June BC Graphs

Sup guys, guess I'll make this one too since I'm awake and its July where I'm at.

All 10nl FR and last 200 or so is 25nl (moving up weeeeeeeewwwwwwww!!!) Did this the last two days of June lol. 15 tabling 10 FR and 8 tabling 25nl.



Also, hit silverstar for the first time in like a year lol. ROCKIN THE STARS BABY!!!

Oh yea, heaters are fun.

Nice redlining D-Ranger! (or greenlining wtf?)




50NL FR - $425
Donking 10NL rush one night - $30
Some $6.50 SNG's - $75
Stellar Bonus - $50

Month = $580

I'm back to grinding on my mac and the HUD I use on it is Poker Copilot and thats the color the designer decided to make it lol.

Yea, interestingly, I cbet a lot less than I normally do and started 3betting more aggressively IP. Not spewing postflop ftw!

[x] Running 5.05BB/100 at 5nl is retarded
[x] FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu
[x] needed to put several checkboxes before graph

How long til move up Penney?

Edit: Good to see you have a good month finally kmind. Keep it goin!

[x] Played bad taking shots at NL25
[x] First month playing poker in nearly a year

+$950 Live
+$55 Rakeback
+$100 ish Donkaments

I moved to cash games 6/15, so I started the graph at that point. I'm still learning a lot. With as much as I keep learning about how poorly I've been playing, I'm kind of surprised I'm not losing my shirt.

Ohai guyszszsz!!! Can you guess where I moved up to 25NL

You need to work on that blueline yo.

Originally Posted by dranger7070

How long til move up Penney?

Edit: Good to see you have a good month finally kmind. Keep it goin!

Thanksssss past 3 months = first 3 positive months in awhile. This was also the second month in 1.5yrs at running above EV so that was cool. 6k hands though . Added some HUSNG money on top of that but also minus $38 in Gauntlet moniez

I honestly think you'll be at 100NL soon if you stay focused and get hands in.

Thanks for the vote of confidence dude. I'd like to see you run your way back up the stakes again. You had a pretty ugly run. :/

+$26 at 10NL.
+$18 in the FTR freeroll.
+$10 for stellar bonus.
-$6 playing some SNG's.

MOAR volume needed!

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

+$26 at 10NL.
+$18 in the FTR freeroll.
+$10 for stellar bonus.
-$6 playing some SNG's.

MOAR volume needed!

Yuck @ your red line, you playing 6m or FR

I get the feeling that if we zoomed in on any part of hoopy's graph, it would still look the same, like one of those fractal music video thingies. Nah mean?

Pretty trippy, hoopy.

Originally Posted by dranger7070

How long til move up Penney?

Honestly, I've been pretty demoralized over these last BE stretches, and I'm not generally feeling very good about my game. I've done a whole bunch of statistical analysis (PT3's awesome) and found many (over 12 actually) potential leaks in my game:

- Flatting bets in the blinds w/ SCs far too often
- Lowish AF
- Losing money on hands like AKo, AJs
- Not playing aggressively enough from the BTN, CO
- Playing too many hands from the SB
- In heads-up pots postflop, I am hemorrhaging money in situations where I was not the preflop aggressor
etc etc.

I spent a great deal of time going through each one of these and am, hopefully, taking steps towards rooting out some of these. Not all of them can be "fixed" through simple adjustments though.

And, of course, this is all in addition to hand analysis that I typically do on a daily basis, which I really need to focus on even further because I seem to have trouble understanding opponent's lines and putting them on accurate ranges when deep in a hand.

TL;DR:

Meh, about a month. Whenever I'm ready and feeling good about my game.

2nl + 5nl. Struggling through 10nl atm, but probably wont get to 25nl till late august cuz of a long july holiday get together thing.

Also

Prop bets: +$5 :P

PLO: +$4

sexy redline jkds

Originally Posted by amifat

Yuck @ your red line, you playing 6m or FR

6m though I might change in the future.

Not that bothered about the red line really - I'm trying to up my ATS and 3 bet more often vs steals + some other things, but really I'm just trying to find leaks and not worry about my graph too much atm.

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

sexy winrate jkds

fyp


Just started playing again after taking a short break from poker to finish school. My game is finally coming around and I think next month will be good. I'll be able to put in more volume too

Hey FTR,

I logged into my FT account around June 15th and realized if I wanted the mid-year bonus from Ironman, I had to make Ironman on June. So I bought a day and the played the rest of the month. I hadn't played in a month and a half or so, ever since I trainwrecked at 50NL about 10k hands after moving up, running like $600 under EV and all sorts of shit. So I've been rebuilding this month, I did manage to make Bronze Ironman, so I got a $175 bonus I have to clear. I also ran well towards the end of the month to finish on a good note. I'm playing good, also less tables towards the end and I'm going to keep it that way: 6-9 tables instead of 10-12 I was doing before.



25 NL = $352
RB = $105

Total: $457

And now 50NL take two.

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

sexy redline jkds

i am always confused by the red lines in these BC graphs

lol daven mine was pretty funny last month, but even m2m said after playing 10nl 6m for a while that a lot of someone's winrate is going to come from NSD winnings now since the games are lot more TAG filled. They all suck at postflop though, so its like printing money if you can find the right spots to be aggro, and the right spots to just give up the pot before you commit too much.

FR is a different story obviously, its still easy enough to just value bet and fold to any aggression postflop (thats what I did in my graph this month). I cut back on cbetting, and increased my 3betting IP. Makes maintaining the redline soso ez.

Like pulling. fucking. teeth.

Ran bad, played bad, then did both simultaneously.

Tried to play too many days (not hands) to chase pointless bonus qualification for next month. Playing when not in the mood sucks. Won't be doing that again.



+$70 RB.

FAIL.

Originally Posted by dranger7070

lol daven mine was pretty funny last month, but even m2m said after playing 10nl 6m for a while that a lot of someone's winrate is going to come from NSD winnings now since the games are lot more TAG filled. They all suck at postflop though, so its like printing money if you can find the right spots to be aggro, and the right spots to just give up the pot before you commit too much.

FR is a different story obviously, its still easy enough to just value bet and fold to any aggression postflop (thats what I did in my graph this month). I cut back on cbetting, and increased my 3betting IP. Makes maintaining the redline soso ez.

My graph looks alot like Hoopy's, especially the redline except I'm -$17.00 for the month at FR. Pretty frustrating but at least I'm still at 25NL. I've been calling minbets on Axxx boards or Kxxx boards with middle pairs and then villian shoves turn so I fold. Also calling minbets with AKs or AKo with undercard rainbow boards and then folding turn when I don't hit. I assume this is afecting my redline too. I'm also probably cbetting to much and giving up on the turn.

I don't understand why people look at or care about their red line. The only one that matters is the profit GREEN line. If you could have a steady upwards red line that peaks @ $40 and a steady blue line that peaks @ $60 giving you $100, would you pick that over a $300 blue line and -$100 red line that give you $200? Make the most money however you can make money whether that's by getting to showdown or not.

If someone can clearly prove why having a good redline is needed to do that, I'm all ears. The blue line is EQUALLY as important as the red line but I never hear anyone critiquing that their blue line is underperformed. It's always the red line because that's the one that's most visible and usually negative and difficult to get positive.

how about a blue line @300 and a red line @100? Anything positive is better than negative... Why would you not want to critique your weaknesses?

So does a negative sloping redine indicate a leak/weakness?

Originally Posted by Jason

I don't understand why people look at or care about their red line. The only one that matters is the profit GREEN line. If you could have a steady upwards red line that peaks @ $40 and a steady blue line that peaks @ $60 giving you $100, would you pick that over a $300 blue line and -$100 red line that give you $200? Make the most money however you can make money whether that's by getting to showdown or not.

If someone can clearly prove why having a good redline is needed to do that, I'm all ears. The blue line is EQUALLY as important as the red line but I never hear anyone critiquing that their blue line is underperformed. It's always the red line because that's the one that's most visible and usually negative and difficult to get positive.

This is pretty naive if you ask me. People care about their redline because it affects their green line. The whole point of poker is to win as much as possible and saying to forget entirely about redline is like saying to not play optimally. Also, in response to your second point, the reason people don't say anything about blue lines is because it is so much more concrete. You either win with the best hand or you lose when you don't have the best one. Blue line is far easier to control and I agree that a lot of focus during the micro stakes should be on having a positive blue line.

To say that redline doesn't matter, is just foolish though. The game is evolving and there are more nitty players than even before so why not take advantage of that? Why not be one of the few to make the adjustment and ALSO make money with the red line. Yes, the two lines are kind of inversely related but this doesn't always have to be the case. If you are truly better than people you are playing then there is no reason for your redline to cancel out over a 1/3 of your winnings for the month. Sure it may not seem like much at the micro stakes but if you are winning 10K a month in blue line and losing 8K in redline (something I see ALL the time in 2+2 grinder's graphs) then you do have a leak.

Of course this is not me advocating bluffing all the time either, I'm just saying that it is definitely worth it to learn to analyze flop texture and player tendencies to level out your redline to some extent. Hell, in FR and even 6m you don't have to have a positive redline while playing ABC poker but if you can even get it to be a less steep downward trend then you can save yourself a lot of money in the long run.

As I said, it's all part of the adjustments that everyone has to make in an ever evolving game and the current state of the game is to nit it up hardcore. So make a small adjustment and crush. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by bhaley66

how about a blue line @300 and a red line @100? Anything positive is better than negative... Why would you not want to critique your weaknesses?

Because it's shortsighted and the dynamics that create those lines are very complicated and it's not a simple matter of "fixing" the red line and the blue line will just stay put.

If you view Episode 8 of "The Haj School" video from Deuces Cracked, @ 21:34 WiltOnTilt talks about the red line phenomenon and concludes @ 34:37 devoting a full 13 minutes to the topic. A cliff's notes version of his points:

- Most people assume it's for bluffing and they should bluff more and steal more pots, but there are many other reasons.
- Your red line COULD be "good" because you're a calling station.
- You could be FOLDING too much and your red line could be "bad".
- You could be playing correctly against certain opponents and your red line could be "bad" even though you were making the correct plays.
- The thinner you value bet, the "better" your red line might be.
- The more you take pot control lines the more you "hurt" your red line.
- "There are lots of reasons why your red line might be negative."
"Get out of the frame of mind that you just need to steal more pots to make it better."
"Try to avoid fixing any stat ... [try to avoid] fixing your red line."
"Don't play your hand in a way that will make your red line pretty to look at."
"Make the optimal play for each table condition."
- He likes to use an example with his students where a while back when he first played, he once tried to "fix" his "went to showdown" percentage and he "succeeded" but his winnings suffered.

Obviously if you can make a sweeping adjustment to your game so that you increase both blue and red lines, then go for it. I just think that the MAIN line is the green one and the red line receives much more attention than it should and the blue line is equally important and neither are more important than the green. And nothing can be fixed from looking at graphs. You need hand histories, detailed analysis, self reflection, coaching, and many other things. Granted, graphs are interesting to post and look at, but I think we should avoid the mindset that our red line needs to look and feel a certain way and trying to "fix" it accordingly.

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

So does a negative sloping red line indicate a leak/weakness?

By itself, no. But a player with a leak/weakness could have a bad red line for that reason. Also, a player could have a "good" red line and also have leaks that could be fixed that give them a "worse" red line and better green line. It's very player dependent and complicated.

My redline is prolly the main reason I'm running B/E right now.Not cbetting enough or stealing blinds enough,which my redline is down about the same amount I payed into the blinds.So yeah,redline is important imo.

Originally Posted by supahaole

My redline is prolly the main reason I'm running B/E right now.Not cbetting enough or stealing blinds enough,which my redline is down about the same amount I payed into the blinds.So yeah,redline is important imo.

If you're breakeven at 2nl it's probably because of your blue line, or maniac spew drops your redline like a bungy jumper (probably the first one). You're probably not getting in enough volume to be sure you're breakeven or you're not getting enough value from your made hands.

I'm not advocating that you not work on your game. You should ALWAYS work on your game. I'm just not sure how you can do that from looking at your red line or blue line because of the complexity of what goes into it. I disagree that the blue line is as cut and dry as that. Your playing style and image has a big effect on that. You could consistently be hand reading and going for thin value and folding out worse hands and help your red line and hurt your blue line. You could have a very nitty image and people are folding sets to you so your blue line is awful. There's so much that goes into BOTH, not just the red line. My philosophy and what I advocate to others is to work on your game by analysis @ the tables, off the tables, studying, coaching, reviewing hand histories, and all those types of things and always trying to make the single best DECISION and let the stats and graphs fall wherever they may.

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

If you're breakeven at 2nl it's probably because of your blue line, or maniac spew drops your redline like a bungy jumper (probably the first one). You're probably not getting in enough volume to be sure you're breakeven or you're not getting enough value from your made hands.

All of this is defo true.I have alot of areas that I need to work on and a crappy case of run bad(ie:AA vs 72o allin pre with a 227 flop) has put a big dent in my winrate.However,I started running PT3 3 weeks ago and went to a no frills style of poker,no cbetting,no blind stealing,no bluffing.

I did this so I could have a baseline of "ABC poker" and as I learn more I'm adding in new(or old) concepts.I'm beginning to cbet and steal blinds a little more at times that I feel appropriate and my redline is starting to even out.

Originally Posted by Jason

I'm not advocating that you not work on your game. You should ALWAYS work on your game. I'm just not sure how you can do that from looking at your red line or blue line because of the complexity of what goes into it. I disagree that the blue line is as cut and dry as that. Your playing style and image has a big effect on that. You could consistently be hand reading and going for thin value and folding out worse hands and help your red line and hurt your blue line. You could have a very nitty image and people are folding sets to you so your blue line is awful. There's so much that goes into BOTH, not just the red line. My philosophy and what I advocate to others is to work on your game by analysis @ the tables, off the tables, studying, coaching, reviewing hand histories, and all those types of things and always trying to make the single best DECISION and let the stats and graphs fall wherever they may.

Obviously, all I am saying is that the only graphs I have ever seen (and i've seen quite a few) where the redline and blue line go in 100% opposite directions are those who are content to be minimally winning rakeback grinders. The only point I am trying to make is that in the long run, there is no reason to lose 80% of your profits to non-showdown if you are playing well. I can see losing maybe 30% or even up to 50% if you are a pretty nitty straight forward player, but having an unvarying redline that takes a path straight to the cellar and never deviates upwards undeniably shows that you are giving up value extremely often.

If you study, put in volume, and play well your redline WILL stop being such a steep downward trend. To put it in equation form.

y = mx+b would be a linear increase or a line that kind of resembles /
y = -mx+b is a linear decrease or a line that resembles \
obviously the larger that m is the steeper the slope of the line and the more optimally you play in the long run I think it is certainly possible to reduce the size of -m to make the slope of the redline much more gradual while still keeping the extreme upward trend of the blue line.

Agree with Jason.

If you start calling down more post flop then naturally you'll be folding less (helping red line) but you're going to showdown with a weaker range (lose more at showdown, making blue line worse).

Changing the red line does not necessarily mean your blue line stays the same. Its not as simple as "oh look my redline is negative so if I make it less negative/make it positive I'll make more money!!"

Correct?

I lose less money without SD by: (other than what Dranger said)

-Not bloating pots that I'll fold on a later street (cbet/check/fold)
-Calling less and betting/raising more(b/f > c/c)
-Folding a decent hand for one small bet (I think Fnord mentioned this somewhere)
-etc.

If you aim to 'fix' one of your lines, the line you choose to 'fix' will get worse. If you just aim to get better at poker and improve your thought process, all lines will benefit.

So will doing what I said make me better, even if it doesn't fix a line?

There's an interesting semi-recent post, *CotW: The Last Red Line Post Ever*, that discusses the red line and some real playing concepts to consider while you're at the tables or reflecting. One interesting point is that the blinds appear to have a major roll in the overall value of the red line.

I personally think the red line is more of a function of your playing style and table selection than it is directly attributable to leaks. I think you'd be hard pressed at any level to spend any time caring what it looks like, let alone the micros where GENERALLY taking donkeys to value town is the hallmark of winning and NOT trying to get players to fold. Here's a graph of someone who "fixed" their red line:



Notice where the blue line went. Maybe for THIS player it was the right move to help the green line and complements his or her style, or maybe they would have been better off doing something that skyrocketed the blue line and left the red line in the dust. Again, it's complicated and no generalities apply.

I think a LOT of successful players with decent win-rates have badly down-sloped red lines. I haven't looked at my red line in a good while, but I'm pretty sure I'm one of them. The reason is I play a style some might consider laggy for winning FR play plus I table select like a language so I'm always trying to get on tables with a couple of calling stations, a maniac, and some random who just deposited for the first time. I don't want to fold these players out and make my red line look pretty. I want play speculative hands in position, FOLD when I miss, and get their stack when I don't -> red line down, blue line WAY up, and green line very nice

If I sat with a bunch of nitty regs all day, I'd probably spend a lot more time trying to steal and being an aggressive bully when the situation was favorable and have a prettier red line to show for, but less profits, too, I would imagine.

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

-Not bloating pots that I'll fold on a later street (cbet/check/fold)

You can't look into your crystal ball and know when you'll fold on a later street. If you knew you were going to fold a hand, just do it pre-flop But, knowing generally what pots need to be bloated pre-flop and which ones don't is a good start. Typically weaker players you should try to keep the pot smaller if you think you can make it bigger whenever you want with the obvious exception being AA/KK if they will call you. I like to bloat pots with big hands where I can and create an optima stack to pot ratio but keep it smaller if it's multi-way with smaller pocket pairs and suited connectors - especially if I'm out of position.

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

-Calling less and betting/raising more(b/f > c/c)

Generally true because you will fold out more villain hands and thus win without a showdown. But, would you want to do that against a 50% VPIP 45% SD who keeps betting into you and you have a set?

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

-Folding a decent hand for one small bet (I think Fnord mentioned this somewhere)

Technically, folding won't help either red or blue line since you can't win but I think if you're folding too much in general, your red line will suffer.

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us

Ran decent until the last week. Probably because I am experimenting with transitioning into LAG play. You can probably tell where by the red line.

Ran just under 3PTBB 24-tabling 25NL for the month.

Cash winnings: $1,195.60
SNG/MTT winnings: $0
Rakeback: $253.58 FPP value (7,924.38VPPs * 2.0 FPPs/VPP * 1.6c/FPP)
Stellar Rewards- $50x2= $100
Hours played|$/hr: 62.08| $24.95/hr
-------------------------------------------------------
$1,549.18 profit

Lol redline arguments. Just have a //// blue line and break even redline like me. LDFO

players gotta hat

Originally Posted by supahaole

My redline is prolly the main reason I'm running B/E right now.Not cbetting enough or stealing blinds enough,which my redline is down about the same amount I payed into the blinds.So yeah,redline is important imo.

wtf

Originally Posted by daven

wtf

expand???

Not to get too far off on a tangent, but I started from scratch @ Full Tilt @ 100NL FR and managed 8.27bb/100 or 4.14ptBB/100 over 36k hands and even though I don't usually look @ my red line, I decided to take a look at the total red line plus the red line with and without the blinds. I'm not sure what I or others could glean from it, but there it is ...

Apparently I'm one of those lowly steeping downward red lines

Originally Posted by supahaole

expand???

Yeah I guess I should post my graph (aka freaking downswing) as well.

LOL I just read the previous posts. I hope my graph doesn't spur anymore arguments about redlines. "Look at xpaand! His redline is positive and look how he did in June!"

Originally Posted by xpaand

LOL I just read the previous posts. I hope my graph doesn't spur anymore arguments about redlines. "Look at xpaand! His redline is positive and look how he did in June!"

spew often helps the redline

Originally Posted by supahaole

expand???

your redline isn't the reason you are breakeven
red and green and blue and purple lines are simply consequences of your play
your play is the reason you are breakeven

the lines may, and only may, indicate areas you need to work on - however a hugely -ve redline may be a result of many different types of leak. Also, search out deanglow's graph over a large sample (somewhere in the Full Ring forum), look at his consistently downward sloping red line, and look at his solidly upward trending net winnings.

1) you are a showdown monkey station (never fold = don't lose too much in non-showdown spots)
2) you play too wide a range pre-flop too passively, and then too fit-or-fold post-flop
3) you bet too big with a plan to give up vs any resistance

etc...