KK versus super tight player

Ok we have a 100bb stack and raise 4xbb in ep with KK. A nit who only 3-bets aces and kings shoves. Do we call or fold ?

No such players exist.

well if we know he only 3 bets aces and kings, why would we call?

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

Originally Posted by JinxT4

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by JinxT4

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by JinxT4

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play

what makes you so certain he only 3bets KK/AA then? i'm interested in how you've come to this conclusion about his playing style

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by JinxT4

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play

what makes you so certain he only 3bets KK/AA then? i'm interested in how you've come to this conclusion about his playing style

well a 3-bet percentage of <1 for starters

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by JinxT4

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play

what makes you so certain he only 3bets KK/AA then? i'm interested in how you've come to this conclusion about his playing style

well a 3-bet percentage of <1 for starters

he might still 3b QQ+ and just not get that many high pairs over the however many hundred hands you have on him

for this stat to be accurate, you probably need at least 2K hands with him 3betting less than half of a percent

First of all, Quit fking quoting each other 1000 tymes.

Second of all, According to my latest QandA thread, sure you can fold KK preflop.

NOT. Don't fold, go AI You are chopping or loosing plenty. I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but do it. I'm sure others will chime in and give you good solid reasoning, but trust me.

super easy fold given that he definitly has KK+.

Its not a very likely situation though. A far more likely situation is a nit who probably 3 bets more than AA/KK 3 betting to say 12bb and then 5bet shoving when he almost certainly has KK+. At this point we are getting massive pot odds and we still arent 100% sure he has KK+ so it usually becomes a call.

Originally Posted by littleogre

Ok we have a 100bb stack and raise 4xbb in ep with KK. A nit who only 3-bets aces and kings shoves. Do we call or fold ?

Hand 0: 22.618% 15.59% 07.03% 11209632 5056266.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 77.382% 70.35% 07.03% 50594604 5056266.00 { KK+ }


Pot is 105.5 bbs and it's 96 to call. We need 3:1. Fold.

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by AFchung

Originally Posted by JinxT4

Originally Posted by iopq

No such players exist.

Pretty sure this is false.

maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play

Crucial point. Stupid stat huds.

Originally Posted by AFchung

unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe

You don't need anywhere close to 50k hands. A few k hands should be enough to get a somewhat decent 3b%.

what is the beginner's forum coming to?

OP, why did you ask this question, when the answer is painfully obvious. If he has either AA/KK and you kill 5/6 KK combinations it looks pretty much like the easiest fold ever.

Holy shit. This is DEFF. the first time I've EVER! seen FTR BC say fold KK preflop at the micro's EVER, even when others say "omfg this guy is a super nit, can I fold?" All you hear is "OMFG NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"

this is pretty ground breaking to me.

I can't freaking believe I'm the first one.

What's the sample size?
What do these stats mean over a sample of 10, 100, 1k hands?
How has he been playing at this table so far. What was the last hand he was involved in?

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Holy shit. This is DEFF. the first time I've EVER! seen FTR BC say fold KK preflop at the micro's EVER, even when others say "omfg this guy is a super nit, can I fold?" All you hear is "OMFG NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"

this is pretty ground breaking to me.

lol that's not what anyone said at all

everyone is saying, if you have KK and you know he has KK+, you should fold.

however, since you never can know, don't fold KK when someone shoves at the micros.

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Holy shit. This is DEFF. the first time I've EVER! seen FTR BC say fold KK preflop at the micro's EVER, even when others say "omfg this guy is a super nit, can I fold?" All you hear is "OMFG NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"

this is pretty ground breaking to me.

lol that's not what anyone said at all

everyone is saying, if you have KK and you know he has KK+, you should fold.

however, since you never can know, don't fold KK when someone shoves at the micros.

So... I said that everyone said you should NEVER fold KK preflop. And you said "that's not what they said at all"
Then you said you should NEVER fold KK preflop.

I"m most deff. confused here. EDIT: Actually, I'm not. Everyone(before this thread) said you should NEVER fold KK pre, and then you said you should NEVER fold KK pre. I'm track'n.

Originally Posted by Pelion

super easy fold given that he definitly has KK+.

Its not a very likely situation though. A far more likely situation is a nit who probably 3 bets more than AA/KK 3 betting to say 12bb and then 5bet shoving when he almost certainly has KK+. At this point we are getting massive pot odds and we still arent 100% sure he has KK+ so it usually becomes a call.

Originally Posted by oskar

I can't freaking believe I'm the first one.

What's the sample size?
What do these stats mean over a sample of 10, 100, 1k hands?
How has he been playing at this table so far. What was the last hand he was involved in?

There are no stats. We have a magic hat and know he has KK+.

Oh, ok.
I did not know that.

Anyway. Still... good exercise to figure out at which sample size you can say with some confidence that he's only 3-betting AA, KK. The two crucial factors are: how often does one get AA or KK, and how often does he get a chance to 3-bet them. - The second part is trickier - maybe PT can help, otherwise just count it out. Consider position.

And people say I make fucked up threads.

Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.

lol wtf is this...

lets talk about redzill4's post: i think id beat the shit out of her, and have fun. thoughts?

i love hitting women

He's got AA, I still ship. I run hot. If he's got KK I'll make flush, come on guys where's ur in gamb00l.

Hitting women is only sexy when you're Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by oskar

I can't freaking believe I'm the first one.

What's the sample size?
What do these stats mean over a sample of 10, 100, 1k hands?
How has he been playing at this table so far. What was the last hand he was involved in?

There are no stats. We have a magic hat and know he has KK+.

i guess you have never heard of poker tracker or hem. they do this amazing thing that lets you know how often a player 3 bets preflop. Word of advise if you go with pt be sure to get pt3.

oh and to fold kk pf i would need atlesst 1k hands on a player then my KK would have to be behind his 3-betting range

this is kinda off subject but at micro stakes i'm not sure that we aren't better of just shoving with kings versus a raise. villans that raise pf will cal our shove with such a wide range.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

And people say I make fucked up threads.

Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.

i already know how i was just curious what kinda answers i would get. Judging by the replies we have a couple people here that do not know how to use pokerstove nor have they ever heard of pt3 or hem

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

And people say I make fucked up threads.

Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.

i already know how i was just curious what kinda answers i would get. Judging by the replies we have a couple people here that do not know how to use pokerstove nor have they ever heard of pt3 or hem

What's really retarded about this scenario, is that it's true if villain range was DEFFINATELY KK+ It's LOL ezfold er w/e, but none of the regs that usually say don't fold KK pre, haven't tried to explain to the beginners here in the forum that villains range at micro's ISN'T KK+. Maybe they have changed their opinions of late. So Basicly by NOT mentioning anything about villains ACTUAL range at the micro's, then it's ok to fold KK pre to a super tight player according to Spenda,Spoon, and w/e other regs said to fold.

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

And people say I make fucked up threads.

Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.

i already know how i was just curious what kinda answers i would get. Judging by the replies we have a couple people here that do not know how to use pokerstove nor have they ever heard of pt3 or hem

What's really retarded about this scenario, is that it's true if villain range was DEFFINATELY KK+ It's LOL ezfold er w/e, but none of the regs that usually say don't fold KK pre, haven't tried to explain to the beginners here in the forum that villains range at micro's ISN'T KK+. Maybe they have changed their opinions of late. So Basicly by NOT mentioning anything about villains ACTUAL range at the micro's, then it's ok to fold KK pre to a super tight player according to Spenda,Spoon, and w/e other regs said to fold.

i have 2534 hands on one paticular villan his preflop 3bet % is less then 1

I don't get the problem here.

If it's obvious he has KK+ then fold. If not, ship it!

i must say i'm shocked that this topic is still going.

I'm shocked at how bad the topic was.

Mcat Theorem Strikes Again!!!

Mcat theorum?

in before wat

fold

The answer is to push all in

because we're never supposed to fold King's pre

Even if we know for a fact he holds either King's or Aces

This post makes total sense

take you r pants off

this post had atleast 2 people that said call so they got knowledge if nothing else

oh jesus. pokerstove is a free program.

thread is fine, noob bashing isn't. Obv just higher stakes players running bad.

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

So Basicly by NOT mentioning anything about villains ACTUAL range at the micro's, then it's ok to fold KK pre to a super tight player according to Spenda,Spoon, and w/e other regs said to fold.

just stop please. you are putting words in ppl's mouths. i dunno how you think that ppl saying to fold KK in the OP's scenario = fold KK preflop to tight players at micros always. i'm pretty sure no one else in this thread came to that conclusion so just stop. this really isn't that complicated.

Originally Posted by littleogre

i guess you have never heard of poker tracker or hem. they do this amazing thing that lets you know how often a player 3 bets preflop. Word of advise if you go with pt be sure to get pt3.

I have pokertracker

I'd never fold KK pf, just consider how many donks move in with TT+ or even AQ/AK. At some tables it is often very profitable to just push yourself with the kings or aces if there has been a raise before you. I once got called AI pf by three players, QQ, 77 and AQs. Of course the guy with 77 sucked out and flopped quads, but that's not the point here...
About his stats, how can one possibly know exactly which hands someone goes all in preflop with? Which program do you use?

Originally Posted by Jovar

I'd never fold KK pf, just consider how many donks move in with TT+ or even AQ/AK. At some tables it is often very profitable to just push yourself with the kings or aces if there has been a raise before you. I once got called AI pf by three players, QQ, 77 and AQs. Of course the guy with 77 sucked out and flopped quads, but that's not the point here...
About his stats, how can one possibly know exactly which hands someone goes all in preflop with? Which program do you use?

Re-read the OP, then read everyone else's comments, and I hope you change your mind here.

I don't think there's anything left to add here.

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