A Dying Dream

I have come to the realisation that the reason I've never been good at strategy games is because I'm completely illogical, lacking in patience and, quite probably, mentally handicapped (of late, I have often thought that I am suffering from some kind of functional autism).

Poker is proving this beyond a doubt. I actually like the game. I have studied it, am studying it, I am addicted to it, but I cannot beat $25NL. I always hated chess and never really like Risk, so at least with poker, I can say that I've honestly being trying to improve.

I have changed my style, the style that won me over $300 at the $10 NL tables, due to the overwhelming advice from here that I needed to be more aggressive and looser. Stats are posted below. What they won't show are the $100 swings that are happening with regular frequency now. I win loads of little pots, then lose big time. I work like a beaver for 400 hands to win 8 bucks and some dipshit sits down for 40 hands and walks off with 60. It gets to me.

Post more hands someone will say? I think the problem is not not knowing how to play, it's just a matter of not being able to control my mind/emotions WHEN I'm playing. There is something about $25 NL which is flummoxing me.

I'm not quite going to give up yet, and I probably never will, due to the enjoyment I sometimes get from the game, and the addictive nature of my personality, but I certainly will be dropping down for a while. I've got about $440 bucks now. Two days ago I had $550. I am thinking to play $100 worth of Sit n' Go's, but I'm slightly afraid to, in all honesty.

Anyhow, some stats.

$25 NL BEFORE Change:

Hands: 1,542
VPIP: 12.78
W$WSF: 21.82%
BB/100: - 7.52
Went to SD: 22.91%
W$SD: 50.79%
PF Raise: 2.92%

$10 NL BEFORE Change:
Hands: 25,791
VPIP: 14.15
W$WSF: 22.09%
BB/100: +5.7
Went to SD: 19.10%
W$SD: 59.17%
PF Raise: 2.89%

$25 NL AFTER Change:

Hands: 4,530
VPIP: 18.52
W$WSF: 26.29%
BB/100: - 3.82
Went to SD: 17.56
W$SD: 58.96%
PF Raise: 5.08%

$10NL After Change:

Hands: 6,121
VPIP: 20.21
W$WSF: 25.02%
BB/100: +6.35
Went to SD: 17.85
W$SD: 52.21%
PF Raise: 4.66

Does this tell anyone anything that may be of use in improving my game? I'm thinking that I may need some sort of drug to negate my emotions more than anything, though.

tighten up

raise more, call less.

If you play 14 percent of hands at 25nl full ring, and raise at least half of em, you will win money.

Your W$WSF jumped out at me. Mine is 35.52 over 10K hands at 50NL and 100NL, and I'm not happy with it.

So what does that mean? Won money when saw flop. To me, it says take a close look at your post-flop game. Make sure you know which spots to be aggressive and which spots you should let go.

Phil Gordon's Little Green Book has some good info on post flop. Sklansky's Small Stakes Hold 'Em has some really good chapters on assessing the strength of your hand after the flop. SSHE is geared toward limit, but I keep going back to those sections. I believe HOH1 has some chapters on post flop too.

A dream never dies man. As cheesey as it sounds don't give up!

I understand the whole lacking patience to sit and learn, as I went through pretty much the same thing. I even get antsy now if I play more than 3 hours at a time.. and have to at least take a break for a while.

It sounds to me like you don't need to quit, you need a break. Take a break for as long as you need... a week, 2 weeks.. however long it takes for you to recover from this. I'm taking the next 5-6 months off.. not just for the reason of taking a break from poker, (there are personal reasons as well), but I know it will help me. Just as it is when working out, after a couple months of stress to yourself and your body, taking a week off is necessary. Poker is more of a mind game than many people think, and if you rest your mind, you can clear some things up.

As looking at your stats, Renton pretty much said it. I only played ~10,000 hands at 25nl and my stats were 16/7.. Not necessarily "ideal" by any means, but you really do need to raise more. I know at 25nl not a whole lot of people (if any) at your table will notice how much you raise, or how much you bet.. but by calling vs raising you're becoming passive rather than agressive. You need to learn when to be aggressive in this game.

What about your agression factor? Position stats? You don't want to be passive and check/calling post flop. A call can definitely be the right play, but most of the time raise/fold are better options. Also with position stats, the closer you get to the button, the higher your pf raise should rise. Position is so huge in this game, and a lot of people really don't respect it enough. Give me KQ utg and I won't like to play it, but give me KQ on the button and I would be more inclined to play a mediocre hand in position.

Well fwiw, I'm not even close to the best person that can give you advice on this board. I'm not saying the way I play is the best or anything like that, but basically I want you to know that you shouldn't give up. Keep on going man. There are many, many people... even on this board... that started at 25nl and became very wealthy. It isn't necessarily about the wealth to me, it is more about doing something that I love to obtain this money. In hopefully no more than 6 months once I get my business going, I will start playing part/full time and see where it takes me.

Don't let dreams die!

Thanks to the three of you. All useful, encouraging responses.

I am a graduate of the AOK 19 starting hand strategy, which served me well at $2 and $10. A return to that level of tightness?

Also, I am raising more. It shows in my stats. I was extremely passive 7,000 hands ago. Now I am aggressive. I actually have Little Green Book, Corbere, and that is what helped to make me more aggressive and a bit looser.

Also, Corbere, I am not sure I get you. Are you saying that my W$WSF percentage should be a lot higher?

14% of hands is even less than I played at 19 starting hands, by the way Renton. That sounds like nut harvesting. I'm confused. One camp here claims that that's not the way to play, and then I get from Renton and Corbere that it is the way to go. I think what's happening is that I'm caught twixt the two styles.

It is obvious that my post-flop play sucks. I know. But if I would back down on every board that looks slightly co-ordinated, I might as well not play at all. I don't see how I can always give up my top two pair, or my set or my flush because there is the slight possibility of a better hand out there. Nonetheless, the few times when I do not give up, I get killed. And it seems that everyone BUT me wins major pots with top pair, or sets.

OK, I've my Little Green Book right beside me. I'll study up on the post-flop sections and see what I have missed.

One thing more. Should I give $25 NL one more shot with my current roll (around 440, I think), or should I back down to $10 until I'm at $500 again? That'd be the 5th time back down. What a loser.

How many tables do you play at once?

17 buyins is more than enough for 25nl... no need to back down just yet.

ya know Jiggus, how much are you paying attention when you play, I mean really paying attention. I was at a table of yours for over 75 hands the other day and you didn't notice. What else are ya doing when at the tables. At 10NL yu can cook dinner and watch TV but at 25NL it requires a little more attentivness. You may need to make sone changes to your game but not drastic ones. Say hi next time.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

I have come to the realisation that the reason I've never been good at strategy games is because I'm completely illogical, lacking in patience and, quite probably, mentally handicapped (of late, I have often thought that I am suffering from some kind of functional autism).

Looks like you just came to the conclusion that you are human.

Four when I can. I play at Paradise and that's the most allowed.

However, I'm thinking to drop down to only three tables until I find my feet.

That said, though, if I'm playing 14% of my hands, I think I'll need to keep playing 4 tables or I'll fall asleep.

14% sounds like only about 12 hands are ever played by the way. With 19 hands I averaged 18% of flops.

Oh, one other thing, I am VERY position-conscious.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

14% of hands is even less than I played at 19 starting hands, by the way Renton. That sounds like nut harvesting. I'm confused. One camp here claims that that's not the way to play, and then I get from Renton and Corbere that it is the way to go.

14/7 is far looser and more aggressive than 19 hand. 19 hand is something like 12/3 if I calculate correctly.

And I am not suggesting that you do it because its the best strategy, but because it is the best strategy for a novice/intermediate player.

You say you've become more agressive, but I was looking through this thread and at your NL10 AFTER stats, and you're like 20/4. That isn't agressive at all. It's very passive, actually.

This is very good advice:

tighten up

raise more, call less.

If you play 14 percent of hands at 25nl full ring, and raise at least half of em, you will win money.

I'll add to that this: Don't spew post-flop. And the kind of spew I'm talking about is stuff like don't get stacked with TPGK, don't try desperation all-in bluffs against calling stations, etc.

Basically, you should absolutely be raising more then you are limping preflop. This isn't about style, or someone saying this in a book that is speaking out of theory that doesn't apply, it's just the optimal way to play NLHE. There are some obvious exceptions, but the saying of 'if it's good enough to play, it's good enough to raise' USUALLY applies. And it's usually better to raise.

Also, include your agression factor with stats, it's far more important then some of the others that you went through the trouble of posting.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

ya know Jiggus, how much are you paying attention when you play, I mean really paying attention. I was at a table of yours for over 75 hands the other day and you didn't notice. What else are ya doing when at the tables. At 10NL yu can cook dinner and watch TV but at 25NL it requires a little more attentivness. You may need to make sone changes to your game but not drastic ones. Say hi next time.

Mate, I can't say "Hi". My chat privileges have been revoked a long, long time ago at Paradise. I notice loads. I normally play early morning, in the dead quiet. I only play. Nothing else.

Besides, I leave that chat thing switched off, since it is only distracting.

I thought it was common knowledge to most here that I am unable to converse with anyone at Paradise. I'm not being rude, I just can't. You're actually lucky that I can't chat. I can say some truly outrageous things!

set camp on those dise tables.
Just play AQ/AK/AJ in position and KQ in position. Raise the blinds when limped to in lp with KJ/QJ perhaps too.
Dont be afraid to fold if you dont like the board.

Im strugg;ing to see why you cant beat these tables easily as they are are very fishy and basically you dont play big pots without a nice tp hand against a fish or a set vs a pfr.
fwiw,when i played on dise i only ever called raises with pps to stack the players who couldnt get away from tp at those tables.

I think we probably need to see a session worth of hands to know where you wold appear to be going wrong.
Add to that your sample size is too small imo, ive been running 60bbs/100 over a similar sample and i KNOW its only positive variance that will tale off soon enough.

20/4, 12/7?

I'm not to be understanding this, my good sir.

I've just come back from 200 hands and I believe that this is more like what you and Renton would be advising:

Saw 14% of the flops and won 41% when seeing the flop. Made back 20 bucks, too.

Thing is, though, Sunday afternoons are easy days to play. I always do well on Sundays, 'cause people actually fold to my raises. During the week, I play against people who call me down with weird-ass shit.

I have been spewing, as you so deftly put it, Lukie. Winning loads of little pots and then going and losing it all and more on an ace-high flush that got beat by a full house. But I understand what you mean. I have to go back to folding more.

I'm excited about this, for some reason. Going back to super tight play suits me.

I meant, that I had gotten more aggressive in RELATIVE terms. For me, I'm more aggressive.

My aggression factor over 56,000 hands at $2, $10 and $25 NL is 1.70.

Since June 02, 2006, over 16,141 hands is 2.33.

Where are my manners?

Thanks to you all for replying in such a positive and constructive manner.

I always think that I'm going to get roasted 'cause I'm such a lummox at this game, and have been here for so long and hardly gone anywhere, but it almost never happens, and when it does, it's usually needed.

Miffed, 60BB/100? Wow.

I think it's emotional control that is most affecting my game. However, a tight-ass system will help me control that, I believe.

next time i see you at the dise tables, i'm going to make fun of you

damn it!
he turned the chat off

good luck
flomo

Originally Posted by Jiggus

20/4, 12/7?

I'm not to be understanding this, my good sir.

14/7 = 14% voluntarily put money in pot (VP$IP), 7% raise preflop

14/7/4 = same as above + 4 in aggression factor.