Folding 2 pair to a Monster (potential)

I was playing in a 5/10 limit last week, and someone said something that struck me as interesting.

I was holding A/10, 4 people in the pot, so it was a rather large pot by the turn/river.

On the flop I had top pair, but didn't think my kicker was good with all the action the flop got, so I ended up cold calling a 2 or 3 bet.

Turn comes and I get my kicker paired up. however, the board has a strt possible AQ10. One of the cold callers from the flop wakes up and 3 bet over top of me and another guy (who started the betting and folded to the 3 bet). I called down to the river and lost to a KJ.

The fella that folded on the turn to a 3 bet mentions he had A10, and said something along the lines of "It's amazing how many people on pokerstars will call down a straight with 2 pair". I had mucked my cards only a second before he said that, so I don't think he knew what I had.

I felt I was beat when the turn was 3bet, but the pot was so big at this point I felt it was the right move to showdown.

What do you guys think?

Now for a tourney situation last night. I was med stack with about 8k in chips. On the button with 34h. Action comes to me with 3 other limpers, I limp in for a flop.

The BB raises 2xBB, with all 3 other limpers calling I call to. Flop comes
3s 4c 9s. BB raises AI for 3-4k, 2 limpers fold, and the last one pushes AI for 9k which puts me at the decision to call AI with my 2 pair.

I figured at best I am up against pocket pairs and/or a flush draw. So I call. BB shows A9 , and limper beside me shows AJs for the flush draw, so I pat myself on the back just as the turn shows the other spade to knock me out of the tourney.

Worth risking a tourney in this situation?

KK

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

Worth risking a tourney in this situation?

Yes. At worst you're up against a set. No one would be in there with 9 4 or 9 3 so at that point you probably have the best hand. You have outs to beat the flush if it comes. I'd be in that pot.

mj

I think the first situation is a laydown. Especially when that last card comes and the guy "wakes up" tht big.
Should raise with top pair to eliminate the draws.

The tourny situation I think was a good call on your part, bad call with a flush draw IMO.

First one: I'll let the limit guys answer, but the SSH answer would be that you have to show this one down.

Second one: In an unraised pot I'd be kind of fearful of a set, but not enough to fold here. You made the right read and the right call.

Im not a limit player, but in the first situation, that guy seemed to be overplaying a gutshot straight draw. He got lucky, but if you ran through that situation 1000 times, you'd make money on it.....

2nd situation, limp in and catch 2pair, going up against a pair with good kicker and flush flushdraw AI is a wetdream......once again, cards didn't go your way, but over the course of time, it is still the right move....


sometimes you get kicked in the nuts for making the right move...

In the first situation, where was the guy's position relative to you and the other bettors? If it was possible, I like raising here with any opponents left to act so that they are cold-calling for an extra bet (making it even less correct). Depending on the various positions, you could tip the scales between acceptable odds and incorrect odds. That said, I can see the kicker worries, but if you're cold-calling a 3 bet, you need at least as good a hand as you do to reraise (don't you?...I'd have thought so anyway).

- Jeffrey

Note: The above is using every trick I know of in limit. I haven't played a significant amount, so take all of it with about a pound of salt. Just my thoughts given the understanding I have of the theory.

First, I play 5/10 limit, and in my experience, A,10 is a folding hand to a pre flop raise, and always a fold to a 3 bet on the flop. When a caller 3 bets the turn, there is nothing he can reasonably have that you can beat.
In this situation, I think your play was better than the idiot who cold called 3 bets with only the inside straight draw, but if can't truthfully answer the question "would I play this way with a worse hand?" It is time to fold.
You did get some useful information with your call on the river though, since you are committed when you call the turn, you can call one more bet to see what he was betting. However, the correct play, I think, is to fold to the reraise on the turn.
In the tourney: perfect play, 100%

I find when i play suited connectors, and flop two pair...i usually get kicked in the teeth...statistically i shouldn't be, its usually some clown overagressive with the open ended, but i've seen overpairs with board pairing....etc...

Immediately after reading this post, I flopped two pair and ended up losing to a straight. I guess I should've paid better attention.

hey goolick you finally signed up for this forum i figured you would after all ive been saying about it.

i guess i wont be able to divulge all my strategies on here

2pr's lose to a straights all the time. it is quite logical if you think about it. what kinds of cards are you playing when you hit 2pr? outside the blinds, it's probably: (1) two high suited cards; (2) two high connectors, or (3) suited connectors. why? partly because they can all make straights. so when your cards are on the board, that puts a 2-straight on the board and all it takes is one more connected card to complete somebody else's straight. and what are they generally playing? the same kinds of cards, so the likelihood that that particular 3-straight on the board hit them is also high.

only when you hit 2pr in the BB or playing AXs/KXs do you avoid this problem.

now should you fold 2pr against an obvious str8? i guess it depends on the pot size. you do you have 4 outs to fill up.

ChezJ

I think you're much safer making the call heads up. Results usually taint people's thinking and I think that's the case here. 2 small pair against an all-in and a re-raise all-in should tell you that if you are not yet beat, there are probably enough cards to knock you out that you should fold, IMO. In this situation, although you had the best hand, there were more than just spades that could have knocked you out. If an Ace, 9, spade or running pair hits then you are toast. Against one opponent the you should call, but against 2, the odds of winning drop significantly. Of course, you have to factor in your opponents play in previous hands and what you think they would play the pot with. I would probably let go my 2 BB investment and wait for a situation where you know you're the favorite.

I would have folded that 2 pair in the tournament situation. Only because there were already 2 all in callers. If it were to be heads up I would say call, but IMO there are way to many outs for you to lose on that. Besides the flush if someone is holding pocket pairs and the 9 pairs your done. Yes if you hit another 3 or 4 your golden but I just don't see the sense of going all in with 3's and 4's when your next hand could be AA.

Only reason I would is if I was short stacked and about to blinded out, or I had great reads on my opps and knew neither had the flush draw or poket pairs.

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I agree, with 2 all in callers already I would have no problem laying down 2 pair.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

2 pr sucks :P

Agreed.

I don't know why so many people (myself included, sometimes) get a stiffy when they get two pair.

Two pair beats exactly TWO poker hands -- and one of those is actually a LACK of anything else!