An interesting little altercation

BB ($29.83)
UTG ($37.07)
Hero (MP) ($68.51)
Button ($29.14)
SB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.75, Button raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.85) J, 7, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.77, Hero raises to $7, Button calls $4.23

Turn: ($18.85) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $9, Button calls $9

River: ($36.85) J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10.89 (All-In), Hero calls $10.89



Thoughts?

Villain is kind of loose and pretty aggro, plays position reasonably competently, but has spewy tendencies. He expects me to be opening the CO a lot.

My own thoughts: Flatting the preflop 3bet was weak, I should have 4bet him preflop. I wasn't thinking enough and made another preflop mistake that snowballed. I don't absolutely hate just flatting here, since even though I'm OOP it disguises my hand and could lead him to make a big mistake on a K or A high flop with AXs/AQ/AJ/KQ/KJ.

The strength of my hand kind of makes up for flatting OOP, but I still think it was a mistake overall and one I've already told myself I wouldn't make again, so this should serve as a lesson.

I'd already expected to C/R the flop before I ever saw it, when he just flats the C/R I believe he's either chopping, somewhat behind (AQ), or drawing to the flush or straight. More likely the flush, since although he's a bit spewy I don't think he'd flat here with a gutshot.

AJ would reraise all-in, and KJ too. JQ may flat, but that's all I can think of here that's ahead that flats apart from sets. I think he'd fold TT-

When he flats the turn, he's either drawing to the flush without odds, or thinks he's chopping with AK. He'd have shoved a set here I reckon.

To little left behind on the river to fold to an aggressive player like this, who is certainly capable of trying to push me off a chop.

Do you expect to be chopping here?

At first I really hated my play in this hand, but reviewing it later, although preflop was a mistake, I don't actually think postflop is that bad. Knowing his holdings helps make that determination, but I'm interested in alternative opinions without the benefit of knowing his hand.

4 bet pre obviously. rest looks spewy to me. you think hes calling w AQ and flush draws but folding TT when you think he knows you have AK on the riv. why do you think he'd shove a boat on the turn. why do you think he's getting his Js in on the flop. all your reasoning seems skewed to make your aweful play sound like its half good. and your riv line makes no sense if he has loads of As in his range that will try and push you off the chop, you should push to take him off, plus calling with the flush on this riv would be pretty dumb so you could make him fold that too.

I hate this. You are assuming he's double floating you, once when you c/r and on the turn bet with A high.


I don't expect to chop very often tbh.

Originally Posted by bikes

I hate this. You are assuming he's double floating you, once when you c/r and on the turn bet with A high.


I don't expect to chop very often tbh.

I think these are entirely reasonable observations. I'm probably allowing my judgement to be clouded a bit by seeing what he actually had.

what makes you exclude from his range the range of premium hands he's trying to represent?

Originally Posted by rpm

what makes you exclude from his range the range of premium hands he's trying to represent?

His table image and my observations of hands he's shown down recently, my table image, and the dynamic between us.

That said, I am sure it was loose and risky to do so. I was right on this occasion though, but I am wary of allowing that to convince me that it was good play.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

His table image and my observations of hands he's shown down recently, my table image, and the dynamic between us.

all valid observations. my point was that, although he probably is bluffing a resonable % of the time (preflop) he should, and will, still have the premium hands in his range. people don't play so black/white as to be either 100% "bluffing" or 100% "value". it could be as much as 10:1 in favour of bluffs, who knows. but he still has QQ+ in his range.

It may just be the hands you're posting but I think you get too attached when you're in a pot and making -ev decisions when the correct decision is 0ev. This is coming from a guy who make a lot of -ev decisions.

As for this hand, If he's loose and aggro then why not 4bet/ get it in pre?

I'm gonna 4bet shove this pre. As played b/f flop, I can't imagine why you'd call the raise here, AK is obviously losing and he's obviously not folding. Calling river is god awful, if you're intent on getting your last money in then betting must be beter so he can fold out any Ax hands he can have, he might find a fold with a flush on this runout though since the pot is bloated and he beats QQ+ that's debatable.
Villain is likely to make notes on you here, plus the rest of the table, so use your poor image against them to your advantage.

4bet/call to $5.5 - $6 preflop looks good vs this guy from your description of him.

Postflop looks like lighting money on fire.

Shove turn.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Shove turn.

Word. Should'a had the minerals.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

When he flats the turn, he's either drawing to the flush without odds

Given your spew here, it's not a bad turn call on a flush draw.

i would disregard everything fnord has said. it's all very wrong.

below i will bold all of that i challenge or disagree with

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Thoughts?

Villain is kind of loose and pretty aggro, plays position reasonably competently, but has spewy tendencies. He expects me to be opening the CO a lot.

My own thoughts: Flatting the preflop 3bet was weak, I should have 4bet him preflop. I wasn't thinking enough and made another preflop mistake that snowballed. I don't absolutely hate just flatting here, since even though I'm OOP it disguises my hand and could lead him to make a big mistake on a K or A high flop with AXs/AQ/AJ/KQ/KJ.

The strength of my hand kind of makes up for flatting OOP, but I still think it was a mistake overall and one I've already told myself I wouldn't make again, so this should serve as a lesson.

I'd already expected to C/R the flop before I ever saw it, when he just flats the C/R I believe he's either chopping, somewhat behind (AQ), or drawing to the flush or straight. More likely the flush, since although he's a bit spewy I don't think he'd flat here with a gutshot.

AJ would reraise all-in, and KJ too. JQ may flat, but that's all I can think of here that's ahead that flats apart from sets. I think he'd fold TT-

When he flats the turn, he's either drawing to the flush without odds, or thinks he's chopping with AK. He'd have shoved a set here I reckon.

To little left behind on the river to fold to an aggressive player like this, who is certainly capable of trying to push me off a chop.

Do you expect to be chopping here?

At first I really hated my play in this hand, but reviewing it later, although preflop was a mistake, I don't actually think postflop is that bad. Knowing his holdings helps make that determination, but I'm interested in alternative opinions without the benefit of knowing his hand.

you picked a very poor line that doesn't make any sense based on an awful assessment of hand ranges.

Yeah, the hand is total spew.

That said, if you're gonna spew just go ahead and shove the turn. You probably have outs if called and just get in the last word for about pot.

If the dynamic between two players has gotten extremely aggressive and distrustful, expecting anyone to fold a flush draw is pretty silly.

Originally Posted by aka_red

i would disregard everything fnord has said. it's all very wrong.

On the contrary, Fnord nailed it, and you are very wrong.

Ps. it's still spew.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

On the contrary, Fnord nailed it, and you are very wrong.

i'd wait until you are beating mid-high stakes online no limit before you start telling people who beat mid-high stakes online no limit that they are wrong about no limit.

edit: ok this comes across harsher than intended. my point was that OP should be grateful that any high-stakes player bothers to give him advice and react accordingly. even if the advice was that he butchered every decision in this hand except for the preflop raise

Be nice.

To be fair, red probably beats far tougher games than I play in.

totally disagree that shoving turn is ever going to be good. and that is definitely not the way to try and salvage this hand. it just happens to be marginally better than what he did. but still very -EV.

Originally Posted by aka_red

totally disagree that shoving turn is ever going to be good.

Against stronger players who spend hours thinking critically about the game, probably not.

Weaker players will peel the flop raise with a whole lot of hands they're dumping on the turn. Heck, they might even talk themselves into a laydown when confronted with the final big bet.

I've certainly pulled the trigger in worse spots...

Originally Posted by Fnord

I've certainly pulled the trigger in worse spots...

My sincere thanks to the only poster in this thread who saw this coming.

I think a turn shove is probably fine if villain is loose/peely and obviously pretty terrible, way better then what we did here and very potentially +eV, at worse just makes us look crazy.

Agreed. If we're trying to push him off a draw, we can't just price him out, we have to _push_ him out.