How much to see the flop?

I play hold'em with 5 friends about once a week. I was wondering if I should loosen up a bit to see the flop. We buy in for $20 and blinds usually stay at .25 and .50. I think these are pretty low so I was thinking maybe I should at least pay to see the flop if there are no raises. I have been playing fairly tight but it kills me to see that I would have won if I had stayed in. I know this happens to everyone but if the cost is only .50 I wonder if I should try to see more flops. Any input?

Originally Posted by tmozz

I play hold'em with 5 friends about once a week. I was wondering if I should loosen up a bit to see the flop. We buy in for $20 and blinds usually stay at .25 and .50. I think these are pretty low so I was thinking maybe I should at least pay to see the flop if there are no raises. I have been playing fairly tight but it kills me to see that I would have won if I had stayed in. I know this happens to everyone but if the cost is only .50 I wonder if I should try to see more flops. Any input?

Hi and welcome to FTR, it's good to have you here!

This depends on a number of factors:
- Position! If you're going to play less than premium hands then you're far better off doing it from the button rather than when you're going to be OOP postflop
- How good a postflop player you are - if you limp in with 87s then don't go broke on an 862 rainbow flop (reverse implied odds)
- How the other players play - if they are aggressive and will very frequently raise preflop meaning you can't see a cheap flop then it's not worth it, if they are calling stations and will not fold to a postflop bluff bets then it's rarely worth it either

Also, if you're going to be playing less than premium hands on a 5-handed table, consider RAISING rather than just limping in, this sets you up to take the pot away on a missed flop (unless they are calling stations) as well as disguises it when you pick up a monster hand and raise.

One last thing, don't be results oriented! Sure, we all have times when we fold 32 offsuit and the flop comes 333 or 222 or 332 or something like that, but always limping in with 32 offsuit on the off chance that you'll flop some monster loses money in the long run. Also, focusing on what the result would have been can lead you to bad play.

Thanks for the input Taipan. Most of the players limp in to see the flop. Sometimes one will raise .50 preflop. So I guess we are pretty conservative. I don't think I would stay in with very poor hands but I'm wondering if I should consider J8, Q6, A7 etc. Based on your advice I guess I would consider those hands if I were one of the blinds. assuming there were no previous raises.
Well, thanks for the advice. Time to get to my game. Wish me luck!

It sounds like your going to have lots of calling stations, but most home games do. As taipan said, play in position with your speculative hands like suited connectors, suited gappers. Id limp in or raise from any position with any pocket pair when its only 5 handed at such a passive table. Dont play hands like 5T, J8 etc. from early position either. A .50 blind isnt really all that cheap when its only a $20 buyin. Also, be aggressive with your strong hands and raise 3-4x the BB if your going to raise preflop. Dont be afraid to reraise someone after they minraised when you hold a good hand either.

to me, oh...welcome aboard, by the way, it sounds like you may be "looser" than you realize. when i hear stuff like, "it's only .50, or "shouldnt i pay to see the flop, if there are no raises," it tells me you are seeing more flops than you should already. maybe i'm wrong, just my gut.

also, .50 as a big blind IS a lot of money, if you only are buying in for $20. you simply, dont have enough of a stack, at first, to play very many "goofy" hand combinations. you see a raise with AK, you reraise to $2, there are 3 callers...the pot is $6.50 or so, and you havent seen the flop! the flop comes A 5 J with 2 hearts, and you need to protect against the flush draw, so you bet $5, and get called by one guy..pot now over $16. if you see a heart hit the turn, and your buddy bets his remaining $13, you "almost" need to call because your stack is small in relation to the pot size. if i got this right everybody, you are about 2:1 on your money here (you are putting in $13 to win $29), meaning you only need to be the winner 33ish% of the time to call profitably here?

thing is, if you DONT see the heart on the turn, you still need to bet the same $13 to make it unprofitable for your buddy. and he may still call if he's loose. then, when the heart also misses the river, you have no money left to punish him for trying to draw, or if he had a A with a weaker kicker...losing lots of value on your good hand.

what i am saying is this...BECAUSE your stacks are already small, you need to either play with deeper stacks, or YOU need to be choosier about which hands you decide to play to begin with (tighter). every .50 counts when you only have $20. it doesnt seem like much, but you need all of it when you hit your AA, and get the chance to double through!!

you can see more flops when you are in late position (and dont have to bluff your draws), and if you make sure you have MORE THAN ONE OTHER GUY in the pot with you already for .50...and preferrably 2+ players.

if these guys are only raising another .50 when they raise, i would also raise it up myself to $2 evertime i raise with my better cards TT+, AJs+, AQo+. you need to punish them for calling your raises with weaker cards, too. when they call your raise, it puts more into the pot, and when you hit your pair on the flop, you can bet the full pot, and take it right there...something like $2-3 instead of $1.50.

hope that helps.

Originally Posted by tmozz

I don't think I would stay in with very poor hands but I'm wondering if I should consider J8, Q6, A7 etc.

Welcome to FTR. Vomit on those hands you mentioned. Maybe Axs when in position after limpers but J8 and Q6 are extremely terrible hands. If you are asking what type of hands to play and if it is profitable to limp any two, then you're probably not very good at playing post flop.

This means that if you see a flop with lets say A7s and the board come A6T rainbow, you're probably the type to lose your stack here. When other better players can fold to aggression on this flop. You have to have a plan and know what you are playing for. With A7s you are looking to hit a FD and two pair +.

Some of the best players can play any two when in position because they can out play their opponents. However, against very bad opponents that only play their cards and won't fold, you should be playing ABC poker. In other words, play only the best hands and bet hard when you hit.

You should be playing 22+, suited connectors (scs) in position, and ATs+ and AJo+. Every now and then you can throw in Axs (i.e. ace and small no face card and suited) when in position, but you are looking for more than top pair (TP).

By limping a lot of hands, you will be a big loser in the long run.

thanks for all the info everyone. From what everone has said, I think I should continue to just play strong hands but I do need to be more aggressive when do have them. Most guys in the group only raise $1.00 maybe $2.00 on occasion. I have rarely raised pre-flop. I'm not sure why. I think that I try to wait for a really strong hand after the flop when I feel strong and others may feel week. I guess this is where I need to improve. Well, keep the pointers coming. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again

the reason you need to raise more pre-flop is probably the reason you dont. i suspect you arent raising often because you wait for a good hand, and when you get it, you think to yourself, "man, now that i have it, if i raise, it will be too obvious, so, i should just limp in, and throw them off." could that be right?

if so, that is the reason you need to raise a lot more hands, and some marginal hands before the flop, especially if the others have all folded around to you so far (first one in). you raise some weaker hands before the flop to "disguise" the times you DO have a monster. plus, if they dont know what you are raising, but know there is a high possibility that is a very strong starting hand, you can win a lot of pot right there on the flop with a 3/4 to pot-sized bet, even when you miss. your opponents will have a much harder time guessing whether or not you connected on the flop, and will see that they have to pay a hefty price just to see if their "hunch" was correct. most wont do that.

when they start messing with you and raising your bets (to put you to the test), then you either back off a bit, or raise a little more pre-flop, or re-raise their raises to put them back on the defensive. you start mixing up what you do in response to them...but those are other topics for a later date.

check out the thread of "aokrongly's starting 19." i think its stickied in the beginners forum, if not, it used to be on FTR's front page. while that is too tight for a 5-6 handed game, it gives you a good idea of the most profitable hands, and therefore, which ones you should be raising frequently. or at least a place to start, when changing some of your philosophies about the game.

good luck.

Thanks Chopper, Your first statement hit the nail on the head.