Extremely frustrated

I want to get input from everyone on this hand. The villian is 21/7/.07 over 75 hands. My table image is fairly TAG running like 15/10.

My question here is mostly about putting villian on a range. I seem to run into this type of scenario alot

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

SB ($21.73)
BB ($8.53)
UTG ($11.14)
Hero (UTG+1) ($12.12)
MP1 ($20)
MP2 ($13.09)
CO ($24.51)
Button ($16.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K, K
UTG calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.65) 8, 2, 8 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.10, MP2 raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $11.62 (All-In), MP2 calls $8.62

Turn: ($24.89) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($24.89) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $24.89 | Rake: $1.65

Results below:
Hero had K, K (two pair, Kings and eights).
MP2 had 7, 8 (full house, eights over sevens).
Outcome: MP2 won $23.24

This type of situationI seem to run into quite a bit and it is making me question my play. I have a hard time understanding villians play here. I expect villian here to have a flush draw or a smaller overpair alot, if he has quads I take my beat and move on.
All insight is appreciated.

--Z

Each villain is different in each situation. So you can't generalize in this spot. This is why knowing someone's raising/betting frequencies is extremely important. On the flop I can see anything from 3betting, calling or even folding to his raise. It's just player dependent. Judging by his stats he seems to call more than most so we can include a lot of draws in his range preflop but also a ton of 8's. With his aggression, shouldn't it be safe to put him on an 8/full house more than a draw? You need a lot better reads but that's a start.

As kmind said, you should always look for extra reads to help in spots like this.

This villain is clearly very passive, and calls with a lot of hands pre-flop. In position I'd expect a lot of pocket pairs, broadways, Ax and some suited connectors. No idea what his 3bet range is, but I'd guess its pretty small, so there's probably not much you can discount other than AA, KK.

Post-flop, this guy is super-passive. He raises like never, so here there's a huge chance he has 22, 88, A8, 87, 98. Thats a very small portion of his preflop calling range, I know, but his flop action really narrows it down. Unless you have some sort of read that he would do this with a 2 or overcards, you're often not good here.

If you have enough hands on villain to know he's super passive and only comes alive with hands better than your over-pair, folding isn't a bad idea. 3betting the flop and folding to a 4bet works too. One thing I've learned (and learned the hard way) is that at <25nl they almost always have it (unless you have super reads or villain is a aggro fish). Don't think they're playing back at you, they aren't.

he has .07 aggression factor?

as in he made 100 calls and only 7 raises?
holy shit fold flop

Originally Posted by iopq

he has .07 aggression factor?

as in he made 100 calls and only 7 raises?
holy shit fold flop

Good god, thank you, I've wondered what that last number meant for a while. Let me just get it confirmed, 21/7/.07 means 21 hands, 7 calls, 7% raised, yes?

I'm inclined to agree, theoretically it's a fold, based on his stats, but then I'd probably call because kings are fookin difficult to fold here, especially at low stakes where TT will go mental on this flop against a TAG. He might have nines or tens and put you on AK.

Tough spot. I'd call, but I'd applaud a fold.

The crux of the problem is you have to figure out the range of hands that he will stack off with versus your perceived range or actual hand. If this player WOULD stack off over a buy-in with 99-AA and a flush draw, then this may be a good play. However, most villains with half a clue, will not stack off over a buy-in on one street on that board unless they have hands that beat you: any 8, pocket 2's, and maybe pocket aces. When you raise all-in, in most cases, you're saying, "Hey, fold all hands that I beat and call me with all hands that beat me." That is the exact OPPOSITE of what you should actually want.

Originally Posted by tugger

Originally Posted by iopq

he has .07 aggression factor?

as in he made 100 calls and only 7 raises?
holy shit fold flop

Good god, thank you, I've wondered what that last number meant for a while. Let me just get it confirmed, 21/7/.07 means 21 hands, 7 calls, 7% raised, yes?

In my opinion it means VPIP 21% (The amount of hands he plays, relative.), PFR 7, 7 Agression on flop, turn and river. Don't see these stats as exact numbers!

Take a look at this guide:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12644539/Poker-Tracker-Guide

Originally Posted by Jason

"Hey, fold all hands that I beat and call me with all hands that beat me."

Thanks for the input guys. I was definately pressing here.

Big PP in these types of situations seem to be a pretty big leak for me. It is something I will try to evaluate better.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Ztech

Thanks for the input guys. I was definately pressing here.

Big PP in these types of situations seem to be a pretty big leak for me. It is something I will try to evaluate better.

Thanks.

so you really found someone with AF of .07? answer plox

Thank you Qminator.

Originally Posted by Qminator

Originally Posted by tugger

Originally Posted by iopq

he has .07 aggression factor?

as in he made 100 calls and only 7 raises?
holy shit fold flop

Good god, thank you, I've wondered what that last number meant for a while. Let me just get it confirmed, 21/7/.07 means 21 hands, 7 calls, 7% raised, yes?

In my opinion it means VPIP 21% (The amount of hands he plays, relative.), PFR 7, 7 Agression on flop, turn and river. Don't see these stats as exact numbers!

Take a look at this guide:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12644539/Poker-Tracker-Guide

Um, no. That would be 21/7/7. This is 21/7/.07, which is super-duper nitty post-flop and means we fold here.

(sorry, double post)

Originally Posted by tugger

Originally Posted by iopq

he has .07 aggression factor?

as in he made 100 calls and only 7 raises?
holy shit fold flop

Good god, thank you, I've wondered what that last number meant for a while. Let me just get it confirmed, 21/7/.07 means 21 hands, 7 calls, 7% raised, yes?

I'm inclined to agree, theoretically it's a fold, based on his stats, but then I'd probably call because kings are fookin difficult to fold here, especially at low stakes where TT will go mental on this flop against a TAG. He might have nines or tens and put you on AK.

Tough spot. I'd call, but I'd applaud a fold.

You're burning money. There are a few hands that beat KK here, and he will show up with one of them pretty much every time.

look, you guys are all making this way too complicated.

based on PF stats and his AF number, villain is extremely passive, and you need to take advantage of the fact that he never bluffs and calls too wide by widening your value betting range and making your calling range when he actually wakes up with something razor thin. villain raised your flop bet to 1/3 of his stack which is a really f'ing play for a passive fish to take.

put him on a range (one that includes zero, and i mean ZEROOOOOOOO draws/air type hands) and see how you're doing against that range. (he has 99/TT at best like 40% of the time that he takes this line, btw)

surviva even if we put him on a range with draws and include the top of his range we're like crushed anyway

Board: 8d 8h 2h

Hand 0: 31.592% { KdKh }
Hand 1: 68.408% { KK+, 22, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, QhJh, QhTh, Qh9h, JhTh, Jh9h, Th9h, 98s, 87s, 98o, 87o }

you can't put 7h3h or anything trashy like that in his range because he's 21/7 not 100/7
notice that even if like half of his range is flush draws our equity sucks fat dick

well thank you, iopq, for shitting on my idea to have the BCers actually think about what's going on here and what hands villain can actually have and learning for themselves how easy of a fold this SHOULD be.

Originally Posted by Ztech

The villian is 21/7/.07 over 75 hands.

I suck at reading HUDs and HUD stats, but isn't this particular guy raising on this board very indicative of an 8x+? I mean, point-oh-seven in aggression?

EZ fold everytime in this spot vs. this guy.

Originally Posted by surviva316

well thank you, iopq, for shitting on my idea to have the BCers actually think about what's going on here and what hands villain can actually have and learning for themselves how easy of a fold this SHOULD be.

Hey, some of us learn by reading posts like iopq's. I haven't got a nice little programme to tell me how our hand matches up against that range, and my maths isn't that good. I see kings when I look at my cards, and I put him on 99+, flush draw, 22 or 8x, and due to the raise, 8x seems least likely. Of course, if I were sat at this table, I would have a better idea of what sort of player I'm up against, and will adjust accordingly. But, forgetting the numbers which, before this thread, meant little to me, I'm assuming kings are probably good here.

Now, I have more infromation than what I had when I first looked at this thread. Kings don't seem as good against this sort of player, so yes, to those who realise this, it's a much easier fold.

And, dare I ask, what's a BCer?

BCer = Beginning Circle player. Also, Iopq is using pokerstove for those odds and that's a free program that anyone can download and use.

Originally Posted by tugger

Originally Posted by surviva316

well thank you, iopq, for shitting on my idea to have the BCers actually think about what's going on here and what hands villain can actually have and learning for themselves how easy of a fold this SHOULD be.

Hey, some of us learn by reading posts like iopq's. I haven't got a nice little programme to tell me how our hand matches up against that range, and my maths isn't that good. I see kings when I look at my cards, and I put him on 99+, flush draw, 22 or 8x, and due to the raise, 8x seems least likely. Of course, if I were sat at this table, I would have a better idea of what sort of player I'm up against, and will adjust accordingly. But, forgetting the numbers which, before this thread, meant little to me, I'm assuming kings are probably good here.

Now, I have more infromation than what I had when I first looked at this thread. Kings don't seem as good against this sort of player, so yes, to those who realise this, it's a much easier fold.

And, dare I ask, what's a BCer?

Someone who posts in the BC (Beginners Circle).

Originally Posted by TonyB73

Someone who posts in the BC (Beginners Circle).

Oh that's not so bad. That's almost endearing.

Originally Posted by tugger

I haven't got a nice little programme to tell me how our hand matches up against that range

http://www.pokerstove.com/

Thank you iopq