How to not go broke on this

PokerStars Game #28782314655: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2009/05/30 11:39:13 CET [2009/05/30 5:39:13 ET]
Table 'Dulcinea III' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: bluewater51 ($11.35 in chips)
Seat 2: ajsgntskf ($10.30 in chips)
Seat 3: cricket1419 ($1.20 in chips)
Seat 4: Michaelger21 ($6.10 in chips)
Seat 6: Semcik ($4.95 in chips)
Seat 7: CMRolfes1990 ($8.10 in chips)
Seat 8: DaPr099 ($8.85 in chips)
Seat 9: ManuN ($5.15 in chips)
cricket1419: posts small blind $0.05
Michaelger21: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DaPr099 [Ad Kh]
Semcik: folds
CMRolfes1990: folds
DaPr099: raises $0.20 to $0.30
ManuN: folds
bluewater51: calls $0.30
ajsgntskf: folds
cricket1419: calls $0.25
Michaelger21: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5s Ks]
cricket1419: checks
DaPr099: checks
bluewater51: bets $0.80
cricket1419: folds
DaPr099: calls $0.80
*** TURN *** [7d 5s Ks] [8c]
DaPr099: checks
bluewater51: bets $2
DaPr099: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [7d 5s Ks 8c] [5h]
DaPr099: checks
bluewater51: bets $3.60
DaPr099: raises $2.15 to $5.75 and is all-in
bluewater51: calls $2.15
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DaPr099: shows [Ad Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
bluewater51: shows [7s 7h] (a full house, Sevens full of Fives)
bluewater51 collected $17.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.10 | Rake $0.85
Board [7d 5s Ks 8c 5h]
Seat 1: bluewater51 showed [7s 7h] and won ($17.25) with a full house, Sevens full of Fives
Seat 2: ajsgntskf (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cricket1419 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Michaelger21 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Semcik folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: CMRolfes1990 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: DaPr099 showed [Ad Kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 9: ManuN folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I didn't have pt on so no stats.

any advice would be great.

One thing that helped me was to almost never check/call. I either c-bet about 2/3 pot or check/raise. With two spades, I would've c-bet 2/3 pot to give bad FD odds. Also, I would have almost no idea how good my hand is with a c/c, and it only got me in bad spots like this.

As played, I would've folded either the turn or the river.

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($11.35)
Button ($10.30)
SB ($1.20)
BB ($6.10)
UTG ($4.95)
UTG+1 ($8.10)
Hero (MP1) ($8.85)
MP2 ($5.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K
2 folds, Hero bets $0.30, 1 fold, CO calls $0.30, 1 fold, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($1) 7, 5, K (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.60) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2, Hero calls $2

River: ($6.60) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.60, Hero raises to $5.75 (All-In), CO calls $2.15

Total pot: $18.10 | Rake: $0.85


You raised PF, hit your TPTK on a FD board...why did you c/c flop?

yeah cbet. But check/calling isn't bad in general so don't "eliminate" that from your arsenal as another somewhat suggested.

sry for not converting the hand btw. I actually put him on a worse king and thought i was stacking him.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

yeah cbet. But check/calling isn't bad in general so don't "eliminate" that from your arsenal as another somewhat suggested.

That was better said. So, to clarify, I'll restate to say in this particular situation, check/calling is a major leak.

One more piece of advice for OP: turn on PT!

Yeah. You bet here because you have >50% equity against his calling range. He can call with flush draws, underpairs, worse Kings, floats, etc.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

yeah cbet. But check/calling isn't bad in general so don't "eliminate" that from your arsenal as another somewhat suggested.

So, if we do decide to c/c flop.... is leading this turn > c/c again or is that pretty much the line we take all the way down?

edit: Not to say you were suggesting it in this instance but just for my knowledge as I run into this spot alot... TPTK oop

I think c/c is pretty passive here. IMO TPTK is less valuable in a full ring than a FD. Your goal is to find out where you are so you can play your game accordingly. You thought you were stacking him because you never tested him.

If you were to bet/raise the flop are you really thinking he has KQ when he barrels into you again?

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I think c/c is pretty passive here. IMO TPTK is less valuable in a full ring than a FD. Your goal is to find out where you are so you can play your game accordingly. You thought you were stacking him because you never tested him.

If you were to bet/raise the flop are you really thinking he has KQ when he barrels into you again?

OMGOMGOMG WE HAZ TO SEE WHERE WE STAND..

if you don't want to go broke on this just call the river

I honestly cannot think of a worse way to play this hand. SRSLY. I'm sitting here trying to think of a worse way.

Hero may have been able to get away when villain raised on the flop or the turn.

Hero also should be very unlikely to commit ALL his chips with top pair top kicker. Sure we want to get the maximum possible value, but an 85bb stack is NOT the kind of stack we want to get it in with against an unknown with only top top.

What's worse is the 2 pair you sorta kinda maybe caught up with that was in his range was 78 and K7 and neither make sense for our opponent.

His line was pure value, I'm willing to bet he popped a boner when you shoved.

You're starting from the implicit assumption that going broke here is bad.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

You're starting from the implicit assumption that going broke here is bad.

Looking at my own stats, and from my own experience, at 5nl, 3 streets of value with a hand that is essentially top top is bad against unknowns.

Once I figure out they are mentally retarded, sure, I'll get my money in here, but only if I figure he's a bad player.

People keep asking me if I pay attention at the levels I play at, because I keep arguing that you should exercise caution with top pair hands once you get to the turn and the river. Like that I'm too prone to see an indian behind every tree.... But I lost a TON of money thinking top pair, top kicker was the newts against everyone at the 2nl/5nl/10nl levels.

I play a balls out aggressive game too... so it's not like I'm not getting on peoples "bs meter"

C-Bet the flop, check the turn for pot control, make the river value on these types of boards has earned me far more money than OMG I HAZ TOP PAIR TOP KICKER, I SHALL CHECK/CALL 3 STREETS AND PUKESHOVE THE RIVER FOR VALLLUUUUEEEE.

Theres a big difference between c/c, c/c, c/shove and value betting a strong hand prepared to give up to aggression.

Thats not the point I'm making though. OP only posted this because he lost. Its a results oriented thread. How do you not go broke? Fold. Answered. The questions he should be asking should be somewhat similar to:

Should I go broke here?
Whats the best line in this hand?
Should I shove river or just call?

Things that actually improve his game and show he's thinking about how to play well. If villain had KQ do you think he'd have posted this thread or questioned whether he should have played it differently?

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I think c/c is pretty passive here. IMO TPTK is less valuable in a full ring than a FD. Your goal is to find out where you are so you can play your game accordingly. You thought you were stacking him because you never tested him.

If you were to bet/raise the flop are you really thinking he has KQ when he barrels into you again?

OMGOMGOMG WE HAZ TO SEE WHERE WE STAND..

Are you implying its better to not know where we are at all?

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I think c/c is pretty passive here. IMO TPTK is less valuable in a full ring than a FD. Your goal is to find out where you are so you can play your game accordingly. You thought you were stacking him because you never tested him.

If you were to bet/raise the flop are you really thinking he has KQ when he barrels into you again?

OMGOMGOMG WE HAZ TO SEE WHERE WE STAND..

Are you implying its better to not know where we are at all?

how are you going to know that
say you raise the flop and he slowplays his set
are you ok with playing for stacks then, since he just called? BUT YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE AT

we could push preflop, which would tell us immediately where we stood. he either calls with a strong hand or folds a weak one.

we could open shove the flop, and he would call with most hands that beat us and fold out most that we beat

we could bet half our stack on the turn, and ...

thing is, there are lots of lines we could take that would tell us immediately where we are at, and would narrow villains range accordingly. Alot of these ways however, are -EV against the range of hands that villain could have or in some way weaken the amount of ev we could expect to gain.

also as iopq said, often times our "see where you're at" lines dont reveal the kinds of information we think they do.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I think c/c is pretty passive here. IMO TPTK is less valuable in a full ring than a FD. Your goal is to find out where you are so you can play your game accordingly. You thought you were stacking him because you never tested him.

If you were to bet/raise the flop are you really thinking he has KQ when he barrels into you again?

OMGOMGOMG WE HAZ TO SEE WHERE WE STAND..

Are you implying its better to not know where we are at all?

how are you going to know that
say you raise the flop and he slowplays his set
are you ok with playing for stacks then, since he just called? BUT YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE AT

How are you able to calculate equity without a range? Being we've done nothing but c/c and have no real read other than villain called us pf. I'm curious as to what you guys are putting villain on? Obviously he had 77 but we didn't know that till the hand was over.

If we lead, c/r the flop then we have information depending on what villain does. I shouldn't have to explain that...Unless you all think c/c is good for pot control and wake up on the turn? Either way I still don't see how your able to calculate your equity on the turn either because we still have no idea what type of range villain has.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I think c/c is pretty passive here. IMO TPTK is less valuable in a full ring than a FD. Your goal is to find out where you are so you can play your game accordingly. You thought you were stacking him because you never tested him.

If you were to bet/raise the flop are you really thinking he has KQ when he barrels into you again?

OMGOMGOMG WE HAZ TO SEE WHERE WE STAND..

Are you implying its better to not know where we are at all?

how are you going to know that
say you raise the flop and he slowplays his set
are you ok with playing for stacks then, since he just called? BUT YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE AT

How are you able to calculate equity without a range? Being we've done nothing but c/c and have no real read other than villain called us pf. I'm curious as to what you guys are putting villain on? Obviously he had 77 but we didn't know that till the hand was over.

If we lead, c/r the flop then we have information depending on what villain does. I shouldn't have to explain that...Unless you all think c/c is good for pot control and wake up on the turn? Either way I still don't see how your able to calculate your equity on the turn either because we still have no idea what type of range villain has.

we have a range
do you think villain bets three streets with his entire pf range?

What is his range on the flop being we just c/c?

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Theres a big difference between c/c, c/c, c/shove and value betting a strong hand prepared to give up to aggression.

Thats not the point I'm making though. OP only posted this because he lost. Its a results oriented thread. How do you not go broke? Fold. Answered. The questions he should be asking should be somewhat similar to:

Should I go broke here?
Whats the best line in this hand?
Should I shove river or just call?

Things that actually improve his game and show he's thinking about how to play well. If villain had KQ do you think he'd have posted this thread or questioned whether he should have played it differently?

Thisthisthisthisthis!

This is where reads matter and why c/c without reads is so silly.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

What is his range on the flop being we just c/c?

Board: 7d 5s Ks

Hand 0: 56.985% { AdKh }
Hand 1: 43.015% { 77, 55, AKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, KJs, 86s, 75s, 64s, AKo, KJo+ }

anything I missed?

edit: I guess there are a few more flush draws in his range

Jeez... It never fails.. I, alone, have said the same thing about this "raise for information", "raise to see where we are" thing in at least 10 threads, and many other people have said the same thing.

Just because we check does not mean that villain is going to bet 100% of the time. And even if he does bet 100% of the time on the flop when we check, we are WAYYY ahead of that range. So why would it be a bad thing for us to check, and call if he is betting 100% of his range?

Also, you seem to be thinking about ranges. Well start thinking about subranges also. When we check he obviously has a range of hands. BUT, is he going to be 100% of that range? No. He is going to have subranges. A range of hands he bets the flop for value with. Hands he bets the flop with as a bluff. Hands he checks back for showdown value / pot control, etc. And when we call, on the turn depending on the card, and villain his subranges will change once again. Some of his hands he bet for value is likely to drop into his check behind for pot control line. Some of his bluffs will shut down. Etc...

You don't have to bet/raise/shove to put him on a range of hands. You can also check or call and still get information!

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

What is his range on the flop being we just c/c?

Board: 7d 5s Ks

Hand 0: 56.985% { AdKh }
Hand 1: 43.015% { 77, 55, AKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, KJs, 86s, 75s, 64s, AKo, KJo+ }

anything I missed?

edit: I guess there are a few more flush draws in his range

That's prob his value range (I'm not checking flush draws, etc). But he is obv betting air some % of the time given he is IP. So our equity is even greater than this.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

What is his range on the flop being we just c/c?

Board: 7d 5s Ks

Hand 0: 56.985% { AdKh }
Hand 1: 43.015% { 77, 55, AKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, KJs, 86s, 75s, 64s, AKo, KJo+ }

anything I missed?

edit: I guess there are a few more flush draws in his range

That's prob his value range (I'm not checking flush draws, etc). But he is obv betting air some % of the time given he is IP. So our equity is even greater than this.

yeah I do value/semibluff ranges different from air because they have nothing to do with each other

there's a constant amount of air, but value ranges can be wide or narrow
so if he has very few hands he's repping most of it is air IF he has a lot of air in his range

conversely, a fish has very little air if he bets two streets strongly, while a strong regular still has a lot while they might have the same value ranges in that spot

I may be wrong to think like this but when I approach ranges I think like this. Yes, villain has a range but out of all of the different hands in his range he can only hold one. So I try the best I can to whittle it down as best I can. Also notice that the more hands you remove from villains range the smaller our equity is. The range posted above seems a little wide. Which is why I said if we were involved a little more we could tighten that up. And we also dont have to play for stacks here.

edit: remove sentence "Also notice that the more hands you remove from villains range the smaller our equity is."

Your wrong here.. Yeah, he obviously has a specific hand this time. But, we can't be certain what hand it is. That's why we have to put him on a range, and yes we do narrow it down by the actions. But that doesn't mean we should make incorrect plays just for the sake of narrowing down his range. We should open shove flop just because we know what his range is for calling the shove, amirite?

So instead we take what we know about the player, and form a range. We then make the correct play against that range. Then when a decision is made (such as us checking the flop), and he bets, and we call, we can then narrow his range down more depending on his turn action. He will check behind some hands, and 2 barrel with some. Based on the villain/situation, we can determine what hands he is doing this with, and essentially narrow his range down even more. Yes, he only has one of the hands in his range this time, but since we aren't certain, we have to play against the range of hands he will have here.

Now given the combos of possibly hands he can have, we can determine the frequency with which he has each hand here.

Like with your last reply, you still aren't thinking of subranges. When we check, he bets some hands, checks some hands. It's the same as when we bet, he calls some hands, raises some, and folds some. His entire range for that spot is broke into subranges depending on his/our actions/decisions.

I guess I'm not good enough to be able to check and gain information yet...Do you know of a good article for sub-ranges? I kind of understand them but would like to a whole lot more.

Look in the full ring digest and read "ABCD Theorem" by Renton. That'll help alot.

thanks