Deathmatch: SB vs. BB

In this corner we have...
A problem with the SB & BB matchup.

What kind of change do you make to your game when facing this situation? do you complete the SB with a wider range of hands or does this range decrease? What about raising hands from the BB? Does this range change?

I have lost many large pots when I don't believe my opponent when they bet into my middle pair. Is this a simple case of raising his bet for more information?

Thanks.

I'm more interested in what my opponent is doing in these spots.

For the most part, I'm just looking to spash around a bit and pick up a small pot. If the other guy likes to play big pots and put me to the test, I'm less inclined to pick a fight without a strong hand.

I continue to play my normal range of hands for the SB. The hard part in this situation is that if the big blind checks you have no information about his hand and you are out of position post flop. In the big blind you could loosen up a little and raise with a lot of different hands because you have position. Most of the time it really is a battle of who wants to most aggressive with terrible cards, so knowing your opponent is key.

Originally Posted by Lodogg

The hard part in this situation is that if the big blind checks you have no information about his hand and you are out of position post flop.

Open completing the SB followed by a BB check is good information. We both have 2 cards that are probably less than premium, lets play some poker.

BTW, I love playing blind vs blind against under-betters who tip hands.

Originally Posted by Fnord

BTW, I love playing blind vs blind against under-betters who tip hands.

You mean people who underbet with a good hand?

Or people who overbet with a good hand and underbet with a crap hand?

Or both?

Originally Posted by Pelion

You mean people who underbet with a good hand?

Or people who overbet with a good hand and underbet with a crap hand?

Or both?

...and more. Good information from bet sizes and the ability to draw or showdown a marginal hand at a reasonable price more often than not. My limit experience gives me a pretty big edge playing small ball as I have a good feel for marginal hands.

I fold unless I have a really good hand. You have no idea what they have, they have position, and there is no pot to win. As an added bonus the next hand starts after you fold.

If the player to your left is a multi-tabling nit, then you're throwing away free money by not raising...

How often do you find one person who refuses to fold the BB to a SB pre-flop raise... I find it many people are stubborn in doing that, only to insta-fold on the flop

Originally Posted by bencathers

How often do you find one person who refuses to fold the BB to a SB pre-flop raise... I find it many people are stubborn in doing that, only to insta-fold on the flop

In that case you're throwing away money if you're not raising and c-betting.

Originally Posted by Fnord

If the player to your left is a multi-tabling nit, then you're throwing away free money by not raising...

Maybe if I were playing the Bellagio $4k/$8k game. But I'll "throw away" my $1. I used to raise in that spot alot until I realized that I can't push them off a pot because they don't believe I have shit ever (which is good when I actually have a hand, bad when I'm raising junk). In my opinion, it's just a waste of time with such insignificant blinds.

Originally Posted by bencathers

How often do you find one person who refuses to fold the BB to a SB pre-flop raise... I find it many people are stubborn in doing that, only to insta-fold on the flop

I wish I came across it more often.

Originally Posted by Checkways

Maybe if I were playing the Bellagio $4k/$8k game. But I'll "throw away" my $1. I used to raise in that spot alot until I realized that I can't push them off a pot because they don't believe I have shit ever (which is good when I actually have a hand, bad when I'm raising junk). In my opinion, it's just a waste of time with such insignificant blinds.

You're way under-estimating the value an extra $1.5 here and there has on your win rate. Also, you can make the insta-profit raise then play it really passive post-flop.

Originally Posted by Fnord

You're way under-estimating the value an extra $1.5 here and there has on your win rate. Also, you can make the insta-profit raise then play it really passive post-flop.

Yes that's probably true.

But maybe we play in different environs or maybe confirmation bias only allows me to remember losing stupid amounts of money trying to get the A-hole in the BB to fold his middle pair to my bluffs. But this is what it seems like to me:

Raise small, they call. Because they have money invested already.

Raise big, they fold most of the time until they either get sick of your shit and reraise you or wake up with a monster hand. So essentially they have to fold enough times vs the one time they call and take the pot from you to make this profitable by 1 BB.

So let's say you get a call. Play passively? They steal it from you because they have position. Play aggressively, throw away chips because you have no clue what they have, and they don't believe you have shit.

That's just the way it seemed to be for me. Maybe I just hate myself too much for losing money in that spot when the rewards were so small to even continue trying it.

So your up against a player on your immediate left who can use position against you, detect weakness in your betting and will play any 2 back at you.
1)Dont steal his blind
2)Move seats

If someone won't lay down 2nd pair, limp with anything and bet TPNK till the river.

For staight out steals,you need multitabler rocks. They don't care who raised or how many times, if they have junk, they fold. Conveniant as these are the players who you don't mind giving up position.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by bencathers

How often do you find one person who refuses to fold the BB to a SB pre-flop raise... I find it many people are stubborn in doing that, only to insta-fold on the flop

In that case you're throwing away money if you're not raising and c-betting.

Or what about the person who refuses to fold to the c-bet if they hit ANY piece of it. Do you decide to give up on the turn or go for the last one (if on a non drawing hand / ace high blind steal)

Figure out what they're doing and expoit it! Stop camping, stop folding so darn much when exploitable players enter the pot.

Assuming full ring, if blind wars is such a big deal. The table cant be good, so what are you doing at a bad table?

That being said, it's all about reads imo. What kind of player are we talking about? Without a read, its very hard to play hu.

As fnord said, "Figure out what they're doing and expoit it!". Its realy that simple.

Isn't the idea to find a table with bad players?

If you find yourself in SB vs BB battles at a full table often, you're defenetly at the wrong table. Move to a looser table.

If it's happening a lot at 6 max, then figure out if you're better then the player to your left and exploit him, or move if you can't figure him out.

Truthfully, I tend to play the player more in these situations then my cards. Against an unknown, my very very VERY general guideline is something like this: I will play any ace, any king, any queen with a reasonable kicker, any pair, and most suited connectors. I sometimes call, usually raise to 4-5xBB. From there I usually bet strong and end the hand early before my positional disadvantage really hurts. No reason to lose a stack without a big hand though...