New 19 hand play chart

Originally Posted by jackvance

But since then I kinda saw what this 19 hands system is all about.. it's not for me, but I acknowledged what it was for. To learn people who are new (or struggling) some of the basics.

Jack, you have hit the nail on the head. As a beginner, I must say that it is difficult to avoid paying expensive lessons learning the game. AOK has provided at least ONE WAY to get started and do so with a reasonable probability of not losing one's shirt (or whatever you used for your last buyin). It's a great starting point for many but surely not for all.

I think the most important thing is the caveat AOK puts on the type of tables you play this at. Limping KJo UTG works if there's not going to be a raise preflop and J8 limps and will call you on a J53r board.

The big problem is that $10NL are the only tables this happens at. At $25NL there just aren't enough loose/passive calling stations to make it profitable. At PokerRoom anyway. I'm playing a bit of $10NL now, and it's much easier to play your top pair OOP with 4 in the hand than at $25NL, where it's an unhappy situation to be in.

Maybe last year things were different, and you could find these sorts of tables at $50NL or whatever, but not now.

Originally Posted by flyingPenguin

I think the most important thing is the caveat AOK puts on the type of tables you play this at. Limping KJo UTG works if there's not going to be a raise preflop

IMO limping KJo UTG is never a play that will yield positive expectation at a full ring table, regardless of the table texture.

I think most people who point out the flaws of the system totally miss the point of the system. Its for beginners All the flaws that Renton pointed out are probably true, but a beginner does not understand or know how to apply those concepts and would probably do better to just avoid them all together.

however the more you play, the more experienced you will become. You study, read as much as you can and evaluate you're game. then you begin adding these concepts and building you're own style/game.

What this system does is cut down the learning tax, its then up to you as a player to evaluate your game and add or subtract to it as you see fit. Regardless of what anyone says this is a great system that gives you a solid foundation to build on.

It is how i got my game to where it is and i now take all the things Renton spoke about into consideration when i play. Now my game is not great by any means but i sincerely believe i got here alot quicker and a lot cheaper than i would've otherwise.

My game has now evolved or rather is evolving to take all the things Renton spoke about into consideration.During a good 3hr session i change pace between what i consider my game, performance poker, and counterplay depending on table dynamics, image, position, stacks etc. etc... I have yet to perfect this into a whole game but i'm constantly making adjustments and always 19hands is my fall back position if i mis-step.

This conversation has happened several times over several of AoK's posts. I think he's tired of defending his position. What else needs to be said. I find that if I stray too far from this system at the lower stakes I get killed. What Renton says is right aboutsome of the plays, but you can't stray too far @$5NL and $10NL because of the retardedness of the play. At $25NL it becomes evident that you need to make moves more often, play position more, and becareful about your post flop play by knowing your plan. No one has come up with another solution less dangerous to a beginner and his deposit . Let's move on to how to improve your play beyond the 19 hands. After you've learned the basic style of tight is right (@ the beginning) What next? What is the move for someone who has grinded 19 hands @ $10NL to a big enough BR to move up, say $250 or $500 depending on who ya talk to. 19 hands will work @ $25 NL but there is more, AoK will admit this as well. So what else, What is the suggestion to someone ready to move up and on. The 19 hands is the right play, @ the beginning, now we know the game, we are killing $10NL, now what?

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

This conversation has happened several times over several of AoK's posts. I think he's tired of defending his position. What else needs to be said. I find that if I stray too far from this system at the lower stakes I get killed. What Renton says is right aboutsome of the plays, but you can't stray too far @$5NL and $10NL because of the retardedness of the play. At $25NL it becomes evident that you need to make moves more often, play position more, and becareful about your post flop play by knowing your plan. No one has come up with another solution less dangerous to a beginner and his deposit . Let's move on to how to improve your play beyond the 19 hands. After you've learned the basic style of tight is right (@ the beginning) What next? What is the move for someone who has grinded 19 hands @ $10NL to a big enough BR to move up, say $250 or $500 depending on who ya talk to. 19 hands will work @ $25 NL but there is more, AoK will admit this as well. So what else, What is the suggestion to someone ready to move up and on. The 19 hands is the right play, @ the beginning, now we know the game, we are killing $10NL, now what?

I played 19hands almost exclusively at 25nl & 50nl, there's no need to make more moves at this level. The only reason I made moves was to take advantage of a obvious situation. when you make moves its probably means you are trying to outplay your opponents... I take a seat at 5-6 tables and wait for my opponents to outplay themselves.
It got to the point the other day @ 50nl that i felt opps were pushing their money at me... it was that easy! by the way this is not a strategy for 1-2 tables, I suggest you get PT & PAHUD and open 4 tables minimum.

Great posts all!!!

Let's have some fun. I'll once again put my money where my mouth is...

Here's the thread. If you can beat 19 hand, come do it. If you can't then come try anyway.

Let's have some fun... Hell it's POKER!!!

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=345098#345098

ahem.

i think, after reading performance poker website, i may have realized that "I don't know how to play poker (correctly)" and am perhaps an "Action Junkie."

with now still 2 months left, i think i am going to give this a try and "start from scratch" perhaps. and while i think i may be good, i probably am not, and in no way possible can this not help me.

i read the aok 19 hands before and went, "yah those are nice, but they are for beginers" and decided i'll play the hands i want to play. (quick question: there's no suited connectors on there. are you saying you don't think it would be beneficial to play them for 5xbb to hit a 4-card drawing hand or made hand?)

but clearly what i'm doing isn't working long-term, so i think starting fresh is the best way to go. thinking i'm good because i can beat slightly worse friends probably isn't a good assessment of play, and was just a false ego/excuse thing.

aok, i just seemed to notice this seems to be intended for 10-table use only. how easily does it translate to 6-max? i'm sure the same principles apply, but can hands be added in, like suited-connectors, JTs?

19 hand is a training game to teach discipline and the value of systematic play. It also teaches the Principles of Performance Poker. Once you complete the 19 hand training portion of Performance Poker then you absolutely KNOW how to evaluate, add, change, prove, prototype, etc. games for... adding hands, different table conditions, 6-max, whatever. But without the 19 hand foundation the rest would be "interesting" but wouldn't hit home. So, long term, Performance Poker can handle any table conditions, sites, etc. But step #1 is playing 19 hands, which is a 10 player high flop%, high average pot game.

Thanks

aok i sent you an email last night about signing up, did you get it?

Originally Posted by johnnyBuz

aok i sent you an email last night about signing up, did you get it?

This is for anyone who ever emailed me and didn't get a response. I respond to all emails within 24 hours, generally alot faster. If you emailed me and didn't get a response then email me again. I was having a problem with my smtp server that I didn't know was happening. I fear that about 35% of my responses never made it to the recipients. Also, if you have a spam filter put [email protected] as an OK person to receive emails from. I don't know if the word "Poker" in the domain it triggering a spamguard or not.

We'll work through the issues. It's only week 2 of me doing this. There were bound to be technical glitches.

Thanks.

Johnny I'm sending to you again.

AOK, did you get my e-mail?

[email protected]?

Originally Posted by thnwkd

My game has now evolved or rather is evolving to take all the things Renton spoke about into consideration.During a good 3hr session i change pace between what i consider my game, performance poker, and counterplay depending on table dynamics, image, position, stacks etc. etc... I have yet to perfect this into a whole game but i'm constantly making adjustments and always 19hands is my fall back position if i mis-step.

I think that is exactly how 19 hands is "supposed to work".

It is kinda what I went through too.. not with 19 hands, I just made my own system. Then again, I could never have used 19 hands in the first place since I've never in my life played full ring. Only shorthanded. But anyway, I just played according to a certain systematic play I had devised.. and then slowly certain other things revealed themselves to me.. like position, how to play lower odds hands, lagging it up more, etc.

And it is my honest opinion that 19 hands is a good system to have as a backbone while you learn your own things. Pretty much like thnwkd described. Nice post.

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by LOLAOK

I'm not a fan of value betting on the river.

WTFBBQ

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by LOLAOK

I'm not a fan of value betting on the river.

WTFBBQ

Unnecessary.

aok,

A sincere question. What kind of stakes are you currently playing at in NL ring, and where? How are you doing in those games?

AOK,

I'm having difficulty sending you an email. Rather than fill up your inbox, let me know when I should re-reply.

Thanks,

Originally Posted by DLC11

I have a couple questions if you don't mind.

At what levels is this kind of play effective on?

At those said levels, how much money can someone really make implementing your strategies?

Plus i need a good tip on a bridge in brooklyn.

If you have it, spell it our concisely and above and beyond all your previous efforts FOR ME.

yeah . that will work.

Hey Aok I love the job that you are putting into this. Ive been following you and using the stragety you have offered us. I have walked out of tournaments or cash games everytime with money.I was wondering though if a book has been published or where can i get it.

Originally Posted by Lukie

aok,

A sincere question. What kind of stakes are you currently playing at in NL ring, and where? How are you doing in those games?

I'm playing NL10 to NL100 at fortune, paradise, pacific, titan and full tilt. I'm playing less than 10 hours/week at this point - with all the other things I have going on. I play 19 hand where appropriate, counterplay where appropriate and what I call my 35% game on most higher buyin tables.

Originally Posted by yorib

AOK,

I'm having difficulty sending you an email. Rather than fill up your inbox, let me know when I should re-reply.

Thanks,

give it another shot

I tried aok's system and it isn't bad when the tables are running really loose. It can be a bit of a grind, but if you open up at least 4 tables it isn't too bad. What I learned though is that most people will pay you off when you hit your monster. Especially when you push on the river. Most will think that you are bluffing or they are not disciplined enough to fold and want to see what you have.

All in all, it is a system that will keep you out of trouble and really help you become a winning player. I wouldn't suggest this for someone that is fairly experienced, however it is great for those that are having a bad run and need to get back to basics.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

All in all, it is a system that will keep you out of trouble and really help you become a winning player. I wouldn't suggest this for someone that is fairly experienced, however it is great for those that are having a bad run and need to get back to basics.

Holler. This is music to my ears.

Well, I figure since I've gone through a bit of a learning curve with the 19 hand system, I'll shed my story to anyone who cares reading.

I've played poker seriously for over a year now, the majority of it spent in my basement with friends, playing 10 dollar buy-in tourneys and I've always won more than my fair share of the games, and during that time I've spent quite a bit of time playing online tourneys building a fake chip BR. It was just a month or so ago that I started playing online poker for real money, by selling fake chips for 5$ on pokerstars. I was thrilled just to be playing the penny tables, and quickly found myself building my bankroll to 40$, 50$, then 70$ and decided to move on up to the 2/5's. Within a week my bank roll found itself at 225$ and I was damn proud of it.

That was when I decided to try my luck at the 5/10's.

The first night I tried playing, I'd been busted out of one of our weeknight tourneys in my basement, this time a larger game - the buy in was 25$ - and there were about 8 of us playing. The hand was a heartbreaker, I had raised on the button with AQs and was a little short stacked, with the blinds fairly large, I was quite committed to playing this hand. The sb folded to the bb, who was the huge chip lead of the night and had been running like a mad man. He looked at me, laughed, and said "what the hell, maybe I'll get lucky. I'll go all-in". Knowing he'd been playing junk all night, I called in a flash. With a grin on his face he flipped over 45o while I proceeded to deal out the hand. Needless to say, the 5 hit on the turn and I bust. With all the alchohol in my system, the hand nearly killed me.

So I figured, what the hell, I'll make it back playing some online poker. I booted up PS and sat down at a 2/5, when one of my buddies yelled at me, "dude, you've gone from 5 to 225 on there and your still playing for pennies, you could make some real cash."

So? I quickly scooted my way to the 5/10's, figuring he was right, that I'd steamroll these chumps, too. Well, needless to say, I learned my lesson the hard way, losing 40$ in about half an hour. A combination of me being drunk, and playing stupid cost me more in one night than I'd ever lost before. In not too long I found myself nearly breaking even, but never pulling ahead, and we all know what I mean by breaking even...

That's when I decided to give the 19 hands a try. And at first, well, it did alright. I had very little variance, but very little gain. In the next week, I played the 19 hand system to quite closely, raising half the size of pots and folding more often than I ever used to, and in a lot of ways I found it really helped my game, but there was definitely something missing - I still wasn't making a dime. I seemed to break even every single time I played, I would go up a bit, then lose to over-sets and bad beats, it was happening all over the place, and driving me mad. So after a week of breaking even and playing the tightest poker in my life.

I went back to the old ways.

And you know what? It worked, I did fabulously tonight, all things considered. Two awful beats (AA losing to AK, set of 4's losing to a set of 8's [30 dollar pot] )but I still am up two buy-ins for the first time on 10$nl. What's the difference? Well, I can't say I'm totally sure. But instead of being the person folding most of the time, I found the chips coming my way, and in reality I didn't even run all that well. I found myself able to bluff certain hands (by targeting the right villains) and win fairly substantial pots by playing a stronger game. I think the 19 hand system while teaching me to play a bit tighter (which I definitely needed, mainly because of the transition from 6 max to full ring), made me play a lot weaker, and caused me to get drawn out on and bullied out of hands I really should have taken down. By playing a smarter, stronger, tighter game, I found myself for the first time making money tonight, and it was playing my own game, not the 19 hand system.

By all means, I do not mean this to downplay the 19 hands, it taught me a few lessons I truly did need to learn, but from my own personal experience, it seems to me that the system teaches one to play tight/weak instead of the tight/strong that forms a winning strategy.

But the absolute best thing about the strategy? The 19 hand system truly teaches one how to fold. I went from the calling station I used to be to a tight/strong player who wins the bigger pots and sends the boys to the muck when I can sense I'm beat, and generally speaking, there is no stronger play in No Limit Hold 'Em when you're beat than a fold.

Just my 2 cents.

lol @ FlopTurnThenRivered

welcome to the forums

its my understanding that the 19 hands is just a beginer's "training" course and is not the end-all-is-all for how to play poker. i think he said after 19 there would be another program to try or something like that.

Yeah definitely, and it's a great system for teaching what hole cards to *generally* raise with. But depending on the situation, I've found that playing a looser game can pay dividends, even at the lower stakes. One just has to be smart about it, if you're not going to bluff the guy off the pot, don't fire at 'em. But say you PF raise with 34s, and only the bb calls, if you come out firing it's +ev big time. As well, I've done the opposite as of late, if someone PF raises and the flop comes a blank, I'll often check to the raiser, then re-raise to see if he'll lay it down. It's surprising how often they'll let it go. Of course, if they call you down or re-raise you know to fold immediately, but as of late it's been +++ev.

But then again I will honestly say that I feel I'm a much better poker player than most of the players at the 5/10's. Really the biggest downfall I've had of late is running horribly in the big pots. Sets losing to over sets, straights getting called down and flushed. I even had a full house busted by quads, but I guess that's poker.

Great site btw, cheers.

Originally Posted by arkana

lol @ FlopTurnThenRivered

welcome to the forums

Thank-you.

according to pokertracker (demo) i've lost money with my straights and full houses. what are the odds.

Originally Posted by johnnyBuz

according to pokertracker (demo) i've lost money with my straights and full houses. what are the odds.

Don't have poker tracker, but I'm sure I have too...

Hey flopped. Were you playing 19 hand at Poker Stars? If so, that explains the flat results. Alot of people overlook the table requirements to play 19 hand, they are 45% or higher preflop callers and 25xBB minimum average pot size (not counting uncalled bets where everyone folds to you).

If you try to play 19 hand on typical PS, UB, Party tables adn similar where you might have 40% preflop callers but less than 20xBB average pot, or you might have 20xBB average bots but lower preflop callers, then you'll run into flat overall results. I appreciate you trying it, though. And I'm glad you found a game that works for you where you play. Have you documented it? I'ld love to see your take on the game.

Originally Posted by Muxy

i play blackjack by a chart, not poker...

anyways good job

This quote made my day.

Nice site AOK.

Comments:
1.) "If you try to play 19 hand on typical PS, UB, Party tables adn similar..."

PP+PS+UB= about 75% of all online poker tables. Add other rock gardens (PokerRoom, Full Tilt) and you're probably up to 90%. So you might as well people that your "Performance System" only works on obscure poker sites where all the players are Scandinavian sportsbook bettors.

2. Phil Hellmuth already came up with your system before you did. He calls it "Supertight" and it has only 15 hands (pairs+AK), which makes you look like a raging maniac. Except Phil suggests pushing your chips and you want people to fold to a standard raise holding TPTK on the flop.

http://www.unknownpoker.com/articles...ting-hands.htm

3. One of your 19 hands is -EV. QJ is a loser unsuited. Look it up:
http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/g...stats/expValue

4. AOK, you talk like Dr. Phil. Most people find that annoying. Stop that.

Them's fightin' woids.

By the way, some comments on your comments:

1. There are plenty of fishy sites that conform to AOK's standards. You might not see them advertised on TV, or speak the same language as other players, but you can earn a good rate at their tables, which is what we are here to do.

2. Phil Hellmuth is a tournament player, and from what I understand a notoriously bad cash game player. His system is irrelevent to this discussion, and it's merits are debatable.

3. QJ is not -EV. Your [broken] link says so.

4. AOK has made many contributions to this forum. Criticize his system if you must (it is not optimal by his own admission), but there is no need to insult him. You aren't speaking for me when you say he is annoying. He is here to help players that are losing, and many people here appreciate his input.

1. >> There are plenty of fishy sites that conform to AOK's standards. You might not see them advertised on TV, or speak the same language as other players, but you can earn a good rate at their tables, which is what we are here to do.<<

I know these sites. Their software is terrible. Cashouts take several days. Multitabling is difficult.

2. Look, Party Poker is my litmus test for any strategy because it has the most table, most fish and most pros. Any system that can't even beat the 25NL tables at Party needs work. I think the reason it fails is that Party fish will raise with anything, thus forcing AOK's rocks off their hands.

In the interest of fairnesss, I actually think AOK's rock formula might hold up at Party Poker, given good table selection. But HE says it doesn't work, so who am I to question the master?

3. >>2. Phil Hellmuth is a tournament player<<

And Mr. AOK is a "professional" sit & go player who now plays about ten hours a week.

4. >> and from what I understand a notoriously bad cash game player.<<

He has the most carefully managed table image on the planet. I am not a follower of him by any means, but I just want to point out that he and AOK are barking up the same tree.

5. >> His system is irrelevent to this discussion, and it's merits are debatable.<<

Which means you don't know anything about it. It is much the same thing, except Phil actually expects people to THINK when they are sitting at the table, rather than c-betting to the rover.

6. Look, you're on the button holding KQs. One guy behind you raises 1BB. AOK would have you fold! Does that make sense to you??? Re-raise the guy! Or at least flat call! Why would you fold when you have good cards and position?

7. 3. QJ is not -EV. Your [broken] link says so.

On a ten-player full ring table, QJo loses money, except on the button and cutoff:
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...php?players=10

Ditto 9 players:
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta....php?players=9

Remember, AOK says suitedness does not matter and is downright vague about position.

8. >>Criticize his system if you must (it is not optimal by his own admission), but there is no need to insult him.<<

I was around during the dot-com boom. I remember all sorts of self-proclaimed gurus touting the virtues of Pets.com and eToys on Internet forums and saw them lead people into bankruptcy and ruin as a result. AOK strikes me as that sort of personality.

AOK admits he sporadically his own system, perferring something called "counterplay," even though he is daring people to beat Performance Poker's results! Where is his track record at cash games? Will he post his hand histories?

OK, here are working links for those EV tables. I hope.

Here's 10--handed:
http://tinyurl.com/2mdw5

Here's 9-handed:
http://tinyurl.com/njv88

Did you make a new account just to flame AOK?

Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 3

Any system that can't even beat the 25NL tables at Party needs work. I think the reason it fails is that Party fish will raise with anything, thus forcing AOK's rocks off their hands.

Ummm no duhh. Thats why it ISN'T PROFITABLE at party poker. Maybe AOK knows this and thats why he doesn't recommend playing it there?


Seriously what are you trying to accomplish. This thread has come upon hits by "pros" in the past. We've already established that this is for beginners. It isn't a sure fire way to make millions. Playing this game teaches basic skills that help one play better.

I for one am grateful for all of AOK's posts

Originally Posted by Yakuman

Comments:
1.) "If you try to play 19 hand on typical PS, UB, Party tables adn similar..."

PP+PS+UB= about 75% of all online poker tables. Add other rock gardens (PokerRoom, Full Tilt) and you're probably up to 90%. So you might as well people that your "Performance System" only works on obscure poker sites where all the players are Scandinavian sportsbook bettors.

2. Phil Hellmuth already came up with your system before you did. He calls it "Supertight" and it has only 15 hands (pairs+AK), which makes you look like a raging maniac. Except Phil suggests pushing your chips and you want people to fold to a standard raise holding TPTK on the flop.

http://www.unknownpoker.com/articles...ting-hands.htm

3. One of your 19 hands is -EV. QJ is a loser unsuited. Look it up:
http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/g...stats/expValue

4. AOK, you talk like Dr. Phil. Most people find that annoying. Stop that.

I can tell you're a fan... We got a saying down in Texas where I'm from... The chick with they yellowest feathers pecks the most grain but has the least meat. See you later buddy!

Here's the sequence of events that occurs, like clockwork, whenever AOK post any type of content:

1. AOK posts some mildly controversial poker theory.

2. All of AOK's disciples converge and make love to AOK and his theory.

3. All of AOK's haters post mildly sarcastic flame tidbits against AOK and his theory.

4. A few intelligent critiques and inquiries are posted from neutral parties (non-haters, non-disciples).

5. AOK's disciples converge again and refute the intelligent critiques with poorly applied concepts, whilst re-flaming the AOK haters.

6. AOK finally responds to all, leaving many questions from both sides unanswered.

7. Thread ends or gets locked.





thats all, just something i noticed...

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Hey flopped. Were you playing 19 hand at Poker Stars? If so, that explains the flat results. Alot of people overlook the table requirements to play 19 hand, they are 45% or higher preflop callers and 25xBB minimum average pot size (not counting uncalled bets where everyone folds to you).

If you try to play 19 hand on typical PS, UB, Party tables adn similar where you might have 40% preflop callers but less than 20xBB average pot, or you might have 20xBB average bots but lower preflop callers, then you'll run into flat overall results. I appreciate you trying it, though. And I'm glad you found a game that works for you where you play. Have you documented it? I'ld love to see your take on the game.

Woops almost forgot to reply to this. But yeah actually I was playing on PokerStars, and the results were exactly that - flat. As for "documenting" mygame, I'm kind of curious as to what you mean?

But I do want to say thanks, your system taught me a heck of a lot. Cheers.

1. Tell me why I should limp with QJo when UTG on a loose table.
2. Tell me why I should fold KQs on the button with a single raiser behind me.
3. Tell me why I should fold TPTK on the flop with AK or AQ in the hole after a c-bet gets a single raise.

2. I don't understand the aversion to Party. Most rocks I've seen LOVE that place because they sit there, wait for the nuts, and get paid off. Get that set of 2s and take the stack from the guy who overbets top pair. Yet AOK's system is so passive that his followers' pocket pairs fold pre-flop once the raises pass 5XBB. ON a 10NL tables that's a mere fifty cents!

Also, if you DO manage with limp pre-flop and hit your set, you're facing trouble because your multiple loose opponents will be watching for their straight or flush draws. If you insist on trying to push toward all-in, you run a serious risk of reaching bad beat city. If multiple callers have drawing hands, they give themselves favorable pot odds to stick around. For crying out loud, raise!

Yak,

There's no reason why YOU should limp or fold or do anything else according to 19 hand play. YOU Don't Play 19 hand Holdem. To YOU this is an intellectual exercise. It's not real. Either you are advanced beyond the beginner level or you're just one of those poker geeks who studies everything. I don't know. But it sounds like you know more than me. So, I would highly recommend that you come up with a system to help beginners play better poker.

You see, the thing people don't appreciate is that there are poker books, but they are GENERAL information. They say, "here's all this information, now go forth and figure it out on your own" because poker is situational, it changes, each hand and table and whatever should be evaluated on a dozen levels and even when you make the right decision you may lose and blah blah blah. In essence they teach alot of good theory that can be applied once you LEARN TO PLAY POKER but it's hard as hell to execute as a beginner.

My goal last year was to create a system that I could TEACH TO HELP BEGINNERS. Not a system that made Poker Geeks happy. Not a system that everyone would say, "wow aok is a poker genius". There are as many ways to play poker as their are winning poker players. But I created a system where I could say, "Do A then B then C then D and you will have success." Now, once you've experienced success then you can start to expand and grow and apply additional THEORY to your game. In doing so I define what table types should be played and what cards and what bets and what folds. But I also teach the REASON WHY WE DO THESE THINGS. So, instead of having a bunch of theory and no practical application. I say, DO THIS and then say, "here's why". But all of this doesn't matter to you.

The reason why my "disciples" (which is a way to put them down, btw) respond is because they have used the system and it WORKED FOR THEM. So they don't want others who might want to try it to get sidetracked by detractors who have never played it, will never play it, don't want to play it, and in most cases are too advanced to care about it.

19 hand is a Practical Poker Game for Beginners. By practical I mean it has to be PRACTICED to be understood adn to get the meaning there-of. It's not academic, it's not theory. It's a way to get engaged in a winning poker game in a controlled environment and start to learn the lessons of winning poker. The person can then go on to apply additional theory. They can participate in Phase II game development. They can do whatever they way, but they will always remember the principles taught by 19 hand.

All I can do at this point is post the results people have gotten from taking the challenge. THE GOOD AND THE BAD. These are from people who have been in the challenge between 1 and 3 weeks. They are from emails I get every day that include hand histories that I review and comment on in detail. They come with questions and comments and frustrations and excitment. Because in the end I created this system as a teaching system and I stand behind it. I love helping BEGINNERS. Advanced players don't need help. They should be working to help others.

Here are quotes from emails I've received from people who are actually PRACTICING 19 hand discipline the the Performance Poker Challenge. Most started from $50, a couple started with more. All are playing NL10.
*************

By the way my bank roll is $300 now.

******
I've actually played nearly 12,000 hands since I started playing 19 hand. I'm very pleased with the results. Through 10k hands I was running 10ptbb/100. I haven't been running as well these last two days, but I'm still boasting a win rate of 8ptbb/100. My bankroll is currently at $411.91 which means I have more than doubled my original investment of $200.
****

Wow, what a beating today! I was supposed to have all kinds of time to play tonight, but I had all kinds of interuptions so I figure I was able to play a wee bit more then 2 hours at two tables again. I know it's not about the reults, but I got destroyed today, down almost 4 buy-ins which is alot for me. The last hand that is posted was the first hand of the night( I think I should have walked away at that point because I just got more pissed off as the night progressed).
** The hand he is referring to is...
(AsJs) limp 4 callers flop=5hTs2s opp bets 1xbb i call turn=5s opp bets 1/2 pot i raise to the pot river=7s i bet the pot opp pushes i call opp turns over 57 (WTF!)

(BTW, after losing 4 buyins he's still up 100% of his initial $50 site buyin.)

***
Things have not been going great, I am down to $15 of my $50 BR.

(I haven't seen any of his hand histories yet, btw. Hopefully I'll be able to help him get on track)

*****

(this guy is playing Party at the beginners tables) owever, the Party beginners tables are phenominal. I was probably running at 15ptbb/100 at $5NL for as long as they let me stay.

****

I have put together a spreadsheet of days played and the progress for the month playing 19 hands. It is definitely doing well. So far I have turned the $50 deposit into $168 at the time of writing this email.

***

(one guy just sent me a screenshot of the cashier. above the picture it said "Day 13" meaning 13 days into the challenge. The amount was $389.21. He's moving to NL25 now.)

*****

tonights' session at PS-- in one hour at 10nl plus 164bb. This strategy is working great for me so far. Total--Up 379bb over 6 hours playing 19hand
strategy.

******

Hi again Anthony--After I e-mailed you my homework I went over to Poker Stars for a couple of hours to work on my bonus and ended up with 137 bb profit for the two hour session. The method worked well for me.


*****
(this one doesn't talk about money, but the HH's he sent me said he finished the session up about 50BB)

Anthony,
Here are the hand histories for my first session playing your system. I played for an hour with about 130 hands seen. It went pretty well!

I made a couple of mistakes:
- I bet half a pot rather than at least the pot on the river with a full house.
- I was multitabling and missed a continuation bet after the flop and it ended up being checked around. My continuation bet on the turn looked weak and I was raised off the pot.

Apart from that it seems to be going well.. I certainly feel more confident in my play already.

*********
(here's a negative one)
I left down about 30bb (o.k its only $3.60 but sad). I folded Ace x religiously and watched people take pots and double up their stacks with low
pairs with aces on the board. So hard. Here are some hands --this is
about 1 and 1/2 hours worth. I wasn't dealt much worth playing--Comments appreciated.

************
(here's another one that's not up)

I must admit that I am still a bit frustrated. After all the play this weekend, I am just about even overall. When I was playing Sat., I was 3 tabling, looking only for tables that were +40% and min 20x bb pots. I would be up on two tables, but on the third taking beats and losses that were essentially erasing those profits. A lot of play to just tread water. Although I have been a loser at ring over the last 2 months, so maybe I should just be happy that I seem to have stopped the bleeding.

*******

That's enough. If I posted 20 more they would be about the same.

What's the point to all this?

Hell, I don't know. It's JUST POKER. I'm having a ball helping people. 19 hand is what it is. Performance Poker (I've said this 10 times) isn't just 19 hand. Next month I'll start working on phase II games with the people who finish the 19 hand challenge. That should be a learning experience.

Finally, whether you think performance poker or 19 hand or I am stupid, that's fine. The best thing about FTR (which is the best site bar none) is that there's a place for everyone. I went from a losing playing to a winning player through FTR. I'm giving back what I can. And others on the site are doing the same. So, GO WIN SOME MONEY!!!

GL

Originally Posted by FlopTurnThenRivered

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Hey flopped. Were you playing 19 hand at Poker Stars? If so, that explains the flat results. Alot of people overlook the table requirements to play 19 hand, they are 45% or higher preflop callers and 25xBB minimum average pot size (not counting uncalled bets where everyone folds to you).

If you try to play 19 hand on typical PS, UB, Party tables adn similar where you might have 40% preflop callers but less than 20xBB average pot, or you might have 20xBB average bots but lower preflop callers, then you'll run into flat overall results. I appreciate you trying it, though. And I'm glad you found a game that works for you where you play. Have you documented it? I'ld love to see your take on the game.

Woops almost forgot to reply to this. But yeah actually I was playing on PokerStars, and the results were exactly that - flat. As for "documenting" mygame, I'm kind of curious as to what you mean?

But I do want to say thanks, your system taught me a heck of a lot. Cheers.

We'll get to it. But not tonight. lol It's almost 1 am.

1. You suggest I come up with a system to help beginners play better poker. Well, Phil Hellmuth’s Supertight method is a system, which IMHO works better than yours. There’s one.

2. As far as poker books talking about poker being situational, that happens to be the truth. How many of them have you read? Most of them have starting hand charts. Playing post-flop can’t be pre-programmed; that’s why bots don’t work in NL.

3. You have to answer a single one of my concerns. Tell me why I should fold AJs on the button with a single raiser behind me.

Yakuman, here's why. Because the 19-hand system is intentionally simple. Because it's for beginners who need to have straightforward rules to follow. AOK has decided that, for better and for worse, position introduces too many variables for the system to be truly simple. However, the system DOES minimise potential losses by suggesting both of the actions you disagree with, which is a good thing for a beginner.

You're right, of course, to say that QJ shouldn't be limped utg (had I invented the system it would have been 18-hand or even 17-hand, fwiw). But that's not the point. The point is the system will be flawed BECAUSE it's a simple system and poker is a hugely complex game.

Have you ever tried to write a guide, or even a crib sheet for your own use? I have, and I gave up on the 5th or 6th level of complexity because the number of variables I felt i had to introduce meant that practically every hand, in every position, required a different approach. Which, of course, IS how advanced poker works (and I'm far from advanced, but I'm progressing).

As AOK has repeated a million times, the 19-hand system is a necessarily truncated system designed to help beginners develop an understanding of the most fundamental poker concepts. Your arguments go way beyond that sphere, which is why, in this context, they are simply irrelevant.

...

Biondino, thanks for a reasoned response. You say that the 19-hand system is intentionally simple. Exactly.Too simple. Telling people not to think about suitedness and position means they will be bad players for life. For example, in a short-handed game, you can limp on the button with any two suited cards and be +EV.

The true fish are glorified slot players. They don't care about anything and don't want to learn. They just want action. On a site I play I see two people on there all day who just sit there donating. They just keep playing. I have no idea where they get the money, but they're never going to change.

AOK:

1.) Rocks lose less money than loose players do. We know that. Nevertheless, your system won’t sustain anybody for long. On loose tables, your followers will be pushed out of hands. On tight tables, your guys will get crushed by aggressive sharks.

2.) You rarely fold AJ to a single raiser because he might have a pocket pair, suited connectors or something else. If you flop an A, you’re still in good shape. AJs also gives you a shot at the flush draw which you ignore. Plus you probably have position on the guy.

3.) What do you mean, “bet confidently?” This is poker. You pay your money, you take your chances. BTW, you’re the one telling people to push when they flop a set, even though I believe that hand gets cracked by showdown 25% of the time.

haha
i love this, what a mess.

Until now i dont think id taken the time to read this thread. Perhaps becasue i felt i didnt need to, perhaps becasue i thought it would end in the mess that caused Rippys expulsion from FTR
I dont know

The fact is that when you have no idea how to play poker, and basically you suck and need to learn very basic skills to break even at poker, we here at FTR preach by set farming and playing tight.
We all know what tight looks like on a bunch of math sheets, something like 15/8 (renton stats i like to call them) and if we ever needed proof that tight is right Renton is proof of that.
However, not everyone who starts at poker is as good or perhaps as studious of the game as Renton is/has been. That means these players need somewhere to start. (sorry im singling you out renton, your rise has been rather quick though hasnt it?)
To be honest, i could side with Renton and lambchop and say, bleh this isnt the way to play, but to be honest we all needed to start somewhere and i dont think the 19hand idea is all that bad when you are starting out.
Calling with pps to make sets and playing/raising big cards to flop top pair or c-bet when miss to hopefully steal the pot is the most basic part of poker playing now. It actually hardly was when i started, and that was but a year ago.
Therefore, as a starting point i think we have to understand that while the 19 hand startegy is not perfect it provides a starting point for players to understand how the game works. Big cards make pairs and perhaps straights/flushes etc and these can win money as can pps that makes sets and when you are playing the avergae joe whos there for fun this is easily the best way to begin to build a bankroll.
Certainly, as Renton notes, limping KJo UTG or not raising big unsooted cards is not a great play we here at FTR would recommend LONG TERM, but lets be honest, its probably break even or a slight looser to start with and if new players get paid on sets then their br is going to move up anyway. It simply allows them to get the feel of how to play the game does it not?

Where is all this leading?
the 19 hand strategy is a starting point, for the beginner to poker. I think personally, its a good start point when you know little or nothing about poker. To be honest, i wish id known about it for my first 10k hands, i lost $600 over that period (25buy ins at 25nl!). How many of our new players ever come on and say that now?
Not a lot, thats for sure.
So while AOk's guide is a good start point i feel AOK and others must recognise it is just that, a start guide. With a few modifications, ie limping suited conectors and not limping big cards oop, it is probably the game most of us adapt to play ring games upto 100nl on this site (be honest now renton, we both know we play the game similar to this :P ) so in that case it teaches the fundamentals well. Yes there are ideas that will be destroyed by our higher stakes players once our beginners move up, Pelion will hopefully recognise this, but the fundamentals need to be learnt dont they? Make a good pair and bet it, make a set and bet it. Pretty simple in my book.

So for all those out there who want to learn, this IS a good starting place. But once you begin to make money (hopefully) and your bankroll begins to grow you will need to study the game (as everyone still does or at least should do) and make the necessary strategic changes to AOK's beginner strategy. It has some points you will alwasy use in your poker game, set farming etc but also some you will dump pretty quickly, limping KJo UTG in full ring games.
Thus, the strategy is in the beginners forum for a reason, that doesnt mean it is useless to beginners but understand your game needs to develop from what you start with here and here is a good place to start.

As a final point, what strategy's do we use in medium/high stakes games that we would never dream of telling a new player, the exact same thing applies here.
Start with a semi solid game that makes money and learn which areas of it can be kept for long term profit and which can be dumped for different strategic concepts like limping 87s instead of QJo

gl, i hope my long long post makes sense and makes people who have posted in this thread think about exactly why this is the beginners forum.

...

Grinding out $15-$30 average per day? Would you like fries with your c-bet, sir?

Notice that word "grind." Video poker is more stimulating!

That's just silly. If I could earn an average of a buyin per day I'd be very pleased. I don't play more than 500 hands a day though

Yakuman, you're just being bloody-minded and ignoring both AOK's and Miffed's (excellent) contributions. IT'S FOR BEGINNER IT'S FOR BEGINNERS IT'S NOT FOR YAKUMAN IT'S FOR BEGINNERS. It's a shame you can't remember what it's like to think that K4o is a great hand to play in any position, but the people to whom this strategy will be relevant are still there.

im trying to remember the last beginners forum poster who had actually lost money over their first 10k hands. Thats how much advice is now available to a n00b compared to a year ago when i first began playing.

Originally Posted by johnnyBuz

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by midas06

Originally Posted by LOLAOK

I'm not a fan of value betting on the river.

WTFBBQ

Unnecessary.

Im shocked that anyone would think that a discussion on this topic would be unnecessary.

Maybe how midas is asking about it is a bit immature but still.

AOK, whats up with not value betting the river. A street I feel I pass up way too much value on.

Biondino, I read a couple of books before I even touched online poker. I also spent a bunch of time with poker video games and played some friendly dealer's choice with some friends. To date, I've spent more money on poker books than on deposits. Giving money to Mason Malmuth is a better value than giving it to some random geek with datamining software.

I bought a few poker books too - they didn't really help me, they were both for live games.

I'm glad you learned how to play poker from reading books, that isn't the best option for everyone.

I much rather learn in the field, from experience, playing a tight game like 19 hand - rather than take advice from a poker author that spends more time writing poker theory than at the tables (i'm not attacking any authors, its just that sometimes their writings are too hypothetical)

Whatever works for you, take off and run with it. Don't try to put down someone thats just trying to help.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

im trying to remember the last beginners forum poster who had actually lost money over their first 10k hands. Thats how much advice is now available to a n00b compared to a year ago when i first began playing.

i did. but i also didn't read enough.

miffed - or the last forum poster who admitted they lost over their first 10k

You know, ThelVlaster, I've been worried about the state of poker recently. I thought that maybe with all the books, software, multitabling and whatnot, that the great pool of fish would dry up.

Now I feel better Now I realize that the masses of people are either unable or unmotivated to learn the rules of probability and will approach the game with the all the sophistication they give the craps table.

If you like 19 Hand, you really should try video poker. If you grind away at certain casino machines, you can grind out maybe a 1 percent return. Plus you get logo keychains, ball caps and 2-for-1 buffet coupons with your slot card.

Originally Posted by Yakuman

If you like 19 Hand, you really should try video poker.

Now there's a thought. Then atleast we will be safe from the aggressive sharks that inhabit 10NL that you mentionned earlier.

Yakuman: If you are such a pro at the sophisticated game of poker, why have you only managed to post in this one thread in your 6 days of being a FTR member?

I mean why would a pro like yourself bother with the Beginner's Circle - let alone a thread solely meant for beginners. Seems to me like you are a duplicate account or seriously hellbent on making us think your way on something.

he's not a duplicate account

...

I admit that I'm NOT some guru of poker like AOK and others. But, it seems awefully stupid to play Texas Hold'Em off a chart like some people play Blackjack! I guess for me it's like this... If you NEED a chart to play poker the RIGHT way then you just plain SUCK and have ZERO skill! Great memory. Good at following directions. But ZERO skill or talent for the game!!!

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Alot of people overlook the table requirements to play 19 hand, they are 45% or higher preflop callers and 25xBB minimum average pot size (not counting uncalled bets where everyone folds to you).

A lot of people also overlook the fact that if you actually find tables like this then you could follow the directions on the back of a box of Trojans and make money. Follow the 19 hand chart or a condom box, either way someone is gonna get fucked.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Alot of people overlook the table requirements to play 19 hand, they are 45% or higher preflop callers and 25xBB minimum average pot size (not counting uncalled bets where everyone folds to you).

A lot of people also overlook the fact that if you actually find tables like this then you could follow the directions on the back of a box of Trojans and make money. Follow the 19 hand chart or a condom box, either way someone is gonna get fucked.

...

AOK, I apologize for leaving you with the presumption that all I was doing was leaving "doo doo" on your floor. I'm not trying to be rude. But... I still believe what I said. Poker is a game of skill, math, and luck. Any "REAL" pro will tell you that you can't play the game like a robot. You'll never win if you ALWAYS follow a "map." Now I may not be as experienced as you and I certainly haven't posted threads or comments thousands of times. But I do know that learning to play winning poker is MUCH MUCH more then finding a prize at the bottom of a cracker jack box. NO disrepect to those of you who are so opulent and magnanimus., but I DID NOT post that remark to "SHIT" on you, but to simply CRAP A BIG FAT STINKY TURD on the idea that someone can master the game by following a freggin map!!! And further more I find your reaction to what I said just as "rude." I'm sick of all the people who think there so great because they write blogs and have thousands of threads and have played poker for 20 years... blah blah blah... I least I can own up put my balls on the table and say "Hey, I'm not very good. But I LOVE this game. So maybe we can kick around some advice and ideas and maybe we'll both get better." So... AOK forgive me for what may SEEM to you like crapping on your floor. I just want to play a pure game man against man whit against whit. If I wanted to play a robot I'd play poker on the XBOX! I hope to be as good a player as you someday AOK you seem well learned but I hope I can do it without cards, when I can out play a guy "blind" like Men Nyguen or Doyle Bruson and not have worries that's the level of poker I hope to be at someday. But GOD FORBID it becomes a game userped by a bunch of robots!

I admit that I'm NOT some guru of poker like AOK and others. But, it seems awefully stupid to play Texas Hold'Em off a chart like some people play Blackjack! I guess for me it's like this... If you NEED a chart to play poker the RIGHT way then you just plain SUCK and have ZERO skill! Great memory. Good at following directions. But ZERO skill or talent for the game!!!

19 hands poker and chart is mainly designed for people with little or no skill (or discipline). Just basic crashcourse of playing tight and betting hands.

Talent shows up later. When you understand that system and know how to improve it, use your own brain cells to fix it and fine-tune, then you can talk about talent.

If you have any constructive ideas how to improve it without too much messing with fresh minds of other learning beginners then go on, arguments like "doyle doesnt play like that" or "it's all about feeeel dude, not rigid rules" won't cut it. Tell some newcomer "dont follow system play by feel or whatever but DO NOT follow a system" and he will go broke fast.

If I wanted to play a robot I'd play poker on the XBOX!

If you know how to pull the money out of your xbox then good for you sir.

I just want to play a pure game man against man whit against whit.

...On low stakes tables? ROFL

If you have better ideas about teaching newcomers basics of winning strategy then write about it and don't shit on Aok's teachings because you dont know shit about teaching and learning processes. Aok knows. Period.

...

This is way off topic:

aokrongly, I am absolutely amazed by your patience and willingness to help the same people who constantly fire insults at you. It is clear that you put more time and thought into your posts than almost everyone else here.
{Edit: I shouldn't have added this last sentence. There are lots of very competent posters on FTR and I don't want to detract from anyone else. I also wish I had never stuck my head in this thread, but what's done is done.}

I learned the tight game before 19 hands so I can't comment on it. When I incorporated your counter-play strategy I started crushing 10NL. Thanks for the help.

I don't read the beginners forum much so I don't know how much you are still posting. I just wanted to say keep up the good work.

[/dick sucking]

"Counter-play strategy?' You mean that once you get tired of one system, there's another?

Look:

If a mechanical system could beat the tables, someone could program a bot, set it loose, and rake in the dough.

Or you could find a rich investor to hire armies of AOK followers to hit the Internet, deploying them in shifts 24/7 to crush every loose low-stakes table in existence.

For decades people have developed mechanical systems to beat sports books, Wall Street and even the real estate market. They don't ever work. For an example of such a failure that triggered a global crisis, get a great book called "When Genius Failed" by Roger Lowenstein.