Critiquing the "Pros", discussion thread on WSOP 2

[surviva316]

maybe this is the worst idea and will be insta-locked, and maybe it's not even in the right forum, but i thought it might be fun to post some hands you see in the tourney coverage that make you go "wtf?"

i did a little bit of this when i was watching reruns and i generated a little bit info that got me thinking on a bit of a different level. espn is truly a scam and is horrific at showing hands from beginning to end, giving useful commentary, and in providing CRUCIAL information like stack sizes and position, but if you feel like pickin' on the pros feel free to post incomplete HH's that provide the best info available.

if you insist on picking on obv poker tards like tiffany michele and the likes, then go ahead, but i'd rather pick on the people that ESPN insist are genius pro's but make head-scratching play after head-scratching play (like dennis philips).

much love!

[surviva316]

i'll start it off:

15000/30,000 blinds

Ted Forrest is SB w 195,000

7 folds to Ted Forrest who completes, pokernoob (BB) raises to put him all in, Ted Forrest calls for his last 135,000.

pokernoob questions why Ted Forrest didn't just shove and Ted Forrest says "well you woulda called anyway. this way i coulda just bet you off any flop."

sounds good enough, except any hand he would want to shove off of the flop is shoving over his complete anyway. any hand he would want to fold (Q2, etc), his best spot to do it was preflop.

thoughts?

[settecba]

stopngo??????

[Nakamura]

I assuming this is tournament play, but we would need to know pokernoob's stack size as well in order to figure out if the move is any good.

IMO, stop 'n go's are only good if you know with absolute certainty that your opp is going to call your AI bet PF, otherwise you should just get it AI PF. He seems a little deep to 'know' 100% that his opp will call unless there are antes or something and his opp would be getting 2:1 on an AI flop bet.

[surviva316]

ted forrest only has 6.5bb's. villain easily has him covered. i was kinda kidding about the pokernoob nickname. this is from the 40k BI tourney, and it didn't seem nearly as laden with mediocre poker players as most episodes of the WSOP, so i'm assuming villain knows he's should be shoving very wide here.

i should think a stop n go is really only effective when we're closing out the action

i did notice later in the broadcast, the commentators said that ted forrest is known for making a lot of unconventional plays

[settecba]

I know shit about tournament play...so my comment was just a thought...the move looked like a failed StopNGo with something like QJ. Youre right surviva about the closing the action.

[drmcboy]

'pokernoob' made a WPT final table as well.

It's iffy, Ted may be able to fold out some Qx/Kx hands on the flop but he also may allow 27 to make a pair. I think he is hoping the odd limp in play in enough to scare off the BB from shoving marginals

[d0zer]

This whole thread is an exercise in futility. You're basically trying to analyze hands in a vacuum without seeing the gameflow/metagame established up to that point. You rarely have any idea what level they're thinking on which is key in analyzing plays that may seem weird/non-standard/spewy.

[Jack Sawyer]

This whole thread is an exercise in futility.

Agreed, top position in the "useless threads" by a mile. They are pro's afterall, so there must be something they were doing right at some point.

Oh, and RasZi was at the FT of the 40K too, didn't know that

[Erpel]

I didn't want to be the first to dis the thread, but now that the expected vitriol is out in the open I'll say my bit also.

Poker is all about context and taking hands from televised poker is very hard to do and retain context. If you feel you must use televised poker as a source of something to discuss I'd suggest using a show like HSP instead of WSOP. At least it's a cash game format.

I think the idea has some merit - take some hands played by competent players and go through it with beginner logic and see if we can arrive at the conclusions reached by the better players. However, if that's the idea I think by far the best way to go about it is to look at the SHNL or FRNL forums, find a hand that has a good amount of discussion in it and which you think you could maybe think your way through playing the same way - and then repost it in the BC wth your complete analysis.

The challenge there is to build an analytical foundation and strategy for the situation described and see if you can correctly identify the reasons behind the actions taken by the player or suggested by the discussion in the thread on the higher level forum.

I was actually considering doing exactly that with this hand:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...re-t87713.html

Or rather, I started but it got too long.

[surviva316]

I think the idea has some merit - take some hands played by competent players and go through it with beginner logic and see if we can arrive at the conclusions reached by the better players. However, if that's the idea I think by far the best way to go about it is to look at the SHNL or FRNL forums, find a hand that has a good amount of discussion in it and which you think you could maybe think your way through playing the same way - and then repost it in the BC wth your complete analysis.

you didn't have to wait for someone else to bash it because i was already fairly certain that someone would. this is a ballin' idea, though. hands played against fish at 1,000NL are just as profitable to be played the same way at the micros (although, there are a lot of threads that start out "villain is 22/18/2.5 fish" but there are obv fishier examples).

if the SHNL, FRNL and HSNL players wouldn't mind us reposting there hands, i might start doing this every once in a while

[Erpel]

if the SHNL, FRNL and HSNL players wouldn't mind us reposting there hands, i might start doing this every once in a while

If we were to take our beginner analysis to the high stakes forum that might be a bit unwelcome, but as long as we keep the beginner analysis on the beginners forum with a copy of the hand in question as originally posted (and probably also linked) I can't see how they could mind.