General micro stakes questions

I play micro stakes cash because I have a small bankroll. I try to play TAG poker and I multi-table so I don't do any creative moves. I have some questions though because I lose lots of money in some hands. TPTK is my biggest problem. I play premium hands really aggressively. But I'm always caught by a two pair or trips and I lose a lot of money. Maybe I'm overvaluing top pairs so here's my question.

How do you play top pair top kicker hands post flop? Do you bet to the end, or do you play them cautiously?

kind of depends on the board and the opponent(s). against more than 1 opponent it should be played cautiously. there are some people that I will play TP like the nuts against, and others where if they are calling I will slow down on a drawless board.

I think if you are routinely betting all 3 streets strong with TPTK you are throwing away chips. if you are doing it for a specific reason, then that is different.

watch your opponent. if hes loose or aggressive...lean more towards treating TP like a very strong hand. if hes tight or only calls a lot, you may want to take a shot or two, then check the river...depending on the texture of the board.

of course, those are very general points. you just have to "feel" out when TP isnt that strong anymore.

but most importantly, dont do the same thing all the time. it sounds more like you bet pot, bet pot, bet pot...and then wonder why they arent raising you with 2 pair or better.

why would they? they KNOW you are going to continue to bet as long as they only call. it takes the risk/decisions off them, and makes their games easier.

start check raising occasionally. check call THEM some. vary your plays.

i hate to say it, but i think its time to "get creative." its just another step in your development. you have to get past the next hurdle to continue to improve, imo.

it depends.

There are alot of spots where you wont be going for three streets of value with top pair hands.

Post some hands for some more specific advice/criticism

Depends on a few things:

1) The board. Watch out for drawing hands. If draws miss by the river and you are oop, try checking to induce bluffs. Is the board paired? If it is and opponent is raising or betting strong, may indicate trips. How big is your top pair? Is it low enough where villain may have an overpair? How strongly is opponent playing this low board?

2) Opponent. Is villain laggy? If so, try getting them to bet into you, rather than you into them. Is villain taggy? Treat these different players differently.

3) Position. The worse the position you are in, the smaller the pots you want to play in, so bet accordingly. Find out asap wether or not you are ahead- ie. check raising flop oop or betting pot when someone leads into you.

There are so many factors to consider, others include stack sizes, table image etc. It's best that you just practice the hell out of your game so that you feel more and more comfortable with your reading abilities.

I would really like to post some hands but my site doesn't support the hand converter so I can't.

I wanna write an imaginary hand just for example

I have AK, I raise to .50 (0.05-0.10 table) the guy calls. The flop is 6K8. I bet the pot he calls. the turn is trash I bet he calls. river is also trash I check, this time he bets the pot. Would you fold this? What's the point in playing big hands then? Especially at these levels I really can't figure out who is calling with what. Do you stop betting at the turn or the river?

Just because the site doesnt support the hand converter doesnt mean you cant. Get the HH text and clean it up manually.

You can add the cards/suits by clicking on the emoticons on the left. It doesnt need to be exactly the same format as the converter, just make it fairly easy to read.

edit: I misread the hand first time so Ill try again. In this situation if youve bet pot on 2 streets and he pots the river when few obvious draws have missed you can fold Vs alot of opponents. Suits are important for this hand to see if a flush draw missed. Your opponent is also important.

I dont actually like betting pot on every street though. It makes your pot odds for bluffs suck and drives out worse hands when you have a non nut hand (most of the time).

Of course I'm really careful when the texture is dangerous. but I'm really losing a lot to two pair and sets with top pair. So let me ask you this way. How do you avoid losing so much to trips or two pair (hidden ones) when you have only top pair? It's sure to bet at the flop with tptk, but let's say he called you. How do you play the turn and the river if there are no flush or straight possibilities? Do you bet till the end and lose to the trips like me? Or do you check and fold to the calling stations who just called you with Ace-rag?

Originally Posted by mukaka

Do you bet till the end and lose to the trips like me?

no

Or do you check and fold to the calling stations who just called you with Ace-rag?

no

First of all if its a calling station Im probably going for 3 streets of value with TPTK and hoping to be called by a weaker kicker.

If its someone a little better who wont call 3 streets then you need to check at some point to encourage weaker hands to come along, and to lose less when you are behind.

An example is you have AK and position against a decent but not great player who you know to be quite tight. Effective stacks 100bb.

You raise preflop. He calls. The flop is A84 rainbow. He checks to you and you cbet 3/4 pot. He calls.

Turn is the offsuit 7. He checks to you again. Hes tight so its very unlikely he has a draw. Its also fairly unlikely he'll call off another bet with just AQ or TT.

Since his range consists almost entirely of stuff you beat that folds, or stuff you are behind (i.e. sets or maybe 78) that doesn't, you check behind. If he bets into you on the river you can call and it will often be a bluff, or a value bet from something like AQ so you can call. If he checks you can bet and hes far more likely to call with a worse hand like TT. This play works because our turn bet splits his range and basically never folds a better hand or gets called by a worse one. The bet is neither a value bet nor a bluff and we only have weak draws to protect against so we dont bet.

Against a calling station who will call with hands like A6 there is still alot of value in betting so we bet.

BUT against a very passive calling station who calls preflop, calls the A84 flop, calls the 7 turn and then either leads pot, or check raises us on the 6 river, we can fold and be fairly sure he just hit trips+.

In other words start getting to know your opponents and how much theyll call off with what ranges. That will make your decisions alot easier.

You really don't need to be making Godlike soul reads at this level but noticing some basic traits will allow you to make/save a few extra bets here and there that will really boost your winrate. Just stuff like - passive i.e. if you have TPTK and he raises get the hell out of his way.
Tight - blind steal a little more from him. Don't value bet 3 streets of TPTK on drawless boards if hes shown he wont call the turn with worse. Calling station - Do value bet all you can against the guy who will call down with just top pair and no kicker. Very aggressive - call more river raises with decent but not great hands especially if obvious draws miss.

You'll figure this sort of thing out on your own eventually. It just comes with experience.

You really don't need to be making Godlike soul reads at this level but noticing some basic traits will allow you to make/save a few extra bets here and there that will really boost your winrate. Just stuff like - passive i.e. if you have TPTK and he raises get the hell out of his way.
Tight - blind steal a little more from him. Don't value bet 3 streets of TPTK on drawless boards if hes shown he wont call the turn with worse. Calling station - Do value bet all you can against the guy who will call down with just top pair and no kicker. Very aggressive - call more river raises with decent but not great hands especially if obvious draws miss.

and thats how its done at the lower stakes. summed up very well.

nh, pel.

Originally Posted by mukaka

TPTK is my biggest problem. I play premium hands really aggressively. But I'm always caught by a two pair or trips and I lose a lot of money. Maybe I'm overvaluing top pairs...

This post took me back to when I first started...I used to get creamed with TPTK.

at these stakes TPTK is quite weak especially if you don't have any draws. instead of worrying about whether you're driving opponents out, i try to play ak/aq as hands to trap villians at the table with. many times, i think people feel attached to TPTK simply because they raise a significant amount preflop. at these stakes, i would simply limp in with ak/aq from early and mid position. if the table is incredibly loose and you find a bunch of limpers ahead when you're in late position, you should without a doubt raise. however, most of the time it suffices to limp. if you miss the flop and are without any great draws, it's an easy fold. however, when you do hit your pair, read your opponents very carefully. having not raised preflop, your likely to have better pot odds to be playing with. in my experience, you push your monsters hard preflop, earn your money, and try to maintain it or grow it by hitting your draws or traps with all of the other hands. it will definitely test your reading skills, but this will only make you a better player and one that won't fret when in these types of situation.

How do you get reads while multi-tabling except using programs like PT? (since I can't use them)

Originally Posted by mukaka

How do you get reads while multi-tabling except using programs like PT? (since I can't use them)

Depends how many tables you play. If it's 2-4 you should be able to keep track of the action, see who's a maniac, who's a calling station etc. etc. Any more than about 4 and you need PT and PAHUD.

I'm never playing more than three tables. I'll try to figure them out.

Originally Posted by dstir2

at these stakes TPTK is quite weak especially if you don't have any draws. instead of worrying about whether you're driving opponents out, i try to play ak/aq as hands to trap villians at the table with. many times, i think people feel attached to TPTK simply because they raise a significant amount preflop. at these stakes, i would simply limp in with ak/aq from early and mid position. if the table is incredibly loose and you find a bunch of limpers ahead when you're in late position, you should without a doubt raise. however, most of the time it suffices to limp. if you miss the flop and are without any great draws, it's an easy fold. however, when you do hit your pair, read your opponents very carefully. having not raised preflop, your likely to have better pot odds to be playing with. in my experience, you push your monsters hard preflop, earn your money, and try to maintain it or grow it by hitting your draws or traps with all of the other hands. it will definitely test your reading skills, but this will only make you a better player and one that won't fret when in these types of situation.

Thats pretty horrible. The very fact that they are quite vulnerable and weak means that they should NOT be played to trap other players. If you let half the table see a flop you will often be outflopped. At micro stakes TPTK is a money hand. You raise preflop with AK so that you build a pot to narrow the field. You then bet 3 streets when the flop comes A63 vs these loose players. Sometimes you win to a single pair of Ax. Sometimes you lose to 2 pair with Ax. More often than not, you make money. You say to push your monsters hard preflop. AK is a preflop monster at these stakes. You are so far ahead of the limp/call range of everyone else at the table that you just have to get some money in. Limping and then trying not to lose too much is certainly a safer way to play it, but it wont make you much money. Instead you should try and develop your postflop skills to the point where you can get away from it sometimes when you are outflopped, and you can get the money in when you arent. If you can do that then AK is a definate raising hand.

pelion, stop stealing my thunder, man. lol.
another nh, sir. dammit.

guys, please dont "trap" or slowplay TP when you are in a limped pot. please dont limp AQ+. you are only costing yourselves money. i dont care how loose you opposition is, or how often they call. you WILL make money with these hands when they flop TP so overwhelmingly often it will scare you.

as for "reading" players at multiple tables, i am not the best at it...by far, but...

1) pay most attention to the 2-3 players to your left (you will be trying to steal their blinds).
2) pay attention to the two players on your right (they may try to steal yours).
3) watch for obvious idiots. guys calling all the time that seem to be in every hand. guys raising all the time. guys showing down crap starting hands.

make your reads based off these people. if someone doesnt STAND OUT to you...respect them, at lower stakes. when they bet, take them seriously.

i didnt say fold. i said take them seriously.

And if you're trying to use reads but can't get or be sure of reads while playing multi tables IMHO you are left with 2 choices:

1. Play basic ABC poker and stop trying to use reads.
2. Keep reading, but stop playing multiple tables until you can keep track of the villians at one table. Then try two tables, etc.

Watch a microstakes table sometime without playing. Keep track of the showdowns. See how many times you see a limper or PF caller make a set or better but never(!) bets it. Also check how many times middle pair calls all the way to the end unimproved. This is the world of microstakes. There is no chart. At these stakes, a big post flop bet means a big hand the overwhelming majority of the time.
When you really stop and think about it, since micro players love to play Acrap, If you hold AK and the flop is A, little, little against 3 villians what are the chances that you're ahead right now? The old saying about AA; "wins a little pot and loses a big pot" can be applied to some extent to all the top hands at loose microstakes games full of callingstations. You're making your money on sets or better.

but you also make money by taking away the odds of all the idiot-chasers with TP.

...so long as the board doesnt fill the flush...or there arent 4+ people in the pot with you.

pick your spots, and be aggressive!!

Originally Posted by Chopper

but you also make money by taking away the odds of all the idiot-chasers with TP.

...so long as the board doesnt fill the flush...or there arent 4+ people in the pot with you.

pick your spots, and be aggressive!!

Agreed. But I think the OP is overvaluing TPTK. He did say that he "Always" gets beat by 2pr or trips. This of course can not be literally true. But I agree that when learning Post Flop play it can seem that way!!!. TPTK should certainly be played hard, but not like it's invulnerable. As described in his scenario :

I have AK, I raise to .50 (0.05-0.10 table) the guy calls. The flop is 6K8. I bet the pot he calls. the turn is trash I bet he calls. river is also trash I check, this time he bets the pot. Would you fold this?

my answer is yes, more often than I call it. Show me the suits, stack size and what the guy has done for the last hour and my answer probably changes. But in that scenario, no reads, I will always strongly consider folding TPTK. After all, as described, this is a call of more than a buyin. With TPTK? serious smoke coming from my ears!!!

When you are thinking about putting money in with TPTK remember there is a big difference between being called and being raised.

i dont call with TPTK. i raise it, if possible. and i RARELY slow play it...if i do, it isnt twice...i just want something a bit more coordinated to hit the board.

if i catch TPTK oop, i bet out. and again, and maybe again on the river. i will even 3bet the flop with it sometimes. you need to find out very early the interest level of your opponent. you dont necessarily want to stack off with it, but if that happens...the flop is the place to do it...not the river.

it becomes more and more vulnerable with each additional card...when you have a caller(s).

kinda like AA, you dont want to "build a pot" with TPTK. you want to end the hand quickly. the more somebody shows interest, the more you should get suspicious...but that doesnt mean back off.

if you back off too much, you will really see the suckouts.

its a fine line, and only experience can teach you when to push it hard, and when to get suspicious.

i wish there were a hard and fast rule, but there just isnt. however, i lean towards aggression, and think you should too.

at the micros, you dont get into nearly as much trouble by being overly aggressive, as you do at much higher stakes. people down here still cower to the bullies too often.

priceless info guys thanks a lot. I think I'll play the top pairs much better now. I play really good cash live but online I suck mainly because I can't figure out players especially these micro stakes ones. And this three "bet the pot" strategy with top pair was something I planned to do when I saw these donks calling with second pairs or stupid draws. I never do that actually and I play them perfectly. But in these levels I don't know what they are calling with so I'm always in a dilemma.

Another problem I'm having is calling drawing hands pre-flop like small-medium pairs up to JJ and suited connectors. I know the 10x rule but no matter what the raise is, as long as I and my opponent have 10x, I call pre-flop (with PP's). Is this wrong? Does the raise size matter? Because I don't seem to hit them a lot and I feel like I'm spending a lot of money.

Drawing hands is a different issue. I usually don't call raises with them because when you are playing with competent players, they can drive you out of the pot. But in micro stakes, since people don't know how to bet, when I have position I call raises with suited connectors or one gappers. What do you think?

15x works better than 10x because you wont get their stack on every flop. Sometimes they'll raise AK preflop and dont stack off when they miss. Sometimes they raise QQ and dont stack off when an A or K comes. etc.

Originally Posted by mukaka

I play micro stakes cash because I have a small bankroll. I try to play TAG poker and I multi-table so I don't do any creative moves. I have some questions though because I lose lots of money in some hands. TPTK is my biggest problem. I play premium hands really aggressively. But I'm always caught by a two pair or trips and I lose a lot of money. Maybe I'm overvaluing top pairs so here's my question.

How do you play top pair top kicker hands post flop? Do you bet to the end, or do you play them cautiously?

post examples then we can give you ideas to work from.