The leap from 5nl to 10nl

So i just decided to 'take a shot' at 10nl.

thought i'd just do one table and focus on it. Thing is, the first noticable difference is that everyone is suddenly tight. So it wasn't long before a second table was opened.... then a third.

Tight, tight and tight was my first impression. People suddenly played with some sense of cunning.

In 500 or so hands i saw one, maybe two fish in about 24 players.

I could not get away with cbetting a missed flop, either got raised or check-raised. Limping was almost impossible. The average VPIP was around 20. Mine used to be about 25/12 at 5nl and was now around 10/10.

Plus when you hit, everyone folds.

So my point is, people kept saying 10 was a lot like 5... it isn't thus far and i'm really not sure how i'm going to beat it for much. I finished on top though with like $4 and about 6BB/100 so it's not as though i got creamed, but man things sloooow down a lot. I miss the fish

I guess i'm going to have to beat on the tight players *shrug*

This thread is so off base. First off, I've played 10nl relatively recently. I staked my dad and have been coaching him, and he is currently at 10nl, and I spend some time on the weekends sweating him, and sometimes even playing 10nl myself so he can sweat me. So, my assumptions aren't going to be totally off-base, and a "you don't know what the micros are like anymore" is going to be incorrect.

Originally Posted by wonderland

In 500 or so hands i saw one, maybe two fish in about 24 players.

The only way this is correct is if you happened to find a table full of solid 1/2, 2/4 regs that decided to go sit at 10nl and play serious. And I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Maybe the players aren't your typical 5nl shove and pray fish, but trust me the majority of the tables are still pretty fishy. And the players that you would consider good still have considerable leaks that can be exploited.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Mine used to be about 25/12 at 5nl and was now around 10/10.

I'm not sure if your playing FR or 6m first off. However, if this is FR, then the problem likely isn't the other players are good. It would be that your likely playing bad.

Even if it isn't FR, you are likely making a shitload of mistakes. Which might sound harsh, but it's okay. I make a shitload of mistakes as well. You just have to continue to study and improve.

Remember, the better you get, the more people that are fish to you. When you can start to spot leaks in the players that you view as good, then you can learn to exploit those leaks. Then they no longer seem as solid.

Also, unless 10nl is playing better than 200nl nowadays, you will run into a shitload of fish. At 200nl, I still have people shoving ATC preflop, limp/calling, calling with Bottom Pair, etc. So if they are this bad at 200nl, it stands to reason they are worse at 10nl.

Originally Posted by wonderland

I could not get away with cbetting a missed flop

Originally Posted by wonderland

Plus when you hit, everyone folds.

Both can't be true, do you see why?

Nice thread...should get me prepped for my leap

Just don't forget that poker is long term, and 1k hands isn't a great sample for anything.

well, thanks for the headsup stacks. I just need a few people to give me their experiece of 10nl particularly in relation to 5nl. Also, glad you played 10nl recently coz like you say, i might have made that point had you not pre-disarmed me.

Like i say, i found one or two things like someone felting an A high board with A8s and no flush potential. Fine. And i two barrelled someone with AJs having totally missed and they turned over 45s and had ALSO totally missed. But most of the time it was people swapping blinds.

Oh, it's 6max btw.

I'm playing a reasonable game these days, nothing massively solid, just a little 'moving up tightness' in my stats like the 10/10 which will open up as i get more confident. Always trying to play in position, starting to get into 3betting, starting to increase my aggression and also getting reasonable reads on players. I mean i'm by no means losing but i'd love to be killing, so when i complain it's because i want more solid play rather than because i'm spewing into a wilting graph. But it's all relative, you guys would undoubtedly find big holes in my game that i wouldn't have been seeing.

I guess i wanted to take my 5nl strategy into 10nl but just add x percent for the new tighter players but i think i'm really going to have to get stuck into some theorem.

I mean, an instructor somewhere once said that players rarely bluff raise, like RARELY. I had a couple today, action on the flop, get raised with air and then check down to the river, both turn over air but my air is better. Mad. I just didn't expect tricky plays, thought people would play a bit more fit or fold.

Well, maybe it was just a tough first time.

You're seriously playing 10/10 at 6max?

you should be like 18/15 if you're playing tight in 6m

just a bit of variance and a little careful play. Was getting no cards and people 3bet more.

Infact, let's look at PT. I averaged out at: 15/8 actually, but one table i was at about 10/10 and i've never played like that before.

Like i say, once i get used to 10 i'll probably be around 20/12. Or more.

How often are you limping? Or calling? I would suspect both are likely more than you should be.

3bets are either the nuts, a maniac, or if they have position on you switch tables

stacks.

Limp very rarely. Call... a little. Like if i raise with AQ and i'm 3bet i'll call. I do admit that i was starting to 3bet hands like AK at 5nl but just not quite got the balls at taking my first ever shot at 10. This is a glitch that will go away very soon. Don't have many reads yet etc. Lots of new players.

Worst player was this guy who would check the flop OOP then i'd cbet and the fucker would check raise me. I just thought people wouldn't do that, it's almost slow playing to check a hit flop unless you know very well that the villain will fire to try and push you off coz they're a 50/40 lag tard.

check/raising flops is super standard vs. cbet bots

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by wonderland

I could not get away with cbetting a missed flop

Originally Posted by wonderland

Plus when you hit, everyone folds.

Both can't be true, do you see why?

Yes they could, they probably aren't but it could be the case that every flop he missed and cbet someone raised or called and every flop he hit and cbet everyone folded.

(yep, what he said)

You should be aiming to get vpip/pfr closer to each other than 20/12 or 15/8 btw

Originally Posted by Parasurama

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by wonderland

I could not get away with cbetting a missed flop

Originally Posted by wonderland

Plus when you hit, everyone folds.

Both can't be true, do you see why?

Yes they could, they probably aren't but it could be the case that every flop he missed and cbet someone raised or called and every flop he hit and cbet everyone folded.

No, because he said "when you hit, everyone folds"
he didn't say "when I hit, everyone folded"

when you use the present tense like that you are implying repetition
like "When I get up in the morning I run" means you do this every time
"When I got up in the morning I ran" means it happened in the past


Why am I arguing this point? There's a bigger picture that I have in mind. Each opponent has a certain strategy. That strategy involves a certain amount of bluffing/floating and a certain amount of folding. So if your opponent floats or bluff-raises too much, you're going to get paid off when you hit. If your opponent folds too much, you'll get away with cbetting much easier. Your objection is just a smart-ass comment in the vein of "it COULD happen" it doesn't actually help wonderland get better

What's up, Peoples?

To offer the view point of a player probably at or near the same skill level as Wonderland, (12,000 hands at 5/10 FR NL), I think my biggest leak when I first moved up was scared money. I tried to leap as soon as my bankroll hit $200, but much like Wonderland, I wasn't playing as solid because I was afraid to lose a full buy-in at that level.

I went back to the $5 tables until I had 25 buy-ins, then when I moved up I knew I could afford to lose a few buy-ins. This enabled me to make better decisions, 3Bet when I needed to, and call the villians reckless bets with less fear. Of course, it also helps that your collecting stats the more you play any particular level, which helps to put your opponent on a range.

With 12,000 hands a $10 NL, I know I'm full of leaks, but here are my basic stats:
>VPIP/PFR - 17/13
>3Bet - 2% (Low, but I'm working on it)
>Steal% - 39%
>bb/100 - 17.91

My bankroll just passed $500, (started with $50). I'll probably wait till $650 before I try to tackle the $25 tables, and start learning how to play the 6Max tables a little more.

Later,

Lo

His implication was "when I hit, everyone folded." If you're frustrated you tend to make hasty generalizations like "when you hit, everyone folds" when you actually mean the past tense. Fwiw, I don't think it's helpful to argue semantics when the implied meaning is clear. Furthermore, it's not helpful to mislead someone about what could or could not happen in a small sample of hands. Learning to estimate when your downswing is due mostly to variance or bad play is a valuable skill. Wonderland has to ask himself whether or not he actually was telling the truth, and find out the answer to this question on his own. If you tell him that variance is an impossibility, you will end up confusing and misleading him.

No, his implied meaning was that the players were so much better than the ones he's used to. What I am saying is that he probably ran bad because it's not possible that they could always raise him when he misses and fold when he hits.

shh..... No need to spend time to argue on something so pointless.

Ok, then we're in agreement. I thought it was obvious to everyone including wonderland that he ran badly, and that you were saying he could not have run this badly. But instead you meant he can't continue to have the same cbetting results against the weak opponents at 10NL, which is ldo.

I don't agree that when he said "when you hit, everyone folds" it meant that he thought the players at 10NL were so much better than at 5NL. It seems clear to me that he was merely expressing his frustration over the results of a particular session, because it's a common thing to say when you are not getting enough value out of your made hands and because it's so plainly ridiculously untrue of any poker game that runs for any statistically significant amount of hands. The whole tone of the OP implies to me that Wonderland was aware that he was overestimating the skill level of 10NL regs, and was looking for some support and confidence before taking another shot. He can obviously settle this dispute for us.

It was not my intent to make a smart-ass comment. I misunderstood your post as asserting that Wonderland had not run badly in this session when I believed that he had and that your comment could have misled him about the variance involved in a small sample of hands.

EDIT: Agree with stacks above obv, I just didn't like the statement that I would try to make a smart-ass comment about this, especially when those two statements, even interpreted purely semantically, are not logically incompatible

Originally Posted by LoStr8

With 12,000 hands a $10 NL, I know I'm full of leaks, but here are my basic stats:
>VPIP/PFR - 17/13
>3Bet - 2% (Low, but I'm working on it)
>Steal% - 39%
>bb/100 - 17.91

Good job. GoGoGo

yeah, semantics, i guess i meant this.... like one hand i had 88 and raised , got one call, flop came down 8QQ. So i thought, right, slow down, people are playing tight here so don't scare him off. I check called, then i could tell... JUST because i called the guy totally knew i had something... so it went check check on the turn, then check fold to me on the river.

I don't slow play anymore but i felt i could extract value there. But no way was i getting plays like that at 5nl. Then it was a case of PFR, miss, fire, get raised.... PFR, check raise.

Main point is (let's get back to the topic) it was a sudden leap in skill level that i wasn't expecting.

LoStr8, those are some very sick stats, i only beat 5nl for 12BB, i would get onto 25nl if i were beating 10 that much.

More comments on the leap please.

edit: i play on stars, wondering if it makes a diff?

I'm sort of going to echo wonderland's point , in that I've just tried moving up to 10NL. I've had 2 weeks off actually playing poker because of work commitments so was watching grinderschool vids and reading the forums.Some ofthe comments made me realise that instead of having seperate bankrolls on each site , I should have 1 bankroll thats split across several sites and therefore rolled for a higher level.

A second realisation from my period of considering my game was that I was playing far too loosely at 6max ( I blame watching Spendas vids ) and was playing far too many hands from out of position and consequently getting myself into far too many shitty positions. In hindsight Spenda is generally playing from in position even if he is playing looser, he has the post flop skills to carry off his style of play.

I lack the post flop skills and experience to be able to play that style profitably and I think that if I moved up playing as i was , that I'd be easy prey at a higher level.

The decision I have taken is to move to 10NL and play full ring using Rentons starting hand guide. I'm initially going to start by playing 1 table and gradually start playing more tables as I start to feel comfortable.The aim is that I should start to play a solid preflop game and become comfortable playing this style. Then at a later point I may move back to 6 max.

400 hands in my impression is that the play is an awful lot tighter than I'm used to but that was 5NL 6max.I'm sitting on a grand profit at 10NL of 95 cents. I was up 5$ after 100 hands , lost 10 $ on the next 100 hands playing on the wrong table sat in the wrong position . I had position on 1 maniac and next 2 players who had position on me were maniacs too. I should have moved table a lot earlier and its a lesson learnt. next 200 hands were last night and generally tight tables and just kept chipping up slowly to get me back into profit.stats for 403 hands are 18.36/11.17/1.44 ATS 39

Originally Posted by wonderland

LoStr8, those are some very sick stats

Yeah... I hear his coach is pretty badass.

it depends, but sometimes I lead an 8QQ flop because I feel 99+ will be VERY suspicious and will pay me off at least two streets because I'm basically repping trips+
so I mean it's kind of expected you slowplay big hands so if you c/c with a boat here and b/f with air, it's kind of easy to see when you have a great hand and when you miss

although I'm sure NL10 opponents don't really pick up on that, there is a lot of merit in playing your big hands fast OOP
you pretty much shouldn't slowplay OOP
you should only induce bluffs when you're sure the guy will take a stab - and that needs reads

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by wonderland

LoStr8, those are some very sick stats, i only beat 5nl for 12BB, i would get onto 25nl if i were beating 10 that much.

Yeah... I hear his coach is pretty badass.

is this reverse implied nepotism?

Originally Posted by LoStr8

Steal% - 39%

What types of hands are you stealing with. And what villians? Only the nits? Thanks

My steal is 39% and I steal from the villains that sit to my left

Any time you do anything different, the game will seem different. In this case, you jumped stakes, so, yes, the skill level will seem better partly because it is and also because you're coming to the table with a "wow, I'm playing at a higher stakes" attitude, and partly because 30 cents is just a small, standard 3x raise, but @ $5NL, that was a huge 6x raise, and maybe variance, and your sample size is small, or bad table selection and yadda yadda yadda.

I think the key to succeeding @ the next level is not taking shots, being properly rolled so you have plenty of time to get used to all the new variables, and playing with the same strategies (while always looking to improve) that brought you success at your last level.

Good luck.

In response to a few questions:

i would get onto 25nl if i were beating 10 that much.

As I said earlier, I think it's a big mistake to play above your stakes. I won't go to $25 NL 'till I've got at least $600, and may wait as long as $700.

i play on stars, wondering if it makes a diff?

I'm playing stars as well. It's plenty fishy. Be sure to mark the really bad players you run across, and search them out to exploit them.

Yeah... I hear his coach is pretty badass.

One of the baddest!

is this reverse implied nepotism?

Why, Keith, what on earth could you be referring to?

What types of hands are you stealing with. And what villians? Only the nits? Thanks

Depends on the read I have on the villian. Obvously, the nittier the player, the wider my range for steal attempts.

Regarding the idea of playing 1 table to "get comfortable" at the next level. I would advise playing the maximum number of tables you can play solidly. I'm comfortable with 6 or 8 tables. Two reasons: First - playing more tables helps to discourage loose play due to boredom. Second - If playing solid poker, it's profitable to see as many hands per hour as possible. The caveat being that you must be comfortable with the level of activity you could be facing. (Though it rarely happens, I get a little nervous when I get simultaneous good hands on like 6 tables, and have to play them all. I'm subject to make more poor decisions in those instances.)

I didn't read this entire thread, but I played 10nl FR today for the first time in almost a month. Played 8 tables and every one of them was a nit fest (most players had 10 vp$ip or less). That doesn't mean any of these players were any good. I ran 37/24 over 1k hands and cleaned up. You just gotta know when to fold. I raised AKs from UTG and a half-stacker who was 6/4 over 82 hands 3-bet me from the BB. I folded, he showed AA.

fwiw i just really started playing 10NL regular and i find it worse than 5NL. same standard of players but a little tighter maybe. Less all-in w/93s maniacs maybe but im suddenly finding life a lot easier. people are playing v exploitably. well defined ranges etc. literally UTG, betting standard UTG range, c-betting horrible flops, and then checking turn after being floated. just awful. I think this will be by far my most easily beatable level.

cheers ryokan.

So from your post and others, the main consistency i can find about 10nl is that it's tight/nitty. Normally that's my fallback play so what *i* think i'm going to have to start doing more of is being a bit agro, taking pots down when i don't think they have it etc.

I did start to get into this towards the end of 5nl and at the right tables it worked ok, specially when you can build an agro image and get played back at.

Anyone else agree that 10nl is mainly a nit fest?

Originally Posted by wonderland

Anyone else agree that 10nl is mainly a nit fest?

Just keep trying to generalize everything.

Originally Posted by Airles™

\ I raised AKs from UTG and a half-stacker who was 6/4 over 82 hands 3-bet me from the BB. I folded, he showed AA.

I'd imagine his 3bet % was a more relevant statistic.

10NL is not a nitfest when you table select. Playing on a table full of nits at any microstakes level is indescribably idiotic. Like...I can't even begin to understand why someone would do that when 11JohnnyAA11 is always on the next table is open shoving ATC.

Jeez guys... Come on... 10NL is not a nitfest by any means whatsoever. 10nl regs are by no means solid. While sweating my dad yesterday, he had a 86/22 (or close) to his right and a ~76/30 on his left. This was on one table, and I promise you stats like these were not the exception, but the norm. This was 10NL FR at Pokerstars.

Originally Posted by iopq

you should be like 18/15 if you're playing tight in 6m

I am running 15/10 at 6-max and am 24BB/100 at 2NL and 18BB/100 at 5NL.

I run about 30/27 on tight tables, but never play them at micros.

Wonderland, you just need to table select better. If you get on a table that has an average of 20VPIP click the X button in the top right corner and find another table.

LoStr8 just straight up shit on you fools

holla-atcha-boy sir

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

LoStr8 just straight up shit on you fools

holla-atcha-boy sir

I hear his coach is pretty badass.

OK Stax, i shall take your word for it. I'll also table select better.

I did go for tables that had % to flop of at least 45% but it's weird, sometimes this means nothing in relation to the average vpip on the table.

I'll get back into it tonight.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

LoStr8 just straight up shit on you fools

holla-atcha-boy sir

I hear his coach is pretty badass.

funny, I heard his coach likes little boys and that shit is genetic.

oh wait, that's Will

Originally Posted by wonderland

OK Stax, i shall take your word for it. I'll also table select better.

I did go for tables that had % to flop of at least 45% but it's weird, sometimes this means nothing in relation to the average vpip on the table.

I'll get back into it tonight.

change of plans, find the fish and sit with them
then you're guaranteed action and shi

if you're playing FR you REALLY need to get into the habit of starting tables.

Why more of you don't do this is beyond me, also if your stakes have them, start only 50BB tables. I kinda want to make a thread on this but so many FR players are scared of the dark let alone HU play that I figured it would just get dismissed as "too crazy for me".

I've sat and played at nitty tables at $10NL (3% p/f), yes they do exist and every time I'm online I could point out at least one in ten tables with a single digit p/f%. They are the exception not the rule. Naturally $10NL players will be a higher standard than $5NL, even if it's not by much, so yes play will appear tighter.

Protip: On a supernit table, your showdown hands go down in value and your junk goes up in value. I've achieved incredible BB/100 just by representing scare cards on tables like this (nits folding sets ftmfw) with absolute, complete air. Just LAG it up and bully the shit out of everyone until they lower their calling range against you, then BAM remind them why they used to fold TPGK to a hefty raise in the first place. Tiltarrific.

all sounds like good advice, thanks for contributing ladies and gents.

Spenda, i reckon people aren't scared of HU, i think they just can't be bothered with sitting there waiting for a table to fill?

suggestion: make a thread on playing short handed. Too often i think we leave tables when they get short when we should stay? that could coincide with starting tables and HU play.

Plus i think for a lot of people, myself included, HU play is tricky and has a great potential for spewage or at least variance prior to really getting that shit down.

can't be bothered sitting on a table?

yea, guess poker or life isn't for them.

I've been starting a new table quite often lately (if I see a few tables with queues, that's my cue) and yes the net result is basically 20-30 minutes of shooting fish in a barrel, before other regs spot the "75% p/f" statistic and home in. Highly recommended.

EDIT: I missed this line earlier:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

...the players that you would consider good still have considerable leaks that can be exploited.

+10. Stacks wins the thread.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Spenda, i reckon people aren't scared of HU, i think they just can't be bothered with sitting there waiting for a table to fill?

suggestion: make a thread on playing short handed. Too often i think we leave tables when they get short when we should stay? that could coincide with starting tables and HU play.

I agree with Spenda. Most FR players do not feel totally comfortable sitting at a HU or shorthanded game. And therefore, they miss out on a huge +EV opportunity. Fish have little to no sense about the game they are playing in. They seem to click on a table and go to town. So often when you start your own table you can get HU with some random fish, which then leads to another few fish before a reg or two pops in. And this is at 200nl FR. I'm sure it will take even longer for the 10nl regs to find your fish.

If your not really willing to sit and wait for a fish to sit that you have all to your self, then well frankly you don't deserve his money. I've noticed from sweating my dad, he doesn't really care who is left on the table. If the table breaks down to a few people, he no longer feels comfortable, and leaves.

As far as starting a thread about playing shorthand/HU, we have entire forums for just this. There are digests in those forums, and numerous articles around the net. There are books, and videos. Lack of available knowledge cannot be an excuse for lack of study/learning.

I like to start tables and have no problem playing HU. However, is very very frustrating that 99% of the time if i lose first decent pot the other guy insta quits. All the time at my level, grrrr!

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

if you're playing FR you REALLY need to get into the habit of starting tables.

Why more of you don't do this is beyond me, also if your stakes have them, start only 50BB tables. I kinda want to make a thread on this but so many FR players are scared of the dark let alone HU play that I figured it would just get dismissed as "too crazy for me".

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...lection-409172

This is a pretty good article on table selection with a piece on starting tables. I agree with Spenda...I've begun starting tables after reading this article and it works pretty well! For one reason or another, regs avoid these tables and fish are attracted. Plus you get to choose your seat. Good luck everyone!

Wonderland, hope you understand why I moved the post. Didn't want the discussion here to be diverted even more than it has already been, and the post basically belonged in the forum I placed it in.

Either way, don't worry about the necessary move down.. It happens to a significant number of players at some point. I had a rough time jumping from 10nl to 25nl, moving up only to move back down a total of 3 times. And I'm having about the same problem moving up now. No worries. If you have a decent sample at 5NL, then you can go back and obviously continue to win. So your BR will be back in tact soon enough to make another go at 10NL.

Originally Posted by BooG690

For one reason or another, regs avoid these tables and fish are attracted.

Well in most cases, and especially with the number of players on the main sites, a reg would have a more significant edge by simply seeking out his own fish rather than sitting with another reg. You will run into some regs that will "bumhunt" and swoop in on your fish getting ideal position, which is obviously not the greatest of things. But a fish divided among two is greater than a fish divided among 8 or 5. And also in most cases you can be +EV against the reg also.

Stacks, you MOTHER F... (hehe, only joking)

Wow, some actual empathy from Stacks, i thought poker had stripped you of emotions and turned you into a sort of gambling terminator

sigh, yeah i understand. I'm in physical pain after tonight... thanks for understanding. I did think to myself... well, didn't stacks say he had numerous shots at 25? so yeah it happens i guess. I want to post a couple of HH but based on what you said before, maybe another thread.

I would conclude though, that i was playing some reasonable poker. In one spot i had PP and villain to my right raised, i called, he cbet 40c and had made this exact same cbet once before... so i, having totally missed, raised and he folded. I just knew he was cbetting with air there. I felt pleased with that kind of play.

There was one 70/10 station that was up 4 buy-ins who took a lot of the rest of my money, just pure luck, so nothing i could do there.

So yeah, basically one of the more evil things to happen at poker: hitting a full on death spew WHILE trying a shot at the next level even though playing ok. One invests a LOT of emotion and hope into such times.

Ah... one final point, at least i got a GOOD look at 10nl while my heart was being broken. I did find fish, but man it was weird, they were playing... ive just had to retype that sentence coz i can't explain it, they just seemed like trickier fish is all.

I would say that moving from 5nl to 10nl is doable if you have some ok reading skills, know how to be a bit aggressive, are very positionally aware and can table select well. That's my take on 10nl thus far. Coz you can't get away with not giving the game your full concentration like you sort of could at 5nl.

Question, Stacks: Mind if i ask what you're taking a shot at now? i've watched your play since you were a wee 100nl nipper.

Wonderland, 10NL is virtually NO different from 5NL. It just costs more to play. Thats my take so far. I sucked at 5NL and now I suck at 10NL too lol.

I'm trying to move up to 2/4 (400nl FR), but running into some problems. Mainly I just haven't given it a wholehearted shot yet. TBH, I'm pretty much scared money there at this. The thought of having standard -$2k days doesn't sit me all that well. Add to that the fact that the table selection at 2/4 is pretty atrocious compared to what I am used to at 1/2, and well I just haven't put much effort into the move yet. Also, I hate playing multiple stakes at this time (some 200nl and some 400nl at the same time for instance). Just seems gross. But I'll pull through. Planning to play more and more 400nl on the weekends, and probably continue to reg up 200nl during the week for a bit.

Plenty of fish at 10NL.

Last night's tables
Table 1
95/50/?? over 40 hands (he was 100/50 until the table coach told him not to play so many hands)
93/30/?? over 45 hands (this was the table coach)
60/30/?? over 40 hands
and 2 others not worth mentioning
I got cold cards forever

Table 2
85/40/?? over 80 hands (When he would get below $2, he would push every hand)
60/20/??
others

Sort tables by Players per Flop and find least number of hands per hour with largest avg winnings.

shit.

just lost 2 buy-ins at 5nl.

i've lost around 15% of my bankroll today. I hear these stories but never think they're going to happen to me. That's like 6 buy-ins @ 5nl. I just can't win a hand and everyone is playing 20vp.

Do i really need a coach at 5nl??

I have no idea what the FUCK to do. I literally can't bet anymore coz i know i'm beat.

edit: anyway, i know this is all off topic, i'm just having the single worst night since i started playing poker. Bear in mind when you move back down, the slide can continue. Sometimes i wonder if my whole bankroll is just going to get blown on people calling my AA with shit.

And yet, worse things have happened to many people and they've survived through it.

It sounds like you're not confident in your own ability to do well in the long run. Have you tried doing things that can boost that confidence? I tried Tae Kwon Do for a while and I think it helped me out with that.

dude, i'm getting every hand imaginable beaten. The confidence doesn't really come into it except that i've been so burned by the possibility of not know if i'm ahead or not, that i'll turn into a total nit.

I just wish there was a video somewhere of someone getting destroyed by variance. I watch videos and think, wow, he's still "happy to get it all in" with like an open ended straight draw or top pair with a potential flush on the board. I'm like... shit i only have a full house, i'll just call his river donk bet. Oh, he beat me anyway. Five of a kind..... pocket Jesus'.

RUNNING BAD!

I could show you some sick hand histories...but that won't do you any good.

Get TeamViewer and have someone sweat you, you sound like you're letting your losses affect your play.

By "take a shot", I assume you mean to play at a level you are not rolled for. If you are playing within your roll, then there should be nothing to worry about and you are not taking a shot. Treat the chips as big blinds.

Originally Posted by wonderland

So i just decided to 'take a shot' at 10nl

Don't take shots. I can think of lots of reasons why.

Originally Posted by wonderland

i've lost around 15% of my bankroll today.

Once you lose 5% of your roll in one day, you should be done playing poker for the day.

Originally Posted by wonderland

dude, i'm getting every hand imaginable beaten. ... I watch videos and think, wow, he's still "happy to get it all in" with like an open ended straight draw or top pair with a potential flush on the board. I'm like... shit i only have a full house, i'll just call his river donk bet. Oh, he beat me anyway. Five of a kind..... pocket Jesus'.

RUNNING BAD!

This illustrates a self fulfilling prophecy. You think you're running bad, so you think differently and play differently and it probably brings on even more bad results. I know you were trying to make light of the situation, but ask yourself if you've really been playing optimally?

I think to be successful in poker, you should always be on an even keel and unaffected. It's clear from your responses that you have been rattled and at the core of that is probably because you took a shot and then continued to play past a reasonable stop loss. When you play outside of your roll and lose significant chunks of your bankroll, there is a very real emotional investment in your results and that's a bad place to be.

Good luck, though, bouncing back.

Wonderland... This might sound harsh, so I apologize in advance. But keep in mind I wouldn't post it if I wasn't trying to help you. If you were anywhere close to my shit-list either the post would be worse or I would just ignore you.

You are not JUST RUNNING BAD. When push comes to shove, you suck at poker. It is 100% okay, and you really should admit it. Without even watching you play and only looking a few hand histories, I can come to this assumption and feel pretty confident about it. But like I said, it's fine. I suck at poker too. When you start saying you are just running bad, and that you are really playing well, it's JUST variance, then you start to focus on the wrong things. You will begin to say, well I didn't play it perfectly, but even if I had I would have gotten beat anyways. Or you would say, I'm so much better than these players, if luck wasn't involved I would win them all. And pretty soon you will stop studying and trying to get better, and instead you will focus only on how bad you run. This is a really bad mentality to have.

You need to realize, and the sooner the better, that you have a LONG way to go before you can even consider yourself good at poker, let alone solid. Yeah, sure you may have had a few bad beats, but you still don't understand how poker works. You had one rough night. Haven't you ever heard poker is a terrible game in the short run? And to look at your results in the long run?

Seriously, man up.. Quit bitching about your luck, or lack thereof. You are not the only one who has been coolered. Begin studying/learning/growing as a poker player. Take those hands where you got the money in good, and see if you made any mistakes. Yes you can make mistakes when you get the money in good.

I know it's easier said than done. And even I bitch and moan sometimes, although rarely on the forums, if ever. But I've always enjoyed the fact that I have been so quick to blame my losses on my own bad play, rather than variance. When I lose money, I immediately figure I made a mistake, and I attempt to understand that mistake. Not many people do this, but I think it's wonderful to do so. It keeps you in line and always trying to get better. And when you do find a leak in your game, you shouldn't be upset. Instead, seriously embrace the fact that your game still has leaks to be plugged. If I were to find a huge major leak in my game tomorrow (I'm sure there are plenty), then I would be relieved that even with this large leak I'm able to beat 200nl FR. This means I still have room for improvement and that I have not reached my peak. So then I can plug the leak, and move on.

Stacks is 100% correct, and I can assure you he is trying 100% to help you.

I 'ran bad' last week and lost over 10% of my roll. But then I had a forum member sweat me and I realized how many horrid mistakes I was making, everything from missing value, bluffing at poor times, to just playing shitty poker. I pretty much made the wrong moves at the wrong time. Obviously running bad is part of it sometimes, but usually running bad for an extended period of time is just your play deteriorating from focusing too much on results.

1st step is admitting you have leaks, then you can go on to solve them. You'll never fix a problem you don't address.

I admitted to myself my play was awful, so I did some heavy study over the week and reviewed some basic concepts and theories that cannot be stressed enough. I also looked over hand histories from the losing sessions to see which habits I tend to fall into when running bad so I don't end up playing worse. Studying more has also increased my confidence, and I feel like I know WHY I make a play more than I did last week, just because I spent a bit of extra time figuring things out.

You'll never figure things out if you don't admit you don't have it figured out, and you won't figure it all out just by reading 1 or 2 books.

I'll continue to never know enough, so I'll continue to study. I hope you do the same. Review your sessions, get someone to sweat you, post hands - do everything you can. If you do, you'll be able to pay off your student loan or car loan or pay the rent or whatever a year from now. There's some people here at FTR that are living proof it can be done (except stax he's a bot :P).

who would have thought a good thread turned into a bad beat thread

I suck at poker too...and for that reason I'm still at 5NL. I'm learning something new every day and putting new ideas and strategies into practice. I'll probably suck all the way through my poker career...until I actually win the WSOP (Jamie Gold sucked and won, but that's a whole other story). Either way...I'm glad Stacks was so blunt about it and said it. Don't blame bad beats and don't blame variance. Go back into your HH...post some of the biggest hands that you lost. And don't just post hands that are obviously bad beats...be honest and post the hands that you think you may have made a mistake on. Post hands where you don't think you milked your opponents enough. Post, post, post!

And be careful getting down on yourself. Play poker as if you are even. Thinking that way will have you playing your best poker. If you see yourself up or down too much, you will become results-oriented and your decisions will be skewed. Best of luck to you buddy. Take a small break and come on back. Self-exclude yourself for 24 hours. Read some articles. Imagine implementing them yourself in your game. After those 24 hours, come back relaxed and stronger.

who would have thought a good thread turned into a bad beat thread

who would have thought spenda would have come in with a one liner.

Anyway man, this is still within the confines of the issue of moving up and how it can be dangerous terrority, things to consider such as moving back down when you've lost 5% of your roll. Ok so let's look at that sentence and make sure it's spenda-proof. *lights fuse and keeps safe distance*

ANYWAYS

I want to offer sincere thanks for everyone's input on this. Stacks maboy... i'm more up for tough love than anything so i'm totally open to your crits, and thanks. Not up for bitching or vague encouragement, tough love works best.

Yeah, today i thought, you know what, if i wasn't in SUCH a hurry to make a living from poker this would all be fine. I really must find a way to make poker a thing of patience AND realise that one has to factor in like 2 downswings per stake at least. I just hate it when i see someone's graph just go up, that must affect me subconsciously.

Jason: i wasn't taking a shot, i had almost 22 buy-ins for 10nl. I'm going to wait until i have 30 so the mistakes can be cheaper.

Sweat me? hooo yes please, how the hell can i find someone to sweat me?? any offers? must have pwnd both 5 and 10 at least, i promise actual gratitude. Or do i just have to buy myself a coach?

seriously, i'd love that.

EDIT:

But like I said, it's fine. I suck at poker too

umm... no you don't.

A pot sized bet is the same at every stake. A shove is the same at every stake. A buy in is the same at every stake. There is no spoon.

Reverend stacks has blessed this thread. Your first question if you lose a hand (and even if you win) should always be 'should I have played that hand differently'. In a SnG last night my pocket 10's got rivered by 8's (both shoved pre) for 3/4 of my stack, yet I played the hand well. Later on my slowplayed AQo HU allowed my opponent to catch a straight, and I immediately knew that I was at fault. But I digress...

Wonderland, you sound like you need a confidence boost and an impatience cure. My suggestion for both - do a couple of sessions single tabling $2NL.

I have a feeling that because the money matters more to you as you move up, it will matter less if you move down. This could be exactly what you need. If you take some time at $2NL it won't matter whether you win or lose, giving you the chance to concentrate on playing poker. Free from the distractions of BB/100 and BR, you can find more time to concentrate on whether you've played the hand well and whether you've soul read your opponent well. Ask yourself after every.single.hand. whether you think you played correctly. Don't move back up to $5NL until you've a/ got your confidence back and b/ plugged some leaks.

BooG690 suggested taking a break and studying (articles, books, HH's). I second that. Grab Theory of Poker if you want a great entry-level book that will remind you not to be results orientated, and it covers all of the fundamentals required to beat the micros.

Confidence - in yourself, as well as not to fear a hand based on past results, and not to consider the actual monetary amounts when betting or raising.

Patience - to know that you can't make a profit every session, and that one month is but a millimetre on the yardstick of your poker career.

My final bit of advice would be to try a pre-session ritual. No sacrifices or prayers, just a little mantra that you say 5 times explaining exactly what you would like to get out of your session, whatever the goal of the day may be.

This is really going to affect my WPP. Good luck Wonderland.

Originally Posted by wonderland

things to consider such as moving back down when you've lost 5% of your roll.

I don't think you should move back down when you lose 5% of your roll. People stop playing for the night when they lose 5% of your roll. Take the time off to study your hands and see where you messed up. Also, this can work to get your head straight.

Originally Posted by wonderland

who would have thought a good thread turned into a bad beat thread

who would have thought spenda would have come in with a one liner.

LOL beautiful

If you get Teamviewer and Skype, I wouldn't mind doing a sweat session. I didn't spend much time at 5nl but I am currently beating 10nl for a decent clip. (A lot of that is due to positive variance, but I'll take what I can get ). Hit me up on AIM, MSN, or PM me if you end up getting the software.

And Micro, are you talking about me sweating you? or did someone else do it? And on that note, STOP CHECK CALLING ON THE FLOP AND TURN WITH THE NUTS IF YOU EXPECT ALL THE MONEY TO BE IN BY/ON THE RIVER. lol Carry on.

Thanks for the tips, lucothefish.

I think i should miss out 2nl, it's so bad i have absolutely no idea when i'm ahead.

http://www.stayinwonderland.com/clients/poker/tags.jpg

ok, having another terrible night. Lost about a buy-in and a half. Look at the above URL for the average VP of players i'm finding these days. All from tables where the % to flop was over 50%.

Symptoms of running bad:
1. Not getting any cards
(when getting cards...)
2. Missing too many flops
2b. Missing flops with calling station
2c. Missing flops in a 3way
3. Using good reading strategy (bet timing/amounts) but getting it completely wrong e.g.

bad player min bets a flop, i raise because i have top pair although no kicker, figure i'm ahead and i know that kind of bet means bot pair. They call and it checks down to the river. They had a set!

4. Get called by fish with Q rag, they hit i don't (after a 4x raise with like AKs)
5. People aren't folding to cbets when i do miss
6. Tables that start out at 50% to flop turn into 20/15 tag fests. By the time i realise this i'm down 20bb, do this across 6 tables.

So this is now how i'm finding 5nl and trying to get the point across that it aint fish city all the time. Infact i'd say about 30% of the time it goes this way. Just enough to keep me from making a decent win rate.

Dranger. Yeah, if you feel that you could deffinitely spot my leaks? I mean i have no idea how good you are and i ideally want someone who is considerably better than me so i can trust their judgement, you know what i mean? What are your thoughts. If so then i'll be ready to go soon as.

In retrospect, 10nl was similar to this, or vice versa. Just can not find the fish to any workable degree. WAY more tags than i'm happy with and way more tags than people seem to believe? You'll see a couple of fish in the screen grab but not many.

I'm not going to say I'll be able to spot ALL your leaks, or even most of them (I have plenty of my own) but I think I can help you spot and hopefully close your biggest ones that are keeping you from winning more. Also, I don't want to say that I'm a "better" player by a huge margin, but the fact that I'm able to beat 10nl and you are struggling should give me a lil room to say that I can help you improve. I might not be the best coach/sweater in the history or poker, but I think I do ok.

If you are still interested go to teamviewer.com and skype.com and download both programs. Teamviewer is a program that allows me to see your screen while you play, and skype is basically an online phone that lets actually talk instead of typing. Much easier to communicate.