Going on Tilt: What is it, and how to avoid it

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Awesome, you're the man 8) Thanks for taking the time to post these articles, I know they'll help not only me but a lot of other players out there.

That last article is highly suspect. KJ suited a raising hand? Seeing the flop w/ A8 suited? Maybe you could make those moves in LP, but in EP-MP those aren't exactly solid plays. And A8s is a very problematic hand, not "a very strong hand" when the flop comes A-9-10. Two pair aces-up has you practically nutted w/ that flop, and any solid player who's giving any action is liable to have at least an ace with better kicker.

Personally, I will try to see the flop (if I can do it for cheap) with Axs any day of the week. Far too much potential for a big payday if you flop a flush or 4-to-the-flush.

If I can limp-in or call a small raise, I'm stayin' every time with Axs.

If I can limp-in or call a small raise, I'm stayin' every time with Axs.

Ditto

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

If I can limp-in or call a small raise, I'm stayin' every time with Axs.

It depends. At a tight/aggressive table you want to fold Ace-little suited from EP/MP because the chance of a later acting player making a raise you can not or would rather not call is too high and kills your profit.

BTW, all these articles make me want to bust out the mouse ears. Looks like something some affiliate pimp put together to round up some hoes.

Per tilt, there was a much better series on the subject a few weeks ago in CardPlayer mag.

That last article was junk, meaningless words. But let's hope our adversaries swear by those wanna-be strategy sites. I love those cashouts!

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

Personally, I will try to see the flop (if I can do it for cheap) with Axs any day of the week. Far too much potential for a big payday if you flop a flush or 4-to-the-flush.

If I can limp-in or call a small raise, I'm stayin' every time with Axs.

Axs is probably the most overrated hand in poker, most pros will tell you that. Also, drawing can be killer in NL, so it loses a lot of value there, especially on PP where the buy-in is small relative to the blinds (though you can rake in huge pots on there against fish when you do connect). Unless it's A10s or AJs or you're at a table where there's not much preflop raising, you will likely be able to draw cheaply if you make a four-flush, and/or are bound to be paid off big if you connect w/ the flush, you should probably reserve it for limping in LP and the SB and otherwise muck.

Actually, that second article isn't so great either:

The whole key in playing Texas Hold'em is to force as many people out of the hand as you can, without them having to turn over their cards.

I don't really agree with this, this will force you to overplay your cards. In fact, aren't your biggest pots the ones where there ARE showdowns?

You can practise your bluffing strategy at Party Poker, against real people.

Dude, that is NOT the place to practice bluffing!?! There are way too many chasers and undisciplined players at PP to rely on a random bluffing strategy! And you have to develop the right table image and be up against the right players to really incorporate a successful bluffing strategy.

The ideal time to bluff is when you won the previous hand.

How do you guys feel about this? I think that following rules like the one above is crap. I think every hand and situation needs to be independently analyzed, it's just not that simple.

I guess all I got to say is be careful reading and incorporating random internet poker content. Don't get me wrong, there are some (but very few) quality strategy sites out there... I didn't really learn from any of them, I learned from books, and then primarily from my own blood and sweat.

Using Fnord's terminology - Pimps don't play poker, they're too busy attracting hoes. Get it?

Originally Posted by twosevoff

Axs is probably the most overrated hand in poker, most pros will tell you that. Also, drawing can be killer in NL, so it loses a lot of value there, especially on PP where the buy-in is small relative to the blinds (though you can rake in huge pots on there against fish when you do connect). Unless it's A10s or AJs or you're at a table where there's not much preflop raising, you will likely be able to draw cheaply if you make a four-flush, and/or are bound to be paid off big if you connect w/ the flush, you should probably reserve it for limping in LP and the SB and otherwise muck.

Yeah, agree that AXs lose a lot of value once the X gets below Ten. Broadway straights and combination draws into them add a lot of value, hence I've never been a big fan of A9.

The best time to bust out the weak suited ace is when you're at a low limit game where half the table has limped from in front of you. Heck, if I'm in the BB/SB/Button/CO with Axs and a ton of limpers in front I'll put in a raise if the pot is unraised.

Also, don't forget that trip Xs and 2 pair hold up well when you have Ace-X. Also A3 A4 and A5 can make nice wheel straights w/ combo draws. It's not just all about the flush. It's just the flush is totally the difference between a profitable hand vs a trap.

Originally Posted by ttanaka

Actually, that second article isn't so great either:

The whole key in playing Texas Hold'em is to force as many people out of the hand as you can, without them having to turn over their cards.

I don't really agree with this, this will force you to overplay your cards. In fact, aren't your biggest pots the ones where there ARE showdowns?

Yeah, I think he's turning a good point into suicide. Forcing out others when you have a pretty good hand, however is solid LHE play.

Originally Posted by ttanaka

You can practise your bluffing strategy at Party Poker, against real people.

Dude, that is NOT the place to practice bluffing!?! There are way too many chasers and undisciplined players at PP to rely on a random bluffing strategy! And you have to develop the right table image and be up against the right players to really incorporate a successful bluffing strategy.

Right players is key, some people just can't lay down any pair. However, if you're going to play hands like AJo, KTo, etc. profitably outside of a steal, being able to over-represent your hand to turn some small losses into small wins is key to making money with those positions. It also forces aware players to consider calling you down when you play better hands.

Originally Posted by ttanaka

The ideal time to bluff is when you won the previous hand.

How do you guys feel about this? I think that following rules like the one above is crap. I think every hand and situation needs to be independently analyzed, it's just not that simple.

Yup, although it's funny because the fish actually do respect someone on the "rush." When I'm running cold, I'm far more likely to get the big call-down by someone with pocket 3s or bottom pair.

I think bluffing comes down to a few factors....

o Number of opponents
o What the other player(s) are capable of laying down
o Draw(s) that are out the other player might call down with
o Plausable hands I could be representing with my bet (like Ace big kicker or big PP)
o Size of the pot relative to the size of bet I need to make.
o How dead my hand is
o How likely it is the other player hit a hand
o My current table image


As you move up in limits, bluffing becomes a lot more profitable. In most .5/1 games worth playing you can be profitable and never bluff, although even in those games there are situations where it's +EV to throw out a bet.

[quote="ttanaka"]

The ideal time to bluff is when you won the previous hand.

How do you guys feel about this? I think that following rules like the one above is crap. I think every hand and situation needs to be independently analyzed, it's just not that simple.

it is crap - try that on PP in a limit of NL game and see how fast you go broke!

now, an SNG is a good place for bluffing. you're with the same group of players for 50 - 100 hands, and if you establish a "tight aggressive" (my choice) or "all-in maniac" image early on, that with the fear of busting out can make bluffing very successful, especially against the smaller stacks.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I agree...I read that and thought the same thing Fish...every hand is different. Just because you won the previous hand doesn't mean somebody is going to lay down a strong hand against you...if anything he is going to come harder for your stack

Odd... I have the exact opposite observation. Then again I almost exclusivly play cash games and the "oh shit he's on a rush" reaction tends to kick in after you quickly pick up a 2-3 pots via showdown. Had a nice run a couple nights ago playing .25/.50 stud on Poker Stars where I extended a 20BB+ rush with a couple extra small pots.

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rypp you and fnord got a feud goin on? , i see evertime you post he gives his angle, usually opposite, and you come back with sarcastick remark, this is gonna make for an exciting battle at FTR II, too bad, I'm gonna be knockin both of you two out

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I guess I should have given Rippy that reach around last night...

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

btw you'll note that Fnord was out before me in the FTR showdown 8)

Umm... actually I finished 10th to your 11th... not that it's much to be proud of...

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I'd love to get this guy on my table anytime anywhere for any amount. His die hard analytical approach is putty in my hands.

I eat guys like him for breakfast in 1 on 1's

Heads up is a very different game.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

yup...it's a different game

yada yada yada

so accept or decline my challenge ?

I thought about it and figured it would be pointless. The loser of a single game would blame the cards. 2 out of 3 would be a more interesting alternative, but even then the luck vs skill factor would be massive. Then consider that my strength is in 5-10 player ring games where my semi-tight aggressive style works, where-as your super-aggressive style and SnG experience would be a better fit for heads-up putting me at a disadvantage.

Besides, I seem to be burning credibility slower in this little exchange...

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ok that's it guys . . .

God orders you to stop!

That will be me btw

Anyway's back to the original post yeah those sites have some dodgy advise, esp bluffing PP, PP can be a nightmare on a table of fish, its hurtful to have AA cracked by 74os in capped pf.

Also on rushes I disagree Fnord, I find that when I'm on a rush people seem to think I'm bluffing and call me down more I think it could also be the logic of "hmm, he had good cards the last two times, he can't have them now" kicking in. Either way its nice to be called down, but I've been playing .5/1 which could explain the differance.

Originally Posted by Toasty

Also on rushes I disagree Fnord, I find that when I'm on a rush people seem to think I'm bluffing and call me down more I think it could also be the logic of "hmm, he had good cards the last two times, he can't have them now" kicking in. Either way its nice to be called down, but I've been playing .5/1 which could explain the differance.

i would tend to agree with this - at least my perception of someone on a "rush".

i don't recall any rushes of my own!

and, if people don't start getting along, i will change my avatar to a picture of me wearing an FTR extra large thong.

i don't think any of us what that!

OH GOD NO!!!! An old man in a thong!! PLEASE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

OH GOD NO!!!! An old man in a thong!! PLEASE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trying to squeeze into thong, so tight, maybe if i bounce around...

here's the funny part...you guys are giving WAY too much credit to the other players on Party Poker. They are not thinking

"Oooh he may be on a rush, he's won 4 of the last 6 pots at showdown."

Nor are they thinking

"There's no way he's got good cards again, I'd better call here..."


They are thinking:

"WHAT DO I HAVE? IS IT GOOD?"
or
"I'VE GOT A GOOD FEELING ABOUT THIS HAND YUK YUK YUK"

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

Identifying people who are on tilt can be a great moneymaker. Odds are they have a weak hand, and are just betting anything because they are so frustrated. If someone is on tilt and is betting wildly, odds are that they will lose if you take them to a showdown with a decent pair of hole cards. This can be a great way to build up your stack. You might catch an unlucky break sometimes, but the odds are in your favor.

Last night at a live tournament, there was one player at my table who was acting the ass. He would not post his blind. Act as though he didn't know how to deal, slow fold / slow call. He also made it obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing, he just decided to play as dead money. There was one point that 2 people at our table were close to throwing punches.

I hated this guy as much as they did, but I also loved the fact that he was getting to others. I had done nothing, and I had 3 players on tilt at my table. I probably should have spoke up and said that Scott (the ass) was getting exactly what he wanted. As much as I liked having 3 players on tilt, I wanted this guy out as much as they did.

The point is that I knew this guy wanted us on tilt, so I adjusted and made sure to keep my composure. I used this to my advantage and took some money away from everybody by being in the middle of a tilted raising war when I had a superior hand.

Kind of late to put my 2 cents in on Axs, but here goes:

I will limp in with Axs from LP or MP.

I will fold Axs from EP, unless it is pretty tight or passive table.

I will fold Axs if there is a raise before I've limped.

I will call a small raise with Axs if I've already limped.

Axs is my new favourite hand

But to qualify... only in loose passive games. And to be further on topic, it is very useful to have been bluffing prior. Last I was taking a lot of pots, it gets under peoples skin (this is a rather new style for me). From this I was only breaking even. But with this prime calling hand on a passive board, they let me flop my draw and then the nut. I check raised and took down a monster pot to the tune of $50 (25c BB). I would never have got that without the agressor table image. The guy said after he was sure it was a bluff. Similarly suited connectors, and I'm even favouring semi suited's, are extremely useful. Again, only loose passive. If there is an aggressor (besides yourself) then yes most times it will cost too much after the subsequent reraise. Caveat emptor... UB player here, can PP really be that fishy? If so I need to try it out.

Oh and hello new here... playing 3 months of friday nights at friends and 3 weeks (25 hours) online. Up a few hundred so far (mainly from UB)... hope it's not luck.