why that's a choice for me due to the high low stakes.
  24. #99
    I gotta say that the BR advice offered in this thread has been very useful and effective.

    About ten days ago, I deposited $50 at Ultimate Bet.

    I started out at the $2 tables and made a couple of bucks but I hated the all-in maniacs who just didn't care if they won or lost. So I decided to move up.

    Before I did, I did something really stupid. I played a $20 SNG and a $5 SNG, and lost both of them, putting my BR down to $31.

    Since then, I've been playing the $10 tables (.10 BB) and I have built my BR up to $144 in these 9 or 10 days (I know that doing that was going outside of the BR management advice offered, but the action at the $2 was so ridiculous that it wasn't even fun, and I think that it actually makes your game worse by playing those).

    My high point was $147, then I went on a down swing, and dropped to $114, but last night I went on a rush, and got it back up to $144.

    I would like to move up in stakes, but I'm following the advice given here, and will not be moving up to the $25 tables until I hit about $300 or so.

    That way if I take a swing like I just did recently, then it won't really affect me or damage the BR.

    Thoughts?
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  25. #100
    I have been playing SnGs on VCPoker for quite a while now - started at the $0.50+$0.05 tables and have worked my way up to the $5+$0.50 tables. I move up when i feel comfortable doing so, but as a general rule i am looking at moving up when i hit 20 buyins for the next level (which would be $120 for the $5 games, but i was on a good run at the $3 games so stayed there a short while longer and got to $150 first). I have always said if i experience a downswing of more than 10 buyins then i would move back down to the previous level. So far this has not happened, though i was close to it at one point, and probably would have moved down had i not won $15 in a freeroll tournament while on that downswing.

    I would say though that during my only real major downswing, i was making a fair few mistakes as i became increasingly desperate to get off my downswing, i guess i was tilting a bit really after i lost a couple where i felt i was unlucky.

    Anyway, bearing this in mind, i would say that if you are a solid player then you should be able to play SnGs with 10 buyins and never go bankrupt, though beginners should probably allow 20 to be safe, because a couple of mistakes and tilt and a bad run of cards could put you down quite a lot of buyins.
  26. #101
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Well, a good player at micro stakes could live with 10 buyins becuase he would simply dominate the rest of the field which leads to low variance. As you increase the stakes, you run into more and more better opponents and therefore have to pad the bankroll to stave off risk of ruin.

    -'rilla
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  27. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
    Well, a good player at micro stakes could live with 10 buyins becuase he would simply dominate the rest of the field which leads to low variance. As you increase the stakes, you run into more and more better opponents and therefore have to pad the bankroll to stave off risk of ruin.

    -'rilla
    The risk of ruin is a bit higher, but more important are the consequences of ruin imo.
  28. #103
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    I have to add that turbo SNGs and pokerroom SNGs that are not turbos (that go as fast as turbos at the other sites ) require AT LEAST 30 buy-ins because EVERY SINGLE DAY YOU PLAY you'll be up or down 5 buy-ins
    it's just that you can play 15 SNGs a day with such fast blind structures just single-tabling
  29. #104
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  30. #105
    it just takes time for a player to get that kind of confidence ripp, you're totally right though.

    there are players who could turn 1k into 10k in a month or less, but it might take a weaker player a YEAR or more to do so, due to confidence, experience, stakes they play, and skill levels.

    My advice to anyone who is going to gamble it up, make sure the game is GOOD. Do not sit down with 8 other sharks thinking you're gonna get an easy $500 double up, because it's just not gonna happen.
    take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
  31. #106
    spino1i's Avatar
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    Im sorry but playing with 3 buy-ins at 600 NL is just a really really bad idea. You will play scared, theres no easy way around it, and you have a huge risk of going flat broke. The players there are tough so dont think itll be cake-walk doubling up. Know you can beat the 600 NL game before you go and try this with even 6 buy-ins. Of course beating the 200 NL game doesnt count; I can beat the 200 NL game on Party but have difficutly to this day beating the 600 NL, its just that much harder. Plus 600 NL and higher isnt really about grinding anymore, its about bluffing and making moves.
    BR now: $106900
    Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
    Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
  32. #107
    Hello!

    I'm new to this forum, but here goes anyway.

    I'd say that as long as your bankroll doesn't matter then you could play with just the amount needed to buy in at all. Ok, the fun probably won't last for very long

    Let's say it's 6pm and I'm deciding wether to go down the pub or stay home and play some games, then I could happily create a bankroll of $30 (going to the pub and spending the evening there WILL set me back $50, but I'd like to shop snacks, some fast food and a sixpack so I'm setting $20 aside for that).
    The $30 in this case is probably less a bankroll than the cost for the evening, and if I want to have fun for a prolonged time I should probably play $2 MTT and .05/.10 tables.

    What it boils down to, I guess, is that when the money involved is money that hurts, then bankroll management becomes an issue.
    For consumption, avoid spending money you need and NEVER spend money you don't have.

    Sten
  33. #108
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    That's fine if you only ever what to play recreationally.

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  34. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
    That's fine if you only ever what to play recreationally.

    -'rilla
    Agreed, but I'd say it's also fine for us learning fish

    I can't learn to play good poker as long as I'm afraid of going bust (provided, of course, I'm able to learn how to play good poker at all).

    Being heavily involved in a TCG (Trading Card Game), I'm aware of the time needed to become a "winning" player, ie one that at least is distinctly above average capacity. It's enough when self-esteem is involved in the learning cost, but adding fear of economy would be disastrous.

    I think one valid question is what investment is needed to even start thinking about bankrolling.

    I, for example, happen to enjoy MTT. There's a cost involved in learning how to become good enough to reliably end up ITM.
    So I spend a pub-night at home instead, and the money "lost" is an investment rather than a loss. I can go to bed frowning at my mistakes, which is bad enough, but I don't add that awful feeling about the money gone (and believe me, I've been there and done that after black-jack sessions I should never have been involved in when I was younger).

    As this is a beginner's area I guess experienced players communicate with really, really green ones.
    What bankroll is needed for winning $100+ 20 days a month on a yearly basis? That, I believe, is the question a lot of people want answered, because that answer is key to the prospect of becoming a small league pro. However, the correct answer (if there is any) probably doesn't include the cost for being able to play profitable no matter the bankroll, which is the basic reason for my post.

    I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone.

    Sten
  35. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yappo
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
    That's fine if you only ever what to play recreationally.

    -'rilla
    Agreed, but I'd say it's also fine for us learning fish

    I can't learn to play good poker as long as I'm afraid of going bust (provided, of course, I'm able to learn how to play good poker at all).

    Being heavily involved in a TCG (Trading Card Game), I'm aware of the time needed to become a "winning" player, ie one that at least is distinctly above average capacity. It's enough when self-esteem is involved in the learning cost, but adding fear of economy would be disastrous.

    I think one valid question is what investment is needed to even start thinking about bankrolling.

    I, for example, happen to enjoy MTT. There's a cost involved in learning how to become good enough to reliably end up ITM.
    So I spend a pub-night at home instead, and the money "lost" is an investment rather than a loss. I can go to bed frowning at my mistakes, which is bad enough, but I don't add that awful feeling about the money gone (and believe me, I've been there and done that after black-jack sessions I should never have been involved in when I was younger).

    As this is a beginner's area I guess experienced players communicate with really, really green ones.
    What bankroll is needed for winning $100+ 20 days a month on a yearly basis? That, I believe, is the question a lot of people want answered, because that answer is key to the prospect of becoming a small league pro. However, the correct answer (if there is any) probably doesn't include the cost for being able to play profitable no matter the bankroll, which is the basic reason for my post.

    I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone.

    Sten
    It all depends on how good you are and how much you want to play. I make 200$+ a day playing hardly at all at 1/2 NL. I play maybe 2-3 hours a day at most, anymore I get bored. But it takes a long time to get to the point where you are that good that you can turn a 30+BB/hour profit at 1/2 NL, so I would say probably your decent 1/2 NL player makes 100$ a day maybe less and would have to play for about 4 hours a day.
    BR now: $106900
    Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
    Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
  36. #111
    If I play Limit games and I have $300, I can play .50/$1 according to the accepted standard of 300 big bets. When should you try $1/$2? Wait until you have $600? Try it as long as you have over $300? What if I have $400 Could I or rather should I try $1/$2 and if my roll dropped back to $300 then you drop back down. A major issue I have always had is when should you try the next level?
  37. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by StarlightCoast
    If I play Limit games and I have $300, I can play .50/$1 according to the accepted standard of 300 big bets. When should you try $1/$2? Wait until you have $600? Try it as long as you have over $300? What if I have $400 Could I or rather should I try $1/$2 and if my roll dropped back to $300 then you drop back down. A major issue I have always had is when should you try the next level?
    Go for 1/2 when you have at least 600. Move back down to .50/1 when you get down to 300.
    Operation Cashtastic: $2450
    Starting BR: $475
    Current progress: $588
  38. #113

    Default Bankroll?

    Hello,
    Been playing poker for a few years and have played mostly NL tournaments and $4/$8 limit.
    My question is about how much money to bring to NL cash tables (live play). Tables like $1/$2 NL up to $5/$10 NL?
  39. #114
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    I just thought id add a little something on here.
    If you play non holdem games for example omaha hi/08, draw, 5 stud, 7 stud but at limit not pot or no limit is the bankroll management the same as other limit based games? eg. 300bbs.
    Just wondering for future reference.
  40. #115
    DoGGz Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    I just thought id add a little something on here.
    If you play non holdem games for example omaha hi/08, draw, 5 stud, 7 stud but at limit not pot or no limit is the bankroll management the same as other limit based games? eg. 300bbs.
    Just wondering for future reference.
    Split pot LIMIT games, you need less. If your playing at not winning half the pot you are a bad player anyway. 7 stud hi and omaha hi, I'd play with around 500bbs, because of the variance in those games. Draw I have no idea.

    PL Omaha or omaha/8 you need a hell of a roll.
  41. #116
    I read somewhere you need less of a roll to play PLO/8, because the swings are worse because of the halving of the pot.
  42. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by mrO/8
    2. There is much less variance than in most other poker games. To be fully bankrolled in O8 requires only about 20-40% of the funds for an equivalent Hold'em Game.
    http://www.o8poker.com/
  43. #118
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    I guess you could go pretty easy on the BR demands for draw. It's pretty low variance and only 2 betting rounds
  44. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by astrodon
    Poker is not a lot different from trading futures or options and there are plenty of excellent books giving good money management rules that would be pertinent to poker as well.

    Poker is gambling but it should be in the context of taking risks with skill or becomming highly skilled risk takers. You will not be around very long if you are under capitalized. 90+% of all new small businesses fails in the first two years for this reason alone.

    Another very important aspect is dollar cost averaging your bank roll. IE how much of a SET AMOUNT am I putting into the fund from outside sources on a PRESET DAY EACH MONTH ? After all, you should be looking at this like an investment. It IS going to cost you to learn and you WILL experience recessions. Sometimes you will be making a deposit on hot streaks; sometimes on cold ones; sometimes on dead even. But overall you should be meeting your previously defined expectation of return or finding out why not.

    In futures trading if you EVER are down more than 50% of your bank roll, you STOP playing altogether until you can define the problem, make the necessary adjustments, THEN AND ONLY THEN continue to play; if need be wait until your outside infusions of money catch you back up.

    First and foremost is to have a WELL DEFINED set of rules BEFORE you begin play and NEVER, EVER, FOR ANY REASON break them. History is repleat with the carcasses of many a risk taker that chose to either not have rules or break their rules and to their ultimate, inevitable and certain demise.

    This post is very scary and hostile, but so freakin true. Do you do option's trading? If so I need to pick your brain!
  45. #120
    Just a noob question about micro @ Pokerstars. I just want to get my feet wet and play some $0.01/0.02 tables instead of doing well at play money and seemingly wasting my time. The max-buy in is 5$ so 50$ would be 10 max buy-ins. Enough? I know it's less than the 15-buy-in policy.

    I know 'rilla talked about $50 being a waste of time (worded differently), but I'm more about improving than making a dash for the big money (I know mirco won't teach me much, but I'll be studying up in the meantime). Bank account is broke-student status so saving 300$ to start at higher stakes might not happen.

    Moving up according is of course a consideration, but I just want opinons on starting off.

    I know this was covered b4, but I should definately come in $5 max buy-in each game eh.

    Thanks in advance,

    Johnny K
  46. #121
    You could put in $50 and only buy in for $2. Stars $5NL has 0.01/0.02 blinds so its like a very deep stacked version of $2NL.

    Alot of the players there only buy in for $2 so you wont be losing much if you start off like that, and that gives you 30 buyins. Once you build it up a bit you can start buying in full .

    I started off (once I decided to get serious) buying in for $3 on the $5 stars tables. Most people buy in for much less (tends to be the good players that buy in full) so you should be fine.
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

    bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
  47. #122
    LimpinAintEZ's Avatar
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    so when talking about bankroll sizes - I see everyone on here multitables (as do I, but 2-3 is all i can keep up on at 6 max NL right now) - So when your talking about 15-30 buy ins (most seem to agree that 20 is a good number here on FTR), is that for EACH table your playing? That seems like a LOT of money to have, even at $25NL if your 4 tabling...Should we just stick to the 5-10% rule for multitabling?
    this space intentionally left blank
  48. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
    so when talking about bankroll sizes - I see everyone on here multitables (as do I, but 2-3 is all i can keep up on at 6 max NL right now) - So when your talking about 15-30 buy ins (most seem to agree that 20 is a good number here on FTR), is that for EACH table your playing? That seems like a LOT of money to have, even at $25NL if your 4 tabling...Should we just stick to the 5-10% rule for multitabling?
    some people will tell you that the number of tables you play doesnt change the BR you need. Some will tell you the number of tables you play slightly affects the BR you need. Noone will tell you you need 20 buyins per table.
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

    bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
  49. #124
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    20 buyins period case closed. No matter the number of tables.

    The number of tables you play shouldn't be a function of your bankroll. It should be a function of your ability to multitable. I used to play 4 tables. I just begun playing 8 tables, and after a few 1000 hands of it, my stats haven't changed a lick. You're play shouldn't suffer due to the number of tables. The only thing you lack are physical reads on the players, the most important of which you can collect mechanically via Pokertracker and PokerAce hud.
  50. #125
    I'm new to poker, but I realise that bankroll management is important.

    I was just wondering if you .... don't know the english word for it ,
    you can do it in excel (application that comes with MS office), and it keeps track of what you earn and what expenses you have etc.. If so, what kind of information do you keep track of?
  51. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerfantomet
    I'm new to poker, but I realise that bankroll management is important.

    I was just wondering if you .... don't know the english word for it ,
    you can do it in excel (application that comes with MS office), and it keeps track of what you earn and what expenses you have etc.. If so, what kind of information do you keep track of?
    hello neighbour, do you mean "spreadsheet"? anyway most of us use PokerTracker, it records every hand you play (good for cash games). for tournies spreadsheets could be better.
    >3

    this is my favourite part of the post
    it looks like angry boobs
  52. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by sandstorm
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerfantomet
    I'm new to poker, but I realise that bankroll management is important.

    I was just wondering if you .... don't know the english word for it ,
    you can do it in excel (application that comes with MS office), and it keeps track of what you earn and what expenses you have etc.. If so, what kind of information do you keep track of?
    hello neighbour, do you mean "spreadsheet"? anyway most of us use PokerTracker, it records every hand you play (good for cash games). for tournies spreadsheets could be better.
    Yeah.. I was thinking of spreadsheets, but pokertracker seems to be perfect. I'll probably get hold of it. Thanks for the tip
  53. #128
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
    I kinda feel that it does not matter what hand I have or how I play it. The end result is always the same, I lose the hand if the pot is big.

    I lost 3 all ins with AA and won 0. I flopped a set 4 times, won 2 small pots, lost an all in to a flopped straight from the blinds and one with set of kings to a river flush.

    I had QQ twice against KK on a board with no overcards.

    I won a grand total of one big pot!

    Its about patience.

    AA is a good starting hand, but remember that it takes 5 cards to form a hand.

    I'd limp in, then if my position improves, come out firing on the flop. Pay to play. Pay to play.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  54. #129
    Now that's a quality bump
  55. #130
    bode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bidip
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
    I kinda feel that it does not matter what hand I have or how I play it. The end result is always the same, I lose the hand if the pot is big.

    I lost 3 all ins with AA and won 0. I flopped a set 4 times, won 2 small pots, lost an all in to a flopped straight from the blinds and one with set of kings to a river flush.

    I had QQ twice against KK on a board with no overcards.

    I won a grand total of one big pot!

    Its about patience.

    AA is a good starting hand, but remember that it takes 5 cards to form a hand.

    I'd limp in, then if my position improves, come out firing on the flop. Pay to play. Pay to play.
    lol, do a search for cocco_bill
    eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
  56. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  57. #132
    that's what I was thinking, guy just corrected Coco_bill, lolocorrectaballerments.

    I have a question, you get dealt AA UTG and you limp? Then you get up and move to the button seat??
  58. #133
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    limp in and when nobody looks you gotta snitch the button. that´s the secret.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  59. #134
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
    I kinda feel that it does not matter what hand I have or how I play it. The end result is always the same, I lose the hand if the pot is big.

    I lost 3 all ins with AA and won 0. I flopped a set 4 times, won 2 small pots, lost an all in to a flopped straight from the blinds and one with set of kings to a river flush.

    I had QQ twice against KK on a board with no overcards.

    I won a grand total of one big pot!

    Its about patience.

    AA is a good starting hand, but remember that it takes 5 cards to form a hand.

    I'd limp in, then if my position improves, come out firing on the flop. Pay to play. Pay to play.

    LOL, that was my first post here on FTR


    I was such a fucking n00b. YTF limp w/ AA utg? Position improves? WTF am I talking about?

    Amazing how a few months can totally change you for the better/ worse



    "AA is a good starting hand..." WTF? was I high?
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  60. #135
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    You were lecturing Cocco_Bill, that's the best bit
  61. #136
    lol awesome jack
    Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
  62. #137
    Great stuff.

    Thanks for all the imput.

    JamesMH
  63. #138
    Great stuff.

    Thanks for all the input.

    JamesMH
  64. #139

    Default 20 times the buy in

    Does 20 times the buy in mean 20 times the max buy in????

    If i'm playing .02/.05 the max buy in is $10.
    Does this mean i need $200 to play these tables???
  65. #140
    20 x 100BB buy in. If you are only rolled for $5NL your roll is $100+, that would put 10% of your roll on one table if you buy in with 200BB's, and that's never good. If your going to buy in higher, you still need 20x and if your short stacking I would go with 40x. If your rolled to buy in 20x at 200BB's I would just move up. There is way more value in the next stake at 100BB's compared to the smaller blinds.
  66. #141

    Default BR

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow
    Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

    When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
    When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
    When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
    When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
    When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
    When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

    If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.
    I'm posting this here so noobs don't have the same problem i did figuring it out.
  67. #142
    Chopper's Avatar
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    wow, spoon, i completely disagree. not with the calculations to br management, but with starting out with $40 and grinding.

    what if a doctor wants to be a poker pro? or some dude inherits money?

    i understand he may suck, but why not start with $200 at 10NL, if you can afford to? or start at 25NL with $500, if you can?

    why not start off as high as you can, and move down accordingly due to bankroll guidelines until you find the level you can beat?

    its the "Led Zepplin" concept. Led Zepplin went to Atlantic records while still an undiscovered band back in the day. people thought they were nuts for starting with the best record label in existence, at the time. but, when Jimmy and Robert got asked why they were that gutsy, they got a great response...

    why not start as high as you can and work your way down? that way you dont waste time in starting off too low. have confidence in yourself and your abilities, and let the industry tell you your not. dont ever tell that to yourself before you even try.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  68. #143
    So you would have a 4 year old start out with no training wheels, then let the bike decide how many he needs? Or maybe start driving Transport trucks and just downsize when you crash, until you end up with a pair of Nikes? IT isn't jsut about winning money, it's about foundation, learning why, and ingraining habits. When your getting stomped at $25NL because you have no clue, $500 is nothing, and may not make it to 10K hands. Watching chips slide across the table does nothing for the learning curve.
  69. #144

    Default Zeppelin

    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    its the "Led Zepplin" concept. Led Zepplin went to Atlantic records while still an undiscovered band back in the day.
    I see what u mean.
    However, Zeppelin was actually still using the name "the Yardbirds" when they started out. So they had a bit of a rep allready thanks to GOD himself (Eric Clapton), and another guy named Jeff Beck.

    They may not have been as readily accepted to Atlantic if it weren't for this.
    Although they had extreme talent and would have made it big regardless.

    Long live the Blues..

    Also Spoon doesn't even know i put this here. I just did it because i thought it would be usefull to new people like myself that had a hard time figuring it out.
  70. #145
    sihaust Guest
    So having a 7-buy-in 'roll might work if you have more money "in the reserves" in your bank account. But make sure that money is available. I would also advise against trying 400 NL unless you have considerably more money (at least 5k of at-the-site money), having played there a while now, its a hard game to "solidly" beat unless you are HARINGHOLL.
    wow... really
  71. #146
    While we already bumped this one, I would like to add that "15+ buy ins" for SNGs is not enough by far imo. Cant speak for regular speed SNGs though, as I dont play them. But I have a avg. ROI of 10% and even when grinding the $6.50s I had 20 BI downswings and 500 game break even stretches. So for turbos I want at least 30 BIs (for lower BIs. moved up to the $16s at 50 BIs). Dunno if you can really get away with half of that at regular speeds.
  72. #147
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    great thread, me!
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  73. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    wow, spoon, i completely disagree. not with the calculations to br management, but with starting out with $40 and grinding.

    what if a doctor wants to be a poker pro? or some dude inherits money?

    i understand he may suck, but why not start with $200 at 10NL, if you can afford to? or start at 25NL with $500, if you can?

    why not start off as high as you can, and move down accordingly due to bankroll guidelines until you find the level you can beat?

    its the "Led Zepplin" concept. Led Zepplin went to Atlantic records while still an undiscovered band back in the day. people thought they were nuts for starting with the best record label in existence, at the time. but, when Jimmy and Robert got asked why they were that gutsy, they got a great response...

    why not start as high as you can and work your way down? that way you dont waste time in starting off too low. have confidence in yourself and your abilities, and let the industry tell you your not. dont ever tell that to yourself before you even try.
    Responding to the bold:
    • Driving through the limits as a beginner, it will take equal or less time to become a decent winner at a 3-digit stakes than if you start at that level and "work your way down"
    • Going through the limits forces you to cultivate patience and discipline, especially regarding how they handle money, something neither of the people in this description probably have
    • Starting off at money values that probably don't mean much for them "in real life" will force them to view the money as chips and an aspect of the game instead of having their monetary value
    • It's much easier to learn basics against bad competition than good competition
    • Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to lose a lot of money before you become a winning player
  74. #149
    Thanks for the suggestions, for limit I usually buyin for 50BB & although, I see a lot of pple go in w/ 30BB.
  75. #150
    I generally play at levels that I have 30 to 50 buy-ins at I play bankroll management big time I like to be able to take a hit and keep on ticking just like I did in football built my body to a hilt so when that 250 pound linebacker comes to hit you as a running back you want to be in thde best shape you can be to take the hits and keep carrying the ball to move your team toward victory.

    Poker is the same way if your bankroll isn't big enough to take hits and pound forward and go to higher levels then your not building it the right way or you need to learn the fundamentals all over again to becoime a force in the poker world I'm with soupie when he says you need to specialize as an on-line poker player becuase there are way to many types of games you can play out there and by switching from one variation to the next your not going to be playing at optimal levels of play at least for the first few blind orbits which will take away from your profits. So,I recommend the same thing soupie does be a specialist .

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