New 19 hand play chart

Originally Posted by Yakuman

"Counter-play strategy?' You mean that once you get tired of one system, there's another?

Some people call it switching gears.

Counterplay is good against aggressives and 19 hand is good against passives - depends on the table.

Originally Posted by Vrax

If you have better ideas about teaching newcomers basics of winning strategy then write about it and don't shit on Aok's teachings because you dont know shit about teaching and learning processes. Aok knows. Period.

Ok, i feel i really need to point this out. Why is it a crime to attack AOK's "teachings?" Everytime someone comes out against an AOK post, one of his followers immediately comes out in violent defense saying "unless you can do better shutup!" Do i know the best way to teach a beginning poker player? No, i dont. However, that does not mean that I cant recognize the WRONG way. Why do you think most of us that criticize AOK even bother? Because we have nothing better to do? No, its because we strongly disagree with AOK's teachings.

I can remember vividly a situation with a different person several months ago. His name was Ripptyde. Rippy posted an MTT guide that contained almost all BAD advice. Most of us who knew better saw the fact that beginning MTT players were following his bad advice so we started criticizing some of his points. I bring this up because the reaction that followed was IDENTICAL to this reaction. Dozens of people responded in defense of rippy saying how his guide helped them, bla bla bla, stop bashing rippy, bla bla bla, he knows how to teach, bla bla bla. Guess what? After a dramatic exit from FTR rippy moved to other "less friendly" poker forums and posted his same advice. The response on 2+2 was one of the biggest bloodbaths in the history of online poker forums. Why did it go down like that? Because rather than face up to the accusations made towards him and his strategy, Rippy hid behind the blind faith and defense of the dozens of "followers" he had "helped."

So here is what this comes down to: there are two sides here. A. Those who agree with AOK that poker is a game that can won by playing a system. And B. Those who believe that the WHOLE POINT of poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

Vrax, listen to yourself. "AOK knows. Period." Thats quite a strong statement to make about a guy who never posts any hand histories or profit graphs, has ZERO posts asking for input on his own play or implementation of strategies, and quite frankly has posted absolutely no evidence that he is even a winning player using his own strategies. This a poker strategy forum. We discuss and DEBATE strategy. Noone's advice should be taken in a "XXX knows. Period." fashion. If AOK's system really works, i would love to see some actual graphs and stats of LARGE sample sizes proving so. And by large I mean 100k+ hands.

So here is my response to everyone who is defending aok's system so strongly against those of us who disagree. A. Accept the possibility that you are wrong and that we have a point. Or B. Put your pokertracker where your mouth is. (And that includes AOK).

P.S. Before i get all the flames back at me. Let me point something out. I am keeping an OPEN MIND. I personally do not believe AOK's system is a winning system that should be taught to beginners. IF I AM PROVEN WRONG, i will admit defeat and take back my criticisms. My main token is this, people have a right to disagree and a right to criticize, for any of you who want to attack those who are doing so, I AM calling you out. If you want to come back with counter-points against their criticisms, thats fine, but DO NOT attack them simply because they disagree with AOK or because they haven't "written their own material."

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Originally Posted by Vrax

If you have better ideas about teaching newcomers basics of winning strategy then write about it and don't shit on Aok's teachings because you dont know shit about teaching and learning processes. Aok knows. Period.

Ok, i feel i really need to point this out. Why is it a crime to attack AOK's "teachings?" Everytime someone comes out against an AOK post, one of his followers immediately comes out in violent defense saying "unless you can do better shutup!" Do i know the best way to teach a beginning poker player? No, i dont. However, that does not mean that I cant recognize the WRONG way. Why do you think most of us that criticize AOK even bother? Because we have nothing better to do? No, its because we strongly disagree with AOK's teachings.

I can remember vividly a situation with a different person several months ago. His name was Ripptyde. Rippy posted an MTT guide that contained almost all BAD advice. Most of us who knew better saw the fact that beginning MTT players were following his bad advice so we started criticizing some of his points. I bring this up because the reaction that followed was IDENTICAL to this reaction. Dozens of people responded in defense of rippy saying how his guide helped them, bla bla bla, stop bashing rippy, bla bla bla, he knows how to teach, bla bla bla. Guess what? After a dramatic exit from FTR rippy moved to other "less friendly" poker forums and posted his same advice. The response on 2+2 was one of the biggest bloodbaths in the history of online poker forums. Why did it go down like that? Because rather than face up to the accusations made towards him and his strategy, Rippy hid behind the blind faith and defense of the dozens of "followers" he had "helped."

So here is what this comes down to: there are two sides here. A. Those who agree with AOK that poker is a game that can won by playing a system. And B. Those who believe that the WHOLE POINT of poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

Vrax, listen to yourself. "AOK knows. Period." Thats quite a strong statement to make about a guy who never posts any hand histories or profit graphs, has ZERO posts asking for input on his own play or implementation of strategies, and quite frankly has posted absolutely no evidence that he is even a winning player using his own strategies. This a poker strategy forum. We discuss and DEBATE strategy. Noone's advice should be taken in a "XXX knows. Period." fashion. If AOK's system really works, i would love to see some actual graphs and stats of LARGE sample sizes proving so. And by large I mean 100k+ hands.

So here is my response to everyone who is defending aok's system so strongly against those of us who disagree. A. Accept the possibility that you are wrong and that we have a point. Or B. Put your pokertracker where your mouth is. (And that includes AOK).

This about sums up what I was too lazy to type.. but for some reason Im not too lazy to follow that leg guy around and reply to all his posts... bye now

rippy and aok is actually quite a good comparison

Good post lambchopdc

Overall good post lambchopdc:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

So here is what this comes down to: there are two sides here. A. Those who agree with AOK that poker is a game that can won by playing a system.

I'm not aware of anyone claiming poker in general can be beat by playing a system.

Can a system beat a low buy-in table full of weak passive players (or whatever 45%, 25BB pot is)? I believe this is true.
Is the system better than playing even intermediate poker? No, and no one should claim that it is.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And B. Those who believe that the WHOLE POINT of poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

Some charts or something would be nice.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And B. Those who believe that the WHOLE POINT of poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

Some charts or something would be nice.

Since the only thing AOK's disciples take seriously is a chart, here's one...

Every novice of poker should start by learning a positionally aware tight aggressive game. Its not too complicated, and it will make you a better player whereas a chart will only hinder your development.

My roommate started playing about a month ago at 25nl on party using my 500 dollar stake, is doing quite well now, and is about to move to 50nl. I gave it to him str8. I told him to be aware of position and play a tight aggressive game. I showed him how I played 200nl everyday (taking away the aspects of my game that require fold equity and such) and he adapted that style to 25nl successfully within days. I didn't dumb down anything. I made sure he wasn't afraid to bluff on occasion, to semi bluff, to hang his balls out there with a draw now and again. He suffered a lot of variance and did some screwing up, but what he didn't do is get an oversimplified strategy.

I didn't condescend on him by automatically assuming he was too dumb to understand the subtle and unimportant NLHE concepts like position, first level hand reading, implied odds, position, table image, bluffing based on flop texture, and of course position.


I think its rather insulting to say that the only thing a NLHE novice can comprehend is an overly simplified chart that only allows them to beat completely unaware fish.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And B. Those who believe that the WHOLE POINT of poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

Some charts or something would be nice.

Since the only thing AOK's disciples take seriously is a chart, here's one...

danuts, how are you not president of the US of A yet? Or atleast dictator of some lesser country?

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Since the only thing AOK's disciples take seriously is a chart, here's one...

Actually blackjack can't be beat by a system either.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Since the only thing AOK's disciples take seriously is a chart, here's one...

Actually blackjack can't be beat by a system either.

not even a complex system of checks and balances?

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And B. Those who believe that the WHOLE POINT of poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

Some graphs, hand histories, results or something would be nice.

FMP

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Since the only thing AOK's disciples take seriously is a chart, here's one...

Actually blackjack can't be beat by a system either.

not even a complex system of checks and balances?

Umm, I don't understand your question.

Losses can be minimized with a system, but you're still loosing. I don't consider -eV = beating (so it was kind of a joke).

This thread is too heavy for me, I'm out.

My biggest problem with AOK is that he is using FlopTurnRiver.com as a platform to promote his own site. It may not be as obvious as some attempts by others, but IMO it is spam none-the-less.

I first came to FTR to get advice on how to improve my game. I initially just followed the starting hand charts that were listed on the main page (don't know where they are now), but eventually found my way into the forums and got involved in the discussions. As a way to give a little back I made it a point to use the links on FTR when I signed up for a new poker room, etc. I've seen AOK's site and this is what he is asking his visitors to do.

He's backhandedly advertising his own site under the guise of providing "free" lessons and information to new players. If you think what he is providing is "free" then you are naive.

I love playing poker, but more than that I love helping others play better. If I have helped you then “tip the dealer”. If Performance Poker has helped you then “tip the dealer”. Just email me at [email protected] and I’ll let you know how you can donate to the site via Neteller or Paypal or however works best for you.

In addition to blatantly asking for donations, he encourages you to use his affiliate links. This creates him revenue. Revenue that is being lost by FlopTurnRiver.com when someone finds their way to his site through FTR and instead signs up through his links. If I was an admin for FTR I wouldn't stand for this. It's akin to going into someone else's place of business to advertise your own. If I owned a Honda dealership I could not go into a Nissan dealership, address a new buyer's concerns and answer their questions then tell him to come to my dealership instead once I was through.

As for the content of AOK's site, I don't have a problem with the starting hand chart. I used one myself when I was learning how to play. His "19 hand"s aren't anything revolutionary though. Starting hand charts are a dime-a-dozen and similar ones can be found on numerous different sites. The rest of his charts are ludicrous though. You're destined to be a losing player if you think you can play post-flop according to a chart. The idea is almost laughable. I just browsed the chart a minute ago and immediately saw advice that was losing advice. I'm not talking about advice I just happen to personally disagree with (which there is plenty of), but advice that is mathematically incorrect. I don't know what it is that AOK knows, but it's certainly not mathematics.

Furthermore, the fact that there is a disclaimer that his system only works on tables where 45%+ are seeing the flop and the pots are 25BB+ should be enough to make anyone wary. Those stats are rediculously loose for a full table. Can you even consistently find such games beyond the 0.01/0.02 level? About the only place I know of is when there is a private FTR game.

This brings me to a challenge of my own to AOK and any of his students. The private FTR game typically has table stats (45% seeing flop, and avg. pot 25BB+) that you claim the performance poker system can beat. The game can also be $25 NL, stakes you have claimed to be successful at and stakes where I presume many of your students would feel comfortable playing. I challenge you and 4 students of your choosing to follow the performance poker system and beat me and 4 other players of my choosing.

I'll take a declination of this challenge as affirmation that you lack faith in the performance poker system.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

danuts, how are you not president of the US of A yet? Or atleast dictator of some lesser country?

There are countries "lesser" than the US?

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Since the only thing AOK's disciples take seriously is a chart, here's one...

Actually blackjack can't be beat by a system either.

You, sir, are a moron.

My system only uses 1 hand

Originally Posted by Anosmic

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

danuts, how are you not president of the US of A yet? Or atleast dictator of some lesser country?

There are countries "lesser" than the US?

Sweden is pretty low on the pecking order, buddy.

http://img430.imageshack.us/img430/5...ndchartuy8.png

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Just like in any other social gathering, you get to choose to be with the rude, sarcastic, spitball throwers who have little to add to the discussion and little interest in doing so. People who just make smartass comments, or better yet, quote others smartass comments and put a heart under them. I mean, you should wonder why these people even read threads. Or you can be something more.

That's funny coming from you. You've written hundreds of posts about the same basic preflop strategy, and I don't think you've written a single post where you talked about a difficult decision you had to make after the flop. Be something more, my ass.

I don't know how many other people here will like or appreciate this analogy, but let me tell you what I'm reminded of when I see you talking about 19 hands. I played the piano all throughout elementary school and high school. When I was in about 8th grade, I was an OK player, but my technique was terrible. I had a lot of tension in my arms and wrists, and as a result when I would sit down at the piano for more than about an hour at a time, I'd get pretty bad pain in my arms and wrists and I eventually developed tendinitis. It sucked, and I had to take a couple of months off. When I came back again, I got a new teacher who taught me to play with a completely different technique, a lot more free and loose. It felt like I was learning to play piano all over again. At first I played a lot of songs that seemed "too easy" for me, and it was frustrating to know that a lot of the time I'd put in learning to play the wrong way had been wasted. But within a year or two I was WAY better than I'd ever been before. By the end of high school I was pretty damn good, and I never had any more pain even when I would play piano for three or four hours at a time. I'm not telling this story to brag, I'm telling it because I truly believe that anyone who learns to do something the right way, and works very hard at it, will be successful. But anyone who learns to do something the wrong way, will eventually hit a wall, and it might be very hard for them to overcome it.

Your "19 hands" system is kind of like the bad technique that I had when I was a kid. It might help beginning players beat the easiest of the easy tables on the Internet, but it will soon become a crutch for them that will force them to learn the game all over again if they actually aspire to become good players. Poker is a game that you beat by using logic to decide what's the best thing to do in tough situations. I think beginning players would be much better off if they immediately started to get used to the process of making tough decisions.

For example let's look at your post-flop guide. It says that if you have AK and the flop brings an ace with two low cards, you bet and are raised, then you should fold. This is certainly good advice some of the time, but some of the time it's horrible advice. Think about the other hands you've seen your opponent play. What type of hands have you seen him show down after he raised a bet on the flop? Does he ever raise on a bluff? Does he overvalue one-pair hands, or does he only put a lot of money in the pot when he has nut hands? How much money is left in his stack, and in yours? These are the type of questions you should be asking yourself when you decide whether or not to call him down. I think beginning players are far better off learning how to make tough decisions, than to just fold every time they face one, the way you tell people to do.

A lot of the posters who you're calling "rude, sarcastic spitball throwers" actually contribute a lot to this site. They post hands where they had a tough decision to make and they didn't know what to do, and they give other people advice for how to handle such situations. They might post sarcastic comments from time to time, but consider that part of what makes FTR valuable is that people who give bad advice get called out on it.

On FTR, you can choose to be with the broken records who post the same formulaic advice in every thread that will do nothing to help people become good poker players in the long run. Or you can listen to the people who have the ambition to be the best poker players that they can be, and are actively involved in helping others to do so. We all know which of those two options you've chosen, but I want the beginning players to know that they can be something more.

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

http://img430.imageshack.us/img430/5471/handchartuy8.png

You seem to have forgot open pushing of the flop to prevent random draws.

Just a friendly moderator announcement to remind everyone to play nice.

This thread has not yet become a flame war, but I sense it heading that way.

Whether or not you think AOK's system is brilliant or retarded please rememeber to keep your posts about his system to just that - the system.

If you have problems with an actual poster, I'd recommend you try and deal with those problems through other means (chat, AIM, pms, whatever) than by calling that person out. Doing so accomplishes nothing, and takes away from actual advice/criticism that can be helpful to all of our games.

This has been an announcement from your friendly beginner's moderator. Now taking you back to your regularly scheduled programming.

ive been using using the 19 hand chart for a couple days now ..i'll post an update in a week when i have about 10 k hands ,,,

edit// im not a newb, and this isnt my first time playing texas holdem , but i am new to NL and im trying to learn the game (im a limit holdem convert)..most of the people that i know who learned limit and play well , used the SSHE starting hands charts when they first started playing until they felt comfortable with what they where doing and played accordingly to "their "style" afterwards , why is this so different? ..just a stepping stone to learn the game and how it works , i think everyone agrees (AOK included) that to move up in limits you need more considerable skill than a 19 hand playing chart ...

...

Hey Lambchop, I just read your post, good arguments. I will not defend Aok's charts/advices anymore because Aok probably will do it better, I just want to write about MY experiences with everything that Aok put on FTR forums.

I didn't learn postflop strategy from Aok, bu I did learn a proper discipline, tightening up and all basic stuff. Posts like "Psychology of losing" or "So, you want to be a pro" and other stuff "Tony Robbins style". Those posts were very eye-opening for me, so fundamental and to the point. That is what I define as "Aok teaching" - he harps on patience, discipline, willingness to fold a hand when it seems to be second best, fighting with tilt.

Another valuable entry is about "counterplay", too bad that post is removed because Counterplay if applied properly can tear apart standard $50NL table. At least on Boss Network

That chart about postflop play and very tight preflop play, limpfolding UTG KJos, mucking overpair against flop raise, half-potting pairs and potting stronger hands etc: Let's be honest, that system sucks on almost every table dynamics and even bad players can find exploiting lines against it if they think a bit. You know it, I know it, every other FTR'er knows it and Aok knows it too. Playing it against table full of FTR'ers would be a suicide and brings no point, I can see all that badass floaters that are ready to run over poor "19 hands defender" and push him off almost every hand. So much for those 25BB pots haha.

But following that chart is not to have strong non-exploitable game, it's just a crashcourse, tha SIMPLEST and LEAST COSTLY way to get going and starting to evolve. Hell, it doesn't have to be winning, just breaking even is fine. It's just for tightening up, fixing basic loose passive leaks and not spewing chips on hopeless situations. Maybe get some small profit on most donkish tables but it's just nice addition. Then and only then you go further, open up, grow some teeth etc. Unfortunately, Aok still haven't written "how to get past 19 hands" so that learning system is incomplete. But the first step did work for me, I tightened up, learned iron discipline and improved from big poker sucker to marginal winner. That's was HUGE step for me because I got fundamental psychological groundwork. That was THE purpose and it worked well.

I have some stats manually written in Excel, most of it is played by basic nit-style strategy which is SIMILAR to that one Aok presented. The difference is that I drop the hammer more often with overpairs and steal with reads against nits. If you want, Lamb, I can e-mail it for you. It's about 30-40k of hands.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

I've never used poker tracker or any other software to track my game.

You should. It helps a lot.

...

Originally Posted by aokrongly

That's cool wyldfoxx, i just wanted to give a chance to respond in more detail and not be a hit and run poster. I don't mind disagreement. I know the limits and faults of " chart" play as much as anyone else here. But I also know the benefits of discipline and consistency in a game that has mind numbing variance and frustration.

Thank you, AOK I appreciate your responce.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

...poker is that a system cant beat it. It is a game of incomplete information, and no system can beat such a game in the long run, period.

This is all I was trying to say. This comment was articulated. Mine was... not.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Can a system beat a low buy-in table full of weak passive players (or whatever 45%, 25BB pot is)? I believe this is true. Is the system better than playing even intermediate poker? No, and no one should claim that it is.

As for this comment... This is why I was being a dick in my earlier post. No one should be "learning" off a chart. Because as a new player everything you do gets etched in your brain. For instance... let's say your trying to learn how to play chop sticks on the piano. If you play every note in chop sticks right except on,e and continue to play it this way say for years, then when someone shows you the correct way to play your brain won't go oh ok and start playing it correctly you'll have to "re-learn" the entire piece and it will be 10 times as hard. So my point was this... if you LEARN to play poker like a robot you'll NEVER get the feel for the game. It's like lambchoppdc said...

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

It is a game of incomplete information...

To find the information you'll need to become a winning poker player, you'll have to experience it for yourself through trail and error.

I'm not defending myself against the same BS over and over and over again. You guys need to go back to your vaulted poker palaces and white towers continue your discussions about how aok is ruining poker.

AOK, i have confronted you several times. And this time i tried my best to focus on specific issues and topics and not trashing you as an individual. Please respect that and not use this same "i'm not dealing with this crap" line as you have used before.

As I said, there are alot of things you don't know. You just assume, presume and speculate.

Sorry, but thats what happens when you respond to very specific points with long, drawn out, vague, mysterious responses. When you leave room to speculate, people will.

I've never done anything but tried to help people. You guys have a fetish about me. I'm under your skin. I get it. This post has over 3000 views and hundreds of messages and to you think I'm an idiot and it drives you crazy. My posts are linked on the index page for FTR, and that's an outrage. 1 out of 3 of the Beginners Digest posts are by me or heavily contributed by me, and that's a crime against reason. The fact that people are seeing this and believing it... Oh my god! Poker is ruined. I'm teaching people to play tight preflop and bet 1/2 the pot with TPTK... AOK must be stopped.

You have a very confused understanding of what our motivations are, especially mine. I will get to that in a bit.

This always starts as a question about why play KJ in EP or why not play ATs on the button and turns into a bunch of BS about how I'm trying to raise an army, am a cult leader, am some sort of poker profiteer, or some other jackass theory. None of this is new...

Have you ever stopped to consider why this happens? Most of the time sir, its not what you say, its how you say it. But like i said, i'll get to that in a bit.

Now I'm "another Radashack" or "another rippy" or a cult leader. People who have interest in what I say are "disciples" and no longer thinking adult human being.

Once again, there is a reason for that, i'll get to it in a bit.

Still I've never made $10,000 in a single month. That's MY goal. But, I've got caught up into writing and helping people who want my help.

Although i completely disagree with your decision, it is your decision and I have to respect it. If helping people makes you happier than making $10k in a month, you obviously have different priorities in life, and there is nothing wrong with that.

My "Poker Conversations" was published in Online Gambler Magazine in the UK under Lou Krieger's name. I'll be happy to send you a copy and you can compare it to the original text.

Ok. Stop. Here is small example of what gets people like me fired up. If this really happened, congrats, but whether it did or not is irrelevant. Why include this? You had an article published...sweet...you are a good writer....good writers usually have things published. Hold that thought, i'll be back to it.

The point of all this is "What do you want from me?" you want hand histories??? I have 18 months of postings on FTR that outline every single thing I've done with poker. Good and bad. I've had horrible runs. I have horrible BR management. So, what? You take the good with the bad. But, do not assume or imply that what I'm doing now isn't backed up by a history of results, PUBLISHED writing, Careful Thought, etc. You disagree. That's why there are thousands of threads in FTR.

Noone ever said that you didnt put thought into your posts, you obviously do. Ok, now why is PUBLISHED in caps? All putting that in caps does is make you sound cocky and arrogant - "my writings are published, how DARE YOU criticize me?? WERE YOUR WRITINGS PUBLISHED?" Im pretty sure thats not the tone you wanted to use, but that IS how it comes across. Try and keep following my line here, i'm getting close to the heart of it.

You want hand histories, winning charts, shit from Poker Tracker. I've never used poker tracker or any other software to track my game. I don't keep my hand histories unless I'm working on some strategy (and if I did I wouldn't post them for you). And I certainly don't post my money anymore. I used to have the whole "here's my goal" signature line and all that.

Ok, why not? The whole point of hand histories is so you can analyze your play and results and find leaks. Thats one of the biggest lessons beginners need to learn. I highly suggest you rethink this decision. And i'm saying that as an actual suggestion to improve your game and your strategies. Dont read anything else into that.

I'm beyond the pissing contest...."look at me, please think i'm a good player" phase. There's plenty of that without me. I never posted my win in the winner's circle. Stuff like that has never appealed to me.

So bragging about your accomplishments in poker doesn't appeal to you, but going out of the way to say that your writings were PUBLISHED does? This is called irony. Do you see why?

I'm not sure what it would take to appease some people. Every time I try to respond with what you ask for I just get more shit for it. So I stopped. And I won't. Like me. Hate me. WHATEVER.

At the end of this post I will tell you exactly what it would take to appease people.

I will correct one thing. I don't believe that poker isn't a complex game. But, I've already stated over and over again why beginners often appreciate more of an ABC answer and less of a position paper on how wonderfully complex poker is.

What beginners appreciate and what they need to understand to become winning players are two completely different things.

I've posted alot more than just 19 hand and Performance Poker on FTR. The fact that this "thing" has turned into something with mass support, interest and appeal is a testiment (I think) to the fact that it does what I wanted it to do. Help Beginners! You think it brainwashes the masses. (Well, that's more suckers for you to beat, I guess. Be happy.)

There are plenty of suckers for me to beat without the ones that come to this forum looking for help.

I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. I've offered to leave FTR because of jokers like you and was asked to stay by people other than "disciples".

I have never asked you to leave, nor do I wish that on you.

I’ll do what I do. You can keep banging your head against the wall in these threads or you can start your own. But I’m done responding to BS… Others can do it for me, if they are so inclined. (you can insult them by calling them disciples and disregard the work they have put into their games long before - and will long after - this thread is ended.) But I recommend that BS be ignored from now on.

Wow dejavu, i've never heard this before. Maybe if you stepped up to the plate and debated some of these issues with us instead of making your "im high and mighty, all you losers are just jealous and hate me, i'm done with this BS, i'm not responding anymore" posts, we could resolve our differences and we wouldn't keep coming to this point.

BTW, this is posted at midnight because I spent the last 5 hours of my day reviewing hand histories from challenge participants and observing one participant play to confirm that yes he is having horrible luck, but is playing correctly - He's only up 10 table buyins since he started BTW instead of more. I get up early to help people. I spend my time during the day helping people. I stay up until 2 am helping people. 7 days a week. There are others who do this as well on FTR. Plenty of them. My favorite is Soupie. He spends hundreds of hours each month helping people play better MTT's. I do the same with low stakes NL ring. He does his through Ventrillo. I had to make a website because doing it through threads brings out this sort of BS. He teaches the very advanced complexities of high stakes, late stage MTT play. I teach ABC poker to people who think it might help them simplify their game.

STOP. No. Do not compare yourself to soupie, please do not. I wont go as far as explaining why you shouldnt cuz i'm not here to rip you apart. I'm here to work out this tension thats going on, otherwise I would.

Ok, end of the post, time to bring all those pieces together. The REAL REASON so many of us have a problem with you AOK, is NOT the fact that you have stickies, its NOT the fact that we disagree with your advice, its NOT the fact that we have anything against you personally. It IS the fact cult followings are a DISEASE to discussion forums such as this one, and you sir, have a cult following, period. The reason i made my last post is because one of your "disciples" did a great job of showing why cult followings are bad. There was a post criticizing your system, he responded to the arguments, which was fine, it was what he said afterwards that changes everything. By saying "If you have better ideas about teaching newcomers basics of winning strategy then write about it and don't shit on Aok's teachings because you dont know shit about teaching and learning processes. Aok knows. Period. ", the line was crossed.

When a cult following develops, free healthy debate ends. Those who are followers of the cult "leader" take any criticism of his words to be an insult. They then work quickly to put down the person attacking their leader and take it upon themselves to defend him. Do you see how this becomes a problem?

So why do we blame you for this? Because it is your responsibility to stop this. When i won my big tournament, I got a ton of PMs from beginning players, some actually saying I was their hero and their inspiration, and asking me for advice. I responded, answered any of their questions the best i could, and made sure they were perfectly clear that I was not some poker "god." Do i think that those people were not intelligent thinking people? Of course they are. But i understand the fact that someone playing on a $100 bankroll who sees me win his parents' annual salary in one nite is going to look up to me. I also understand that I am not the perfect poker role model and that they SHOULDN'T be looking up to me. I could have ran with that moment, wrote up a bunch of guides for MTTs and basked in the glory of every beginner of FTR thinking they were learning from the master. I could have done that, but I didnt, because I know better. If someone asks me for advice or help I give it to them, but i make sure they realize that just because it works for me, doesn't mean it will work for them. And i certainly dont let it go to my head.

So what then, you may ask, is our problem with you? Plain and simple, its attitude. You have allowed a cult to develop that worships you. When you see one of your supporters bash someone who's criticizing your strategies and tell them that you know all and they dont know shit...where are you? Why arent you stopping this?

I can put a pretty educated guess on why you dont stop it. The evidence is clear in your own words. You admit that you haven't made $10k in a month because you are too busy helping the masses of people who are always asking you to. And i cant say i dont understand, cuz I do. It feels good to have someone tell you that your thoughts and strategies helped them succeed. I know this, and so do you. So i ask you sir, and i want you to REALLY REALLY THINK about this. What is your motivation? Is it to help people become better players and succeed at the game, or is to get the pleasure that comes from people telling you that YOU are the reason they are doing well?

You see, if the first answer is actually the real answer, then some things dont add up. You would WELCOME our criticizisms of your "system" and encourage us to do it more. You would want to create the ultimate beginner poker strategy. You would want to debate every topic and change and fix the "Performance Poker" system until it was perfect. Thats what would really help new players.

Instead of doing this, you reply to criticisms saying "yah there are other ways, but mine is easier." MINE is easy to follow for beginners. MINE has helped people. MINE has been PUBLISHED. Do you see a trend here? Thats why you havent stopped the cult following. Thats why you let your followers defend you blindy to the death.

How do you end all of this? Stop talking about how many people you have helped, how your writings have been published, etc. etc. Show some HUMILITY. Its not your strategies that annoy us so much, its your stubborn defense of them and unwillingless to consider that maybe, just maybe, some of them are flat out wrong. The reason we keep asking for hand histories and pokertracker stats is because you talk yourself up so highly. Stop it! Stop building your image up so big and we wont have any reason to bring it back down to reality. You help people, thats great. You take hours and hours of your time to dedicate to this forum, thats fucking awesome, seriously. But when you insist on building up an image from that and pointing out constantly how great what you are doing is, it ruins it. It takes you from being a great person, to being an arrogant asshole. I dont think thats what you actually are, but thats the image you have built up in the minds of me and many others.

So which way sounds better to you?

A. Have a large group of people think you are the best person to walk the earth, and another large group hate your guts?

or B. Bring your image down a few notches and have everyone appreciate the time and effort you put in?

It doesnt have to be option A. All it would take is a simple change of attitude and to stop portraying yourself as "master" teaching "pupils" and to start portraying yourself as poker player helping poker players. There is a huge difference between those two things.

So there you have it, thats whats up. Thats the whole freakin point, laid out there in the open. This is not meant as an attack on you or an i'm better than you pissing match, its meant as a way to get this BS all out there at once and end it once and for all. I leave the choice to you sir.

...

OK, i'm not fully versed in all this 19 hand business, but i do know generally what its about. I don't really agree with the system, there are definate holes in it. By not calling (or re-raising) raisees without a near nut hand you are missing out on monstrous amounts of value--ESPECIALLY in loose passive low stakes games. I also don't agree in playing by a chart, though they are usefull, a chart cannot tell you how to deal wtih different table textures, the mood of the table, and your table image.

Poker is so much more a game of instinct and "feeling" than anything else, you can outline some basic concepts for beginners in a chart or a system, but by doing this you are also limiting them, they are not learning to "feel" the game. In my very limited poker coaching experience it is next to impossible to teach instinct and feel for the game--though this is likely cause by definition you can't really teach those things haha.

I do think this total nit system can win (at a vastly smaller winrate than is possible) at low stakes, but i think it does teach some bad technical habits to beginners. HOWEVER, what is good about it is that it teaches beginners discipline, which is far more important than actual strategy. I have always been a proponent of the belief that in poker making a well reasoned mistake is perfectly fine, but making an undisciplined play that you still win with isn't. So in this far more important aspect of poker i really like your system. It teaches beginners the key to winning poker, even if some of your strategy is "incorrect".

I do think (or hope) you have the right intentions with this poker coaching system, but just be careful. From what i have read you have alot to learn about poker still, but you also have alot of valuable advice to provide beginners with. Infact, many of your earliest posts were invaluable to me as a beginner about 15 months ago, and now i have had success beyond what i ever thought was within the realms of possibility.

Aok, your system has alot of great advice, but EVERYONE needs to make sure to never accept anything like this as fact, and remain open minded to other strategies and "systems". If both you and the beginners who use this system can accept that then i think your poker coaching has alot of potential benefits for alot of people, and i wish you good luck.

ps. I think it is a very bad business decision to offer a money back guarantee (poker money, maybe offering coaching money back is fine) on this. People will abuse this and not take poker seriously, and it could really screw you. I understand that you want to stand behind your system, but there are better ways to do this. Statistically relevant samples of hands are a good start, and your student's success stories are some that immediately come to mind with much less risk to you involved.

lambchopdc wrote:

Ok, end of the post, time to bring all those pieces together. The REAL REASON so many of us have a problem with you AOK, is NOT the fact that you have stickies, its NOT the fact that we disagree with your advice, its NOT the fact that we have anything against you personally. It IS the fact cult followings are a DISEASE to discussion forums such as this one, and you sir, have a cult following, period. The reason i made my last post is because one of your "disciples" did a great job of showing why cult followings are bad. There was a post criticizing your system, he responded to the arguments, which was fine, it was what he said afterwards that changes everything. By saying "If you have better ideas about teaching newcomers basics of winning strategy then write about it and don't shit on Aok's teachings because you dont know shit about teaching and learning processes. Aok knows. Period. ", the line was crossed.

Yeah, I admit, I went overboard with that statement. My bad, Sorry Wyldfoxx, that was too strong and unnecessary.

However...

I don't treat ANY of posters as "guru" and don't take anything written by him for granted. There are plenty of great posters here, narrowing focus to "the only one righteous teacher/poster" is a waste of those great forum resources IMO. Fnord, SmackinYaUp, Michael1123, Renton, Rondavu, Ilikeaces86, Aokrongly, Ultimate George, a500lbgorilla, Lukie and many others, all those guys have great insights and it's just plain stupid not to type their nicknames into search tool at least few times to find some great hidden knowledge.

System of Aok helped me in getting started, that's why I defended it. System of learning and Aok's teaching structure is good IMO, it's something more than "just sit down play some hands and post". That's why Aok knows. It's not some "guru following" crap, just positive experience after doing that stuff from stickies. What the hell, it worked for me, I understood it and if some poster says "it sucks", defending it was just knee-jerk reaction of mine.

...

yeah ok thats cool. its just something you have to be careful with. People often have trouble taking poker seriously as it is, and combine that with them having zero money on the line and you have a dangerous situation. I'm not saying it will happen, its just something to watch out for.

I didnt read all the drama in this thread, but it got me thinking about harrington's new book, where he goes over post flop play with quizzes can that be comparable to what AOK is trying to do here with his chart?

I mean truly post flop play has to be learned from experience but he's written a book about it, so how do you guys feel about that?

lambchop, good post. Wanted to tell you that I appreciate the time you took to write it.

I highly encourage everyone else to read the entire thing.

Originally Posted by shysti

I mean truly post flop play has to be learned from experience but he's written a book about it, so how do you guys feel about that?

I believe that the reason most people feel that great post flop has to be learned from experience is due to the nature of the problem.

The correct (best long term EV) course of action (fold, call, raise (and by how much)) are the output of a function driven off a large number of dependent variables. These types of problems are often solved through a set of techniques called regression analysis. Regression analysis involves looking at a large sample of the values for these variable and the correct corresponding outputs. When done properly, a model is developed that can be used to predict the appropriate outputs for other input values.

Fortunately for humans, our brains are built around neural networks. Neural networks, both biological and artificial, are particularly adept at solving problems that require regression analysis. This is one of the reasons that artifical neural networks and human brains 'learn' through experience. Each 'experience' provides another sample allowing us to refine our model.

This has an upside, through regression analysis humans effortless solve enormously complex equations. For instance, how much force should I be applying to the accelerator and break pedals as I drive. Take a moment and consider the ludicrous complexity of that equation and then compare that with the fact that most of you drive thousands of miles a year without incident.

This has a downside, from a conscious standpoint we are often completely unaware of how we solve the problem; from the standpoint of what variables we take into account, what weight we apply to these variables and how we believe these variables interact.

Because of the upside, some people are very good at solving the poker postflop play problem. Because of the downside, those same people are often in no position to explain why their play was correct (even though it was.)

As we are often unaware of the nature of the model we have created, we sometimes begin to believe that there is no model; we 'magically' feel the right answer due to our 'experience'.

But it is a model and can be expressed in a readable notation.

Authors like Harrington try to relate the primary driving variables, their general weights and their general inter-relationships. They then wisely put in a caveat that any given situation may not follow their simplified model. Because the All-In re-raise pre-flop from the super tight guy DOES have a different meaning if we see an ambulance outside the building, an EMT has just walked up and whispered something into the player's ear, upon which his face went white as a sheet, and he threw a panic stricken glance at the ambulance right before he pushed. Your neural net knows this, and has a variable for 'opponent is experiencing horrific personal tragedy' and has applied an enormous weight to that variable. But in practice, that variable rarely comes into play so it would be pointless for a poker book to mention it.

But for a lot of people whose internal model is not yet sufficiently complex, these guides can allow them to deductively arrive at a reasonable answer. All the while, most would agree that later in their career after they have sufficient experience, the player will likely intuitively arrive at a better answer.

Originally Posted by courtiebee

lambchop, good post.

Bmxicle said "Poker is so much more a game of instinct and "feeling" than anything else, you can outline some basic concepts for beginners in a chart or a system, but by doing this you are also limiting them, they are not learning to "feel" the game."

I agree with what you're saying, but I also think that learning a "feel" for the game is exactly what 19 hands can help with. When you start out as an absolute beginner, AOK's strat is like water wings - they keep you afloat even if your flailings are far less efficient than they could be.

The thing is, after a while, as you play, and watch, and learn, you will begin to realise that the simplicity of the strategy is necessarily sub-optimal; you will see people winning big with straightss, you will see people semi-bluffing and bluffing; you'll start to understand that while AK tends to have limited results, 56s can be the key to riches. And it's at this point that, with 19 hand's solid understanding of hand strength and the importance of discipline, that you can take off the water wings and start taking your first few tentative strokes under you own steam.

(p.s. I am far from being a disciple of AOK's, as he'd be the first to admit, but I do appreciate what he's trying to do with the guide. It's important to understand that a beginner making 1BB/100 is something to aim for and be proud of - most of the noobs are the people keeping you* in beer money)

*obv not keeping bmx in beer money, but keeping the not-quite-hopeless 25NLers like me in beer money

...

...

Originally Posted by Pyroxene

Originally Posted by shysti

I mean truly post flop play has to be learned from experience but he's written a book about it, so how do you guys feel about that?

I believe that the reason most people feel that great post flop has to be learned from experience is due to the nature of the problem.

The correct (best long term EV) course of action (fold, call, raise (and by how much)) are the output of a function driven off a large number of dependent variables. These types of problems are often solved through a set of techniques called regression analysis. Regression analysis involves looking at a large sample of the values for these variable and the correct corresponding outputs. When done properly, a model is developed that can be used to predict the appropriate outputs for other input values.

Fortunately for humans, our brains are built around neural networks. Neural networks, both biological and artificial, are particularly adept at solving problems that require regression analysis. This is one of the reasons that artifical neural networks and human brains 'learn' through experience. Each 'experience' provides another sample allowing us to refine our model.

This has an upside, through regression analysis humans effortless solve enormously complex equations. For instance, how much force should I be applying to the accelerator and break pedals as I drive. Take a moment and consider the ludicrous complexity of that equation and then compare that with the fact that most of you drive thousands of miles a year without incident.

This has a downside, from a conscious standpoint we are often completely unaware of how we solve the problem; from the standpoint of what variables we take into account, what weight we apply to these variables and how we believe these variables interact.

Because of the upside, some people are very good at solving the poker postflop play problem. Because of the downside, those same people are often in no position to explain why their play was correct (even though it was.)

As we are often unaware of the nature of the model we have created, we sometimes begin to believe that there is no model; we 'magically' feel the right answer due to our 'experience'.

But it is a model and can be expressed in a readable notation.

Authors like Harrington try to relate the primary driving variables, their general weights and their general inter-relationships. They then wisely put in a caveat that any given situation may not follow their simplified model. Because the All-In re-raise pre-flop from the super tight guy DOES have a different meaning if we see an ambulance outside the building, an EMT has just walked up and whispered something into the player's ear, upon which his face went white as a sheet, and he threw a panic stricken glance at the ambulance right before he pushed. Your neural net knows this, and has a variable for 'opponent is experiencing horrific personal tragedy' and has applied an enormous weight to that variable. But in practice, that variable rarely comes into play so it would be pointless for a poker book to mention it.

But for a lot of people whose internal model is not yet sufficiently complex, these guides can allow them to deductively arrive at a reasonable answer. All the while, most would agree that later in their career after they have sufficient experience, the player will likely intuitively arrive at a better answer.

Holy hell that was the best reply to a question I have ever seen

np biondino

dear Anthony,

How come you are not responding to some serious questions in this thread?

Love,
midas06

Originally Posted by midas06

dear Anthony,

How come you are not responding to some serious questions in this thread?

Love,
midas06

Dear midas,

Where in the ftr store are the pancakes with ftr logos? Does the rabbit come with the panckes, or are they separate?

Sincerely,

Bmxicle

To this day I never noticed that there was a pancake with an ftr logo on that rabbit in his avatar.

next to the thongs

...

Why don't you value bet the river?

Some sort of responce to lambchop would be nice too.

What is the difference between TAGG and "PAGG"

How many hands lifetime have you played and at what winrate?

...

...

...

...

I have been using the 19 hand system for the last few days and have been doing great. I love it.

There is one point I think that is missed about folding. In reading through many of the posts it is mentioned that someone with "more experience" could out play the table rather than fold. One example is the "firing a second Continuation Bet after the first one is called" rather than just folding. Another is folding to a raise.

These same people often complain about not getting paid on good hands.

Ironically, the two are related.

When I have followed the 19 hand plan and folded, the other player has often laughed at me. "lol I was bluffing" and "loser noob" are often what I get when I do that.

Well guess what? When I get my set or other nut hands and I call their raise or don't fold. Gee what do they think "Oh the little noob is showing one ball, time to really raise his ass and bet heavy or push" Hell I don't even have to worry about getting them to bet heavy on the River, they are doing it for me.

Damn, I really hate being a noob.

I just read a bit further down this thread and must say I did get a good laugh at all the "pros' cutting up the 19 hand system.

I have been in industrial sales for the last 20 years (the last 10 years with the same company proving I am a consistent producer). I have also been successful in coaching baseball and hockey with my teams always doing well in playoffs.

One thing that I have consistently noticed is people that "Know it All". Salespeople, hockey players, baseball players and NOW poker players who what to break the rules before they have even mastered the basics.

YES All rules can and should be broken at times. BUT until you fully understand the rules and have used them for a good period of time. YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHEN TO BREAK THEM! Too many people just start breaking the rules right away and as a result never learn a solid foundation of basic skills.

The number of times I have seen some hot shot pitcher who throws "his way" fail compared to the guy who listens, learns the basics and becomes a star pitcher is unbelievable. When the "his way" pitcher gets off track, no one can help him cause he is the only one who knows what he is doing. The well trained pitcher is easy to fix, just slow down and go back to the basics.

Currently, I am a winning player WITHOUT 19 hands. But I know I have leaks in my current game. My current game is what I have put together from reading FTR and other sites. It works, but it could be a lot better.

The reason I have moved to the 19 hands is that I want to have a solid basic game. One with no leaks.

Once I have mastered that and trained myself to be disciplined enough to follow it (Do I really have to fold ATs?!?). Then and only then will I move on.

Will this happen after 3 days of winning with it. NO. It will take a few months.

But once I have really put in the time, I will really know I will always have a solid tight basic game I can count on. Guess where I will be going back to when I move away from it and get into a tough negative variance?

So, does anyone want to make a bet on if I will become a strong winning player?

...

Whatever the pro's from Dover want to say about the system, they can't say it doesn't work.

I don't believe I've ever said you can't be successful playing monkey poker. What I have done though is point out the very serious flaws in your system. Flaws that you either defended with convoluted logic or didn't even address at all.

In addition, all the "success" you have listed is over a very short period of time and at micro stakes. I still maintain that your system will do absolutely nothing for the longterm development of a player and cannot be successful beyond micro stakes.

...

Touche. If you'd like to actually make a constructive argument though, I think we'd all like to hear it.

i'm the quote "up to 91.68..."

i'd like to say that i've never played online holdem previous to starting his challenge (and i'm only in day 5) although i've played around 50 hands in real life with friends. I took the challenge because i became interested in poker so i came here, read the articles and then i found performance poker and joined because of the gaurantee (if it was your first time playing online wouldn't you like to have that security blanket )

i've read a lot of threads against 19 hands and for it and i've taken it all into consideration. If it wasn't for AOK i would be playing shit hands and probably be a calling station or making rediculous bluffs (aka maniac). I'm only into day 5 and i'm up to $115 now (i was at 91.68 at day 3). There may not be a system to winning but this certainly has helped me not just raising my bankroll but drastically increasing my discipline. I realize that this isnt 100% and i can't rely soley on it but for now it is doing exactly what i think its meant to do (help me learn to play tight, patience, and discipline). It may not help me read the table or the players but i don't really think AOK thinks it can do that to begin with. The system is based off a generalization of how people play at low limits (in my limited experience the majority are lagg calling stations and this system helps to win against them)

OK guys it's time for me to post here.

Here is the mind set I want you guys in when you read this..

1) I want you guys to think about how many people make that first $50 deposit and lose it.
How many of you have done it? (I don't need relies from you poker gods who can say i ran my $50 into 50,000 as you are the exception not the norm)

2) The majority of poker players are losing players.
42.23% are winners
57.77% are losers
I have 195,874 hands in my PTDB of 32,575 players that I am basing this on.

3) There is a excess of poker information posted on here and other forums.
A new player can feel overwhelmed when they try and take it all in.

4) People can read it, but few can apply it.
You can tell them what to do, but they won't have the discipline to do it right.

3) AOK isn't preaching anything new.


Is AOK's system good?
IT DEPENDS!

Is AOK's system bad?
IT DEPENDS!

Does it work?
IT DEPENDS!

Can you go broke playing like this?
IT DEPENDS!

Can you make money playing like this?
IT DEPENDS!

Does it have flaws?
Of course, do does every poker style / player out there.

Can you go broke playing like this?
IT DEPENDS!

Is it perfect?
No, there is no perfection in poker.

Will it make a new player who has never played poker and allow him to crush the NL$1k game?
No.

Will it take a new player who has never played poker and show him a way that could break even or beat the NL $25ish games.
Yes

There is alot of fighting back and forth in this thread and alot of it can be viewed as correct from more than one angle.

AOK has taken his time to create a step by step guide of how to beat micro NL games. How many of you have tried to put yourself in the mindset of a new player and create a model of play that suits a neophyte? Into the mind of someone without the experience to know when to fold AA Post flop. AOK's system preaches the biggest skill in poker. DISCIPLINE! Lack of discipline will ruin any poker player regardless of how great or dumb they are. Poor discipline is worse than limp folding QJo in EP and then folding to a raise or not raising ATs when its folded to you on the button.


Let AOK create an army of nit noobs who have a limited poker game that isn't "optimal strategy".

Do you know whats going to happen to those guys? They will stay in the micro limits or adapt. Upon their uber tight and disciplined game they will add positional plays, they will add in more aggression, they will add in more hands, they will learn how to play back at you. They will do all the things that come with experience or they will fail to progress.


Take a moment and think about which is better way for a poker player to progress, someone with no experience to identify situations.
Should they start out too tight and then add hands in?
Should they start too lose and take hands away?

I personally know that it is easier to add hands in when you can recognize situations.

The people bashing AOK are the ones who have experience, talent, and the skill to see flaws in a cookie cutter poker system. They are able to write 2 page replies on why 19 hands are flawed because they are experienced.

Did they start out that way?

Do I believe AOK's system could make money?

Yes

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-39818.htm

These were played using the 19 hand strategy. Its not the biggest sample size in the world, but I would imagine that before they reach 200 table hours people would start developing the experience to grow beyond the 19 hand strategy.

AOK should use those stats for his site.

Originally Posted by mike4066

Do I believe AOK's system could make money?

Yes

I've never argued that it can't or won't make you money. There is a huge difference between telling people how to make money and telling them how to play poker though. A lot of the advice he has given is bad advise. The fact that you can make a little money following that advice is irrelevant.

DaNutsInYoEye, as an experienced player, would you rather:

1. play against a new player that is loose and trying to play poker
(with lots of leaks for you to exploit)

2. play against a 19 hand player that will be hard to exploit?
(yes you will be able to bluff him off many hands, but he will hurt you with nuts as well)

I agree with Mike4006, it is a very good starting point.

Although I find the system very boring to play, I have already fixed leaks in my game. When I go back to playing more normal, I will be much stronger than before I started the 19 hands.



PS I know few people that like playing poker more than winning money .
(those I do know like that are all on my buddy list )

...

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

DaNutsInYoEye, as an experienced player, would you rather:

1. play against a new player that is loose and trying to play poker
(with lots of leaks for you to exploit)

2. play against a 19 hand player that will be hard to exploit?
(yes you will be able to bluff him off many hands, but he will hurt you with nuts as well)

I'd take either. A 19-hand player would be very easy to exploit. The fact that you think they wouldn't be is the problem. That type of thinking is exactly why I'm even bothering to pursuit this.

The only people who seem to think that beginning players are mindless, disciple, idiots is you and your group who say that something as simple and effective as a 19 hand play chart and some strategic advice is going to ruin them forever.

It would be a rediculous to make a blanket statement that labels beginning players as stupid. It has never been my position that they are. Obviously everyone has to start somewhere. Are they inexperienced though? Yes. Are they uninformed? Yes. Grasshopper's statement that a 19-hand player would be hard to exploit is a perfect example of this.

This isn't a personal attack against AOK. It's criticism of his system. I am simply trying to point out what I think are problems with Performance Poker. Others have tried to do the same, but no one seems to want to address the content of our message. Instead you choose to focus on the delivery of it.

Perhaps if AOK and others would start to focus on the actual criticism instead of fixating simply on the fact that there is criticism then this discussion will get somewhere. The unwillingness or inability, as I'm increasingly beginning to think, of advocates of Performance Poker to discuss poker theory has prevented this issue from progressing. As a result, discussions have amounted to little more than bickering.

joining late. i think that the problem with a postflop 'system' that says if x, then y, is that it robs the new player of the experience of analysing the situation and deciding what to do (right or wrong). it is really the thought process behind what you do post flop, and not what you actually do that is important. so following a system will not actually help you improve at all. I know for me personally my game took a giant leap forward when i finally started to A)put people on a range of hands and play against that range B)fully think out my play for the hand, both on this street and on later streets.
if you are following a system you will not challenge yourself to develop these skills, without which, you will be lost.

DaNutsInYoEye I would be interested in how you would exploit a 19 hand player so easily.

The ways I see that the 19 hand player (once identified) could be exploited are:

Pre-Flop

1. You raise greater than 6BB anytime you see the them check/call pre-flop causing them to fold AJ,KQ,KJ,QJ and 22-TT.
2. Anytime you see them raise 5BB you re-raise them causing them fold top face cards and A’s.

Although this strategy would piss the 19 hand player off greatly, it wouldn’t really cost them that much money and you wouldn’t really make that much off of them given the few number of hands that come up an hour with 19 hand poker. Also, betting against a 19 hand player like this could screw you up against other players at the table. Because if you did this ever time, often you would be doing it with crap cards. In addition, depending on position, there would be times where you would have already folded before it got to them and they would get to play their cards. Finally, if you played them long enough, they would get AA and not fold. With this there would be a 50/50 chance of them paying off and my guess is that this one hand would pay off all the minor losses due to all the folds, so they would break even.

Summary Pre-Flop – Yes you can screw with them, but if they follow the system it will not hurt them that bad and that there is not that much money to be won from them. (At least not compared to a fish calling station or manic etc.)

Post-Flop

1. Again knowing their betting structure will allow you to push them off many pots. They bet half the pot, you raise and they will fold.
2. If they don’t get pushed off a hand, fold as they have to have a good hand.

This is an area where 19 hand players can be exploited for some reasonable cash. Made (non Nut) hands and C-Bets will be easy picking. The only problem is that anytime they get this far there is a VERY GOOD chance they are on a Good hand or Nut hand. If you are just betting into them every time, often you would be betting with much poorer cards leaving you open for some bad beats. Again table position and the number of other players in the hand will come into play. Will playing hard against the 19 hand player screw you up against other players? You may get them to fold with the re-raise with nothing in your hand, but someone else ends up out playing you. Again, you will piss them off because you will limit them to only playing nuts. How much will they lose over time? I am not sure, I think if they fold to the re-raises and they play the Nut hands, they will still come out ahead if they can take the boredom. (Ironically, this teaches them how to play against a Manic).

Summary Post Flop – YES, you can make money against them here. BUT you should really have your radar up, cause once they get this far, they may have a near NUT hand.


Final Summary –

If you want to piss off a 19 hand player to the point they leave the table it is fairly easy to do. Re-Raise Pre-Flop and on Flop and you will leave them very few hands to play. I don’t think you will make much money, but you will dominate them.

If you want to make money against a 19 hand player, it would be best to let them see the flop when they want to and then steal all their 1/3 to 2/3 pot flop bets. Again, folding anytime they show backbone as they have a Nut’s hand.

YES, 19 hand players can be beaten. But given the dynamics of a full table, I am not sure focusing on them as your fish would be the best plan. Personally, I would be much happier going after Manics, Calling Stations and Weak Post Flop players. With these people, C-Bets, Check Raise, Check All In, Slow Plays and other tactics would work much better. Because given the limited options of the 19 hand system players have, most of these tactics wouldn’t work against them.


DaNutsInYoEye, there are now 4 pages of posts to sift through. I think it is a bit difficult to find out your exact problems with the 19 hand system.

Would you mind summarizing them for me?
(And if it is not too much trouble, break them down by problems for new player vs experience player.)

Also, what other ways can the 19 hand system be beaten? (this is a learning forum after all)

Thanks

...

Is the 19 hand System only a Chart? (Let’s learn to Play Golf!)

I find it interesting to see how many people only refer to the chart and not the web-book. Everything on the Chart is explained in detailed in the web-book and why you make certain actions. From my understanding, the Chart is supposed to be used as a reference while you are playing.

Let forget about poker for a minute and pretend we are going to learn golf.

One way is to talk to all your buddies, buy some golf books, read some golf magazines and check out the Performance Golf web site (Har! if there is one). Take all this advance information, like how to fade the ball, get backspin on your approach shot, how to lob it on the green and step up to the tee and start playing $100 a hole. Don’t worry because you shot that is going out of bounds has some back spin on it and that is key.

Many people start out like that, well maybe not $100 a hole, but it is how they learn golf.

Others go to a golf pro and take lessons. Do they head out to the golf course and start playing a round with the pro? Learning how to spin the ball and fade it? No, they head to the driving range.

At the driving range, the pro breaks it down to the very basics. How to stand, hold the club, swing etc. Now when finished with the lesson, often the pro will give them a one or two page chart summarizing what they learned. Something for them to go over quickly before going golfing. (LIKE THE PERFORMANCE POKER CHART!)

Next Saturday when the new player heads out with his pro buds, is he going to beat them. NO! Will he make some good shots, maybe get a boggy on a par 3? Likely.

He will soon have a solid very basic game.
Will he suck in the ruff? Yes.
Will he suck in the sand? Yes.

But he is on his way to being a good player. He will add these over time.

If he stays with this basic system and never learns anything more about golf, will he NEVER beat his friends? YES.

See any similarities with learning to play poker?

pgil

Every Long Term Winning Player uses a System.

The system may be simple or complex.

The player may be aware of it or may not be.

Many people that are not aware of their systems, they say they go by Gut Feel. Want to guess what that gut feel is? It is your subconcious mind kicking in the system you are not aware of.

Total randomness or lack of system will not work.

I challenge anyone to look at their betting/playing patterns over the long run and not see strong patterns "systems" of their play.

Can most systems be broken down to a one page summary? Probably not, but maybe.

Unfortunately, there is no getting away from it that we are creatures of habits. Hopefully we have good habits or at least develop good ones!

the fact is that pretty much anyone can beat tables like that. easily.

to take your golf analogy a little further (even though it isnt really an apt analogy, it will suffice i think), you could look at the driving range as the preflop portion of the game. its pretty straightforward when you start out. you start with the basics, and then you can build on them later. you get a good swing, a good stance, grip, etc. this isnt to say that the drive (preflop) isnt complex, because it is, but it is a lot easier to just get the basics down. you can have a decent game hustling people at the driving range if all you did was practice that. if you want to really be able to play golf well, you need to learn how to play the short game. this is what separates the good from the great (also the pretty bad from the horrendous). this is post flop play.
you can use some of the basics that you learned on the driving range, but its not nearly as cut and dry. there are too many things to be considered to just play a by the book strategy. can you hit the ridge from here, if not what would you do? how good are you at chipping medium distances on a fast green? where is the pin positioned, what are the hazards like, etc. the list is pretty well endless. sure you could play a longball game here as well and just hit the damn thing as far as it will go and hope that all goes well. you may even do alright. but this will stunt your growth as a player because you will not be forced to examine the situations and select the best shots to be made. so, in the future, when you are finally faced with a difficult decision that could decide the match, do you lay it up, or do you go for the green?? the problem is twofold: first, you dont really have a good shortgame, so laying it up isnt really going to help you too much, and second, you have no idea how to go about examining the situation. you dont know how to factor wind into your shot trajectory, or if the presence of this particular wind will make your shot impossible. you dont have the experiene of making these decisions countless times before because you avoided them to make the learning process easier. but by the time you figure this out, you've moved up in levels and it is a hell of a lot more expensive to find out that you cant plant a 50 yard chip with the wind at your back onto a fast green, so you end up in the pond.