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  1. #1

    Default New 19 hand play chart

    (update 19 hand must be the most viewed and discussed system of poker in the history of FTR with over 7000 views here, plus there are 2 other threads of over 2500. You'll need to search for them. That's pretty cool!!)

    THE LATEST VERSION OF THE 19 HAND CHART WAS UPDATED AUGUST 13, 2006. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT VERSION THEN go get it. If you don't know where to get it then PM your email address to me............ (also available is the HOH system and Chart for SnG and MTT's, a 6-Max strategy guide, and coming soon will be a system for beating most NL50-200 tables.)

    Sorry I haven't been posting for a bit. I've been organizing Performance Poker and the 19 hand playing method so it's available to everyone. You can get it at www.performpoker.com. There's a 19 hand chart that anyone can print out and use at www.performpoker.com/quick.pdf or go to my profile on FTR and email me. And for those who want the whole story on 19 hand holdem, the book is there for free (section 1).

    GL at the tables. If you have questions, let me know!!

    To get the link to the chart, Performance Poker - No Limit! book, and the Performance Poker challenge just CLICK THE EMAIL LINK BELOW and email me.

    Thanks,
    aok

    If you are interested in more articles by me then below is a mini-digest of some of my articles on FTR.

    I have dozens more free articles on NL Ring, MTT, SnG, 6-Max and my book PERFORMANCE POKER - NO LIMIT! available in full online. Just email me (by clicking my email link below) or PM me (by clicking the PM button below) and I will send you the link to all my writings.

    You can see this in action here:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...753&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-37660.htm

    Here's a mini AOkronlgy Digest:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...057&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...957&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...652&highlight=
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    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...199&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...196&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...386&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...530&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...156&highlight=
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    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...642&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=188610#188610
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...763&highlight=
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    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...539&highlight=
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...263&highlight=
  2. #2
    AOK,

    I'm getting error 404s when I try to access the second link and some of the sidebar links.

    J

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  3. #3
    Just been perusing the site. Very smooth, looks nice, great job from what I've seen so far. I will be spending the rest of my day looking it over. I was supposed to start HOH 1 & 2 today but maybe I'll put it off a day.
  4. #4
    Halv's Avatar
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    There's a "." on the end of the links, take that out and things should be fine .
  5. #5
    Yeah, got it now!

    Great site though and one that I fear I shall be spending a lot of time on... Aok, I suspect that my girlfriend will not thank you!

    J

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  6. #6
    Are you accepting new registrations? I tried to Register and nothing happened. Thanks for the starting hand sheet BTW.
  7. #7
    Just a note of thanks, AOK.

    I've driftted too far afield of the basics and need to get reoriented. This oughtta do it.
  8. #8
    Looks good aok.
  9. #9
    Muxy's Avatar
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    i play blackjack by a chart, not poker...

    anyways good job
  10. #10
    Hey, thanks for looking at it. Yea, I announced it this moring when my programmer (my wonder wife Donna) was still finalizing it. There are a few broken links still, but it's 95% right.

    To register for the challenge the link should open your email. You can alway click contact aok or Pm me here or do anything you want to let me know. The website doesn't have a back end database yet, so I'm just doing everything through email at [email protected]. Feel free to use the address. I really want everyone to register for the challenge because it helps me perfect performance poker and get the kind of data and feedback I need to do that.

    Keep playing strong!!
  11. #11
    Sounds good, I'm going to read all the steps later tonight. Maybe I'll take "the challenge".
  12. #12
    Hey Aok

    The chart should be renamed to "The Nit's Guide to Low Variance Routine Poker" , so many ifs and thens, like in computer program but I think it's winning strategy on MOST loose tables. I started out following that strategy and turned my $30 into several grands (cashed out every month so without redepositing). Solid stuff.

    But the chart itself and its wisdom lies in trained discipline, and discipline is first skill to learn, then comes mathematical edge from cards. That should be even put in disclaimer
    It gives small edge against semi-decent players, is easy to exploit purposefully (floaters) and accidentally (crazy maniacs/hand overplayers).

    I like that site, thanks for valuable knowledge.
    "How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
  13. #13
    Looks nice.
  14. #14
    Vrax. you rock buddy!! I know exactly what you're saying. That's why I put the rest of Section 1 of the book and some articles onthe site. As I get feedback and suggestions I'll keep adding content. Plus I'll keep adding stuff and helping people here on FTR.

    FTR is such an important tool for anyone who wants to get good at poker.

    ....

    Thanks Jack!! You're too advanced probably to take the challenge, but I would love you to email me some feedback on the content on the site.

    Thanks.
  15. #15
    mrhappy333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameseyb

    Great site though and one that I fear I shall be spending a lot of time on... Aok, I suspect that my girlfriend will not thank you!

    J
    Ditto....
    3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
  16. #16
    Aok,

    What sort of level would you say would be too far advanced to register for the challenge? I'm really interested in taking it, but I've been playing for over a year now and might have too many bad habits to effectively use your system.

    I'll certainly be reading the info you've got on your site though. Thanks for putting it up!

    J

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  17. #17
    Aok on His Site wrote:

    The way you bet and the table image you will have means you will only be raised by a hand that beats TPTK or a big overpair MOST of the time.
    Not if you c-bet 100% of heads-up pots.


    Here are some examples. You raise preflop with KK and get 3 callers, the flop is J high, you bet ½ the pot and someone raises. You fold...
    You have AK and raise preflop. The flop is K high. You bet ½ the pot on the flop and get called. The turn is a random card. You bet ½ the pot again and your opponent pushes. FOLD.
    Stacks sizes in those situations (and in truth ANY situations) play huge role.

    $25 tables, someone has 50-70BB behind and probably makes a stand, makes free-card move, feels up his QQ or something else. Overpair stand a lot more pressure on that texture. 100BB behind or more it's more poker to play, but mucking it right after single flop raise is weakass especially against someone who is likely to be pissed off after being isolated and c-bet off most pots. The more you c-bet, the wider range is going to play back at you on the flop.

    Second situation: Again, stack sizes. The power of "all-In" is dependent of stacks sizes (it's obvious for us but may not be obvious to some random dude that will start to incorrectly fold his TPTK against somebody who goes all-In with 30BB behind and hoping for the best with his KJ).

    A lot of my profits is from 3-bet and drop the hammer my overpairs and busting top pairs & aggros with draws. Performance Poker player c-bets a lot of pots, bluffs with overs all the time, isolates other players and should really loosen up against flop raisers, that are more likely to play back at c-bettor, than be stronger than overpair.

    However, it's different when you don't c-bet so much, are known to check down missed overs and second pairs head-up, and bet the flop only after hitting it hard or having at least overpair to flop. Then, if some thinking, deep stacked player will pop you on flop (knowing you are super-nit that bets ONLY with a hand), it's much stronger and one pair hands are in trouble more frequently.
    "How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
  18. #18
    What percentage of flops do you see (within 3%)? Don't guess, if you don't KNOW then you're a bad poker player. "It depends" is wrong.
    Could you please elaborate on this AOK?
  19. #19
    Halv's Avatar
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    I think I disagree with the "it depends" statement. I know my total flop % over time is around 30, but it depends on the table I'm playing. If a table is limp-happy I'm seeing a lot more flops than if the table is raising alot preflop.

    Aok's real point I believe is that you need to have a plan and execute it.
  20. #20
    30% is mighty loose. (for another thread)
  21. #21
    Most people play poker by the seat of their pants. They have general knowledge and just react to what's going on at the table. They don't create consistent long-term wins because they don't have a plan and the information and beliefs to execute the plan in a consistent and confident way.

    I'm not saying Everyone is like that. I'm saying the vast majority of people are.

    The purpose of the questions in Step 1 of Performance Poker is to show that there is a more consistent, professional way to play poker for most people.

    "It Depends" may be true if:

    You really know what it depends on.
    You have a plan of action for what you are trying to accomplish and know what you are going to do in different situations.
    You ACT on your plan as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    The point is that you Can professionally manage your game, and Performance Poker is a method of playing a managed game.

    If you're playing what I call "odds poker", then you might call more on a very limp prone table, because you get more drawing odds to do so. (However, and this is a big part of Performance Poker - No Limit!, A LOT of what people are doing at the tables are based on books that are written for Limit and that are written for Single Table Live Play. Performance Poker - No Limit! is written for Online Multi-table NL Ring play. The details are explained in the introduction to the book, include why I think there's a major difference between those two approaches.)

    In Performance Poker we're taking advantage of the weak/passive play by Not loosening up and by getting paid more when we do hit. Because along with the Reward of getting better drawing odds comes the Risk of having a lot of very unseeable hands. For instance, If I raise preflop 5xBB and the flop comes A88, I'm not THAT worried about the 8. But if I limp into a multiway pot with AT and the flop comes A88, I have to recognized that anyone could have an 8 in their hole cards.

    So, the point of the questions is really this "Have you even considered doing these things?" and if you have considered it "Have you actually done it?"

    If you haven't, and you want to create a disciplined, consistent game that you can play with confidence over the long-term, then take this opportunity to put your "play by the hip" game aside and learn an organized, managed game (i.e. Performance Poker - or at least the 19 hand version found in section 1 of Performance Poker - No Limit!) Once you do THAT, then you can apply the Principles of a Managed Game to your natural tendecies and game style and CREATE your OWN "Performance Poker" game that has the best of both worlds.

    The "how to create your own game" will be in section 2, which corresponds with PHase 2 of the website. Which corresponds with some very powerful Game Analysis tools that have to be created over the coming months.

    I hope this helps!!

    GL
  22. #22
    Halv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warpe
    Quote Originally Posted by HalvSame
    I think I disagree with the "it depends" statement. I know my total flop % over time is around 30, but it depends on the table I'm playing. If a table is limp-happy I'm seeing a lot more flops than if the table is raising alot preflop.
    The "it depends" statement I'm referring to is this one from Aok that was quoted in the post before mine:
    What percentage of flops do you see (within 3%)? Don't guess, if you don't KNOW then you're a bad poker player. "It depends" is wrong.
    I should have said "I disagree with the "It depends" is wrong statement", as I think that it DOES depend. Aww crap, I'm getting dizzy trying to rephrase here. My meaning comes through now, right?

    30% is mighty loose, btw. (for another thread)
    Lol yeah, I just pulled that number straight out of my big ass. This emphasizes my point that I do not think about my flops seen percentage very much. I do have a plan for each hand I see the flop with, though, and THAT is what I think matters.

    FWIW PT says I'm 16/7 over a huge sample of 3k hands. I'm going to wait until I have a bigger sample size before deciding wether to actively make adjustments to this (and yeah, this is for another thread which I will create when the time is right, so let's get back to the topic at hand ).

    Edit: and when I spend fifteen minutes trying to arrange my quotes, Aok steps in and explains.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by HalvSame
    FWIW PT says I'm 16/7 over a huge sample of 3k hands.
    You had me worried there for a minute.
  24. #24
    The great thing about poker is that there are many roads to winning play. There are very similar roads to poor play however. And break-even to losing players are generally at the corner of LOOSE and UNDISCIPLINED. If you want to know how to get there you go north on CANTFOLD, turn left on LOVESUITED, go past AXISGOLDEN, and merge right on WHATSAKICKER. When you arrive at LOOSE and UNDISCIPLINED there will be a fellow there to collect your heavy toll for choosing to drive around on the most expensive toll roads on the internet. When you leave there you can set your new course to the corner of HOPES and DREAMS. Because that's what most people play when they play losing poker.

    That was fun.
  25. #25
    animal_chin's Avatar
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    How come when I click on the second link and open the file, it is a MS Word document with 1494 pages of random characters and page breaks?
    (10:08:39 PM) Bbickes: animal chin is pretty much the balla i wanna be
    (10:08:44 PM) Bbickes: drinking every night
    (10:08:48 PM) Bbickes: and ballin hard all day
  26. #26
    I have been hesitant to try 25/50nl, but now that i have the performance poker guarantee i may as well. Will report back wtih results.
  27. #27
    The chart is a PDF, not a word file. Get the PDF reader and you'll be able to see it.

    Bmxicle, be sure to register to take the challenge.
  28. #28
    I have a couple questions if you don't mind.

    At what levels is this kind of play effective on?

    At those said levels, how much money can someone really make implementing your strategies?
    Think big, or suck.
  29. #29
    Hey AOK... I'm making the transition to ring. Mind if I take your challenge? (By the way, I just want to learn under your wing and rules. I don't actually care if you reimburse me )

    Get your own operations graphic here:
    http://operations.talkingapes.com
  30. #30
    Bailey Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bmxicle
    I have been hesitant to try 25/50nl, but now that i have the performance poker guarantee i may as well. Will report back wtih results.
    BMX... ROFL
  31. #31
    IMPORTANT UPDATE. There was an error on the chart. Please get a new one. AK should not call a push preflop. it was a typo. Just get the new chart off the site.

    FORTUNE you're always welcome. Thanks for the vote of confidence. You'll be one of my Performance Poker Level 2 guinea pigs.

    DLC, the 19 hand version works on any 9-10 player tables where there is more than 45% preflop callers and more than 25xBB average pot. If you can get over 50% and over 45xBB that's best. That combination of numbers equals fishy, floppy, loose, calling, passive, play. In those instance, 19 hand works really well. Generally, though you're talking about NL10, NL25 and maybe NL50 depending on the site. But you have to find the sites.
  32. #32
    aokrongly: The site looks great. Congratulations!
  33. #33
    thanks buddy. Let's see if it's effective in helping people. That's the test.
  34. #34
    In the secion labeled "Playing Nut and Near Nut Hands" it says, "Bet 1/2 the pot on the flop." Rule #4 says, "Don't bet NUT HANDS until the turn."

    Is this a mistake or do I misunderstand the chart?
  35. #35
    I guess that's not clear. They go together in that you WILL be on the flop If you have a nut hand, but you don't want to bet it LIKE a nut hand until the turn. So, on the flop I'll throw out a 1/2 pot sized bet, but on the river I'll play it like a nut hand (which is wide open depending on your take on the situation). I may check/raise. I may bet 2x pot. I may push. I may min raise. Whatever it takes to stretch out the betting and/or get as much money in the pot as possible. But I can see they appear to conflict.
  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by aokrongly
    I guess that's not clear. They go together in that you WILL be on the flop If you have a nut hand, but you don't want to bet it LIKE a nut hand until the turn. So, on the flop I'll throw out a 1/2 pot sized bet, but on the river I'll play it like a nut hand (which is wide open depending on your take on the situation). I may check/raise. I may bet 2x pot. I may push. I may min raise. Whatever it takes to stretch out the betting and/or get as much money in the pot as possible. But I can see they appear to conflict.
    Got it. Thanks.
  37. #37
    Pay4myCad!!'s Avatar
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    Looking forward to trying it out Aok,
    I'll use yer link to register @ FT when I get outta work.

    One question- Is it correct to assume that 10-seat tables are preferred over 6-max? Naturally the blinds are hitting more, but what other factors are involved?


    Thx
    Of course I have bad days...
    Sometimes I'll go a whole day without quads.
  38. #38
    Yeah you should definately play the 19 hands at full ring, which is more suited for nutcamping-type strategies.
  39. #39
    I posted here a few days ago asking Aok if I could play along, as I'm switching from SNG to Ring, and this seemed like a great place to start.

    Now, I probably have more experience than the average beginner on here. I've been playing for almost 3 years and have a pretty good amount of hands under my belt, but I cut my teeth on SNGs and that's where I've stayed.

    I enjoy the SNG format... the aggression, the adaptation to an ever changing environment. But I needed a new challenge, and it seemed to me that the people that are making any significant amount of money at this game are playing ring. I'm at the point where I'd like to in the next couple of years turn poker from a hobby to at least a substantial part of my income. I decided to go with Ring.

    Now, I've played Ring before. I probably have around 10,000 hands of 10 and 25NL under my belt... But I was about a breakeven player. I was taking SNG style and adapting it to a ring game, and it was killing me slowly. So I went back to SNGs.

    By the way, when I say I was "breakeven" I mean what most poker players mean when they say they're breakeven... I was leaking money like a damned sieve.

    Long story short...I read AOK's site/book... whatever it is. I talked to him about the challenge. I had very little interest in his gaurantee. I think it's a great gaurantee for new players, but I trust AOK to steer me right, and frankly, blowing off 50 bucks isn't going to kill me... so I waived it and he agreed to help me out.

    I played the system religiously yesterday. I sat down at 4 tables yesterday, and played the system.

    For someone like me that likes to "play poker" it's a bit frustrating. The system will make you fold when you know you can win a pot...

    But as I played more and watched these people, I figured out that trying to sell bluff to these people is worthless. A good bluff is art... but trying to sell a bluff to these people is like trying to explain the value of a Picasso to someone with a living room full of Velvet Elvises. It's just not worth it.

    It dawned on me quickly that the loose, artsy style of poker I've been playing is the reason I lose at Ring.

    I ended up 8 buyins yesterday, if that says anything to anyone. I recognize positive variance when I see it... but a large part of it was the system, not just the luck breaking my way.

    Aok is on to something here. He's also been great in giving me one on one feedback when I've asked him questions.

    Get your own operations graphic here:
    http://operations.talkingapes.com
  40. #40
    Pay4myCad!!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortune 500
    I ended up 8 buyins yesterday, if that says anything to anyone. I recognize positive variance when I see it... but a large part of it was the system, not just the luck breaking my way.
    What table limits were you playing Fortune?
    Of course I have bad days...
    Sometimes I'll go a whole day without quads.
  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Pay4myCad!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortune 500
    I ended up 8 buyins yesterday, if that says anything to anyone. I recognize positive variance when I see it... but a large part of it was the system, not just the luck breaking my way.
    What table limits were you playing Fortune?
    A mixture of 10 and 25NL.

    Like I said, still learning this ring thing.

    Get your own operations graphic here:
    http://operations.talkingapes.com
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Pay4myCad!!
    Looking forward to trying it out Aok,
    I'll use yer link to register @ FT when I get outta work.

    One question- Is it correct to assume that 10-seat tables are preferred over 6-max? Naturally the blinds are hitting more, but what other factors are involved? Thx
    Good Question! 19 hand is designed for 9-10 player tables. I tell people if the table drops down to 7 then move. The 19 hand version of Performance Poker is too tight and not agressive enough for short tables like 6-max.

    Go ahead and email me through the site. I want to get some background on your play and put you in my system so you can send me hand histories, ask questions and whatnot. There's a TON of information that I'm emailing to Performance Poker contacts. It's not that I'm not willing and happy to help people with Performance info and tactics on FTR. I'm always happy to answer questions. But you turn a corner when you commit to working the strategy and accepting a little oversight. A lot of what I'm sharing and sending people through the website would start a flamewar on an open forum, but when you're actually implementing the strategy and are immersed in the logic of it you say, "AHHH, now I see what you mean." The majority of insights into Performance Poker require you to get the advice immediately upon experiencing some aspect of the game (either good or bad).

    And, finally, there is a Section II of Performance Poker that is beyond 19 hand. And there's a Phase II of what we're going to do with it. 19 hand is just a training wheels game for Phase II. But I won't put anyone in phase II later this year unless I know they understand phase I (i.e. 19 hand). And again, the 19 hand aspect is just one small part of what Performance Poker is all about. It's the training version. From there we are going to apply the Performance Poker Principles to higher stakes, different games, etc.

    Anyway, there are alot of reasons to let me know if you're going to put some serious effort into the 19 hand strategy. If you email me then you'll get a lot more information, personal feedback, hand history reviews, and will be top of the list for entry into Phase II.

    Sooo... in the future you can kill 6 max with Performance Poker, but it won't be 19 hand. It'll be a 6-max Performance Poker Strategy. And I'm sure we'll share the discussion worthy aspects of it on FTR. That's why we're all here. To help each other.
  43. #43
    Pay4myCad!!'s Avatar
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    Thx for the feedback, just sent off an e-mail through the site.

    And I wish the best of luck to anyone else willing to try the 19 hand system. I don't really think I'd have a problem showing profit without it, but I'm willing to try for a combination of reasons. Mainly, I'm a (modestly halfway-decent) limit player- I imagine it would take me at least 3-4 times longer to clear FT's bonus at limit games, especially short tables where the ability to get reads on the select group of opponents comes in handy. On a full table the bonus will rack up that much faster... We'll see how it goes.
    BTW, I'll volunteer to be the first to 'tip the dealer'. Just a reminder to show Anthony some appreciation after using the system. I would say... if it's successful, but really I don't see how it can't be.
    Of course I have bad days...
    Sometimes I'll go a whole day without quads.
  44. #44
    Aok, You've convinced me! I'll get my signup email in to you in the next few days for your system and I will see how it goes. I'm sick and tired of being another "breakeven" player (in exactly the same way that Fortune 500 means it) and if you can get me into the black and winning consistantly, I'll be happy to sing your praises!

    Expect mail when I get back from Edinburgh.

    J

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  45. #45
    Just sent you an email on the site as well. I've read all of section 1 and have been trying it out on my own and so far so good.

    I haven't done all the exercises but I did the I always fold ones and I think they've helped, I can finally fold AT, after writing it like 100 times.

    I had a question though. "In my old game" (i know dreadful words huh) I would make a few blindsteals on the button, if everyone folded to me. Sometimes it help me stay around 100BB and sometimes I got burned. Playing performance poker yesterday, i was down to 80BB on all 4 tables, and passed up many opportunities to blind steal. Was wondering if you ever implement blind stealing later, and what your views on it were with 19hand performance poker.
  46. #46
    Tried to register to give some feed back but couldn't get to the page. I'll try later. Going to start this on Stars over the weekend. Right after freeing up this party bonus.

    Fixed it. It was trying to open outlook but I use hotmail. I just emailed you through that instead. Should we keep asking questions here or should we go to your site?. What would you prefer?
  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    Just sent you an email on the site as well. I've read all of section 1 and have been trying it out on my own and so far so good.

    I haven't done all the exercises but I did the I always fold ones and I think they've helped, I can finally fold AT, after writing it like 100 times.

    I had a question though. "In my old game" (i know dreadful words huh) I would make a few blindsteals on the button, if everyone folded to me. Sometimes it help me stay around 100BB and sometimes I got burned. Playing performance poker yesterday, i was down to 80BB on all 4 tables, and passed up many opportunities to blind steal. Was wondering if you ever implement blind stealing later, and what your views on it were with 19hand performance poker.
    You definately need to get signed up and let me see where you're playing and your hand history. Typically blind stealing on NL ring is pointless. If all you're doing is stealing the blind. There are better opportunity to take advantage of limpers who typically call a raise and then fold to pressure after the flop. 19 hand doesn't say to do that. I'm just saying, if you're playing NL100 for instance and you steal the blinds then you stole $1.5. However, if you're on the button and there are 2 limpers who you have observed will play loose preflop but fold to pressure after the flop then you raise to $5. So one calls and one fold. Now the pot is $12.50. The flop comes and you bet $10. The remaining player folds. Here you stole $7.50 instead of $1.50.

    But the short answer is typically 19 hand you don't need to steal. However, table stats matter. That's why I need to see your hand histories and know the table stats where you're playing. Without getting bad beats it's hard to drop 80BB with 19 hand. That's one of the powerful aspects of the system. It's about as safe as poker can be.
  48. #48
    If you're registered for the challenge then ask there when you send me hand histories and whatnot. If you're just doing it on your own and have questions, feel free to ask here. But anyone can email me through the feedback on the site.
  49. #49
    BankItDrew's Avatar
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    I disagree and agree with much of the pdf, but that being said...

    I have a problem maximizing my big hands. ie. I never bet more than the pot unless raised on the river with near nuts. How can I change this? I though NL was a game of value betting.
  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by aokrongly
    DLC, the 19 hand version works on any 9-10 player tables where there is more than 45% preflop callers and more than 25xBB average pot. If you can get over 50% and over 45xBB that's best. That combination of numbers equals fishy, floppy, loose, calling, passive, play. In those instance, 19 hand works really well. Generally, though you're talking about NL10, NL25 and maybe NL50 depending on the site. But you have to find the sites.
    I find its hard to find tables at more than 25xbb and 34% pf callers. I play at pokerstars and party poker at 25NL. I just may sign up and see how this system does. I started playing it for a a few hours but the only problem with it is how you say all 19 hands are positionaly independent or however you worded it. I dont like playing QJ or KJ from UTG or early position. Do you find this a mistake folding these?
  51. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by BankItPayette
    I disagree and agree with much of the pdf, but that being said...

    I have a problem maximizing my big hands. ie. I never bet more than the pot unless raised on the river with near nuts. How can I change this? I though NL was a game of value betting.
    Betting nut hands is an experience thing. There's no real rule for it. So much of it depends on your opponents. Alot of times I'll do a draw bluff when I have a nut hand. Say I have 99 and the flop comes 9t4 (a straight draw, or a flush draw doesn't matter). I'll bet 1/2 the pot, then the turn comes if the straight or flush doesn't hit I'll check. Then on the river, I'm hoping it misses again and I overbet. Then it looks like I was on the draw and am now trying to steal. Obviously if you can get the other guy to bet into you and not reveal your hand until the river, that's good. It depends on the nut hand too. Ifyou have a FH and there's a flush draw, let them draw to it. You're hoping somone hits the flush. Then you can put them All In. I'm not a fan of value betting on the river. Bet big, either they call or they don't but if you can get 2 out of 3 to call a 2xpot bet or push, then that's better than getting 3 out of 3 call 1/2 the pot bet.

    Good luck. I understand how you can disagree with the chart. It's not a general use chart. It's tailored to high flop high pot size tables with lots of limpy callers. There are other ways to play other table conditions.

    See ya.
  52. #52
    Aok, I greatly enjoyed your site and it's great that you're offering up your knowledge and expertise for free.

    I read the entire thing, and plan on reading through it again so I can hammer that advice of yours into my head.

    I used some of your tactics and tips (such as betting only half the pot with TPTK) and I've had great results (more calls).

    You deserve a standing ovation AND a pat on the back for your work.

    Thank you.
  53. #53

    Default betting on the turn?

    Hi Aok, thanks so much for the chart and the site it has really helped me.
    I have a question about continuation bets according to Performance Poker.
    If for example I have AK, raise preflop 5xbig blind and get one caller and the flop comes J high. I bet 1/2 the pot and my opponent calls.
    The turn is a random card that didn't help me.
    Do I then bet 1/2 the pot again or do I check and fold when he bets?
  54. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Atlplayer85
    Aok, I greatly enjoyed your site and it's great that you're offering up your knowledge and expertise for free.

    I read the entire thing, and plan on reading through it again so I can hammer that advice of yours into my head.

    I used some of your tactics and tips (such as betting only half the pot with TPTK) and I've had great results (more calls).

    You deserve a standing ovation AND a pat on the back for your work.

    Thank you.
    Thanks. BTW The information on the site is about 40% of the information you receive compared to doing the challenge. So, you should get onboard.
  55. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLAOK
    I'm not a fan of value betting on the river.
    WTFBBQ
  56. #56

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    Hi Aok, thanks so much for the chart and the site it has really helped me.
    I have a question about continuation bets according to Performance Poker.
    If for example I have AK, raise preflop 5xbig blind and get one caller and the flop comes J high. I bet 1/2 the pot and my opponent calls.
    The turn is a random card that didn't help me.
    Do I then bet 1/2 the pot again or do I check and fold when he bets?
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.

    The #1 rule of performance poker is to be smart enough to FOLD when you are LOSING THE HAND.
  57. #57

    Default thanks lvlaster

    Thanks for that.
    It was probably obvious, but I'm pretty new to money poker +-
    1 month.
  58. #58
    grnydrowave2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotmail
    This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

    THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

    YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

    Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed.

    [email protected]
    Hmm?
  59. #59
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    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.
    Only a sith deals in absolutes.
  60. #60

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.
    Problem with these absolutes is that to the more aware players, they are pretty obvious and will get exploited.

    I guess when you're new to all this, it's indeed better to just back off rather than give up half your stack trying to "stay strong" with air.. but occasionally firing that 2nd barrel is crucial (especially since some people like to call the flop to see if indeed you will forfeit the hand on the turn).. so plz don't talk in these absolutes.
  61. #61

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.
    but occasionally firing that 2nd barrel is crucial (especially since some people like to call the flop to see if indeed you will forfeit the hand on the turn)..
    I couldn't agree more on the 2nd barrel. I am surprised how many fold to that second barrel ... thinking ... whoa this guy must be serious about his hand. Now if that one is called, then ... time to reevaluate.
  62. #62
    Most hands at the micro level are revealed on the turn. Second barrels can be +EV if you have a plan.
  63. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by aokrongly
    Quote Originally Posted by Atlplayer85
    Aok, I greatly enjoyed your site and it's great that you're offering up your knowledge and expertise for free.

    I read the entire thing, and plan on reading through it again so I can hammer that advice of yours into my head.

    I used some of your tactics and tips (such as betting only half the pot with TPTK) and I've had great results (more calls).

    You deserve a standing ovation AND a pat on the back for your work.

    Thank you.
    Thanks. BTW The information on the site is about 40% of the information you receive compared to doing the challenge. So, you should get onboard.
    what do yo mean "get on board" ?
    If you mean sign up and register, I'm having a little trouble.
    I use the Firefox browser (as do alot of other people) and perhaps you could do some compatibility testing or customizing to make the site more user-friendly for people with alternative browsers (non-IE).

    I'm going to try a different browser and register here in a minute tho, we'll see what happens.

    Thanks again. =)
  64. #64

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingLizard
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.
    but occasionally firing that 2nd barrel is crucial (especially since some people like to call the flop to see if indeed you will forfeit the hand on the turn)..
    I couldn't agree more on the 2nd barrel. I am surprised how many fold to that second barrel ... thinking ... whoa this guy must be serious about his hand. Now if that one is called, then ... time to reevaluate.
    The whole point of performance poker is to play fish, that will call no matter how many streets you bet. You purposely play at tables with 45%+ players to the flop and a average pot size of 20xBB.

    The reason you give up after 1 c-bet, is because if they had nothing, they would have folded. If they called you once, they will call you again. They are bad players. We purposely picked out the table with the most fish possible. Thats why you NEED CARDS to win.
  65. #65
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    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster

    The whole point of performance poker is to play fish, that will call no matter how many streets you bet. You purposely play at tables with 45%+ players to the flop and a average pot size of 20xBB.

    Fish come in different breeds. Some fish call preflop with anything and are weak-tight after the flop. Some fish call everything no matter what. Some fish play so tight that you can steal their blinds with any two cards and it be +EV.

    Learn to play poker for chrissake. In poker there aren't specific rules for every action. If I have AK in position and someone raises infront of me, I may call, reraise, or even fold depending on the player. Theres no absolute rule about how to play any cards in any situation. This is what makes poker such a rich, exciting and profitable game. If there were clear-cut rules for everything, all games would be bad because everyone would play well.
  66. #66

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    The whole point of performance poker is to play fish, that will call no matter how many streets you bet.
    Then why on earth are you c-betting?
  67. #67

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    The whole point of performance poker is to play fish, that will call no matter how many streets you bet.
    Then why on earth are you c-betting?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    because if they had nothing, they would have folded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Some fish play so tight that you can steal their blinds with any two cards and it be +EV
    The definition of a fish is someone that is loose/passive

    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    In poker there aren't specific rules for every action.
    I agree.

    I also believe that it is this aspect of poker which someone playing 19 hand can profit the most from. Even though you know I'm tight, and most of the time you will fold to my bets with the second best hand, sometimes, for some unknown reason, you call with the second best hand. It's called Mike Caro's Law of Loose Wiring. And it governs the minds of those that are not disciplined enough to control it.
  68. #68
    Renton's Avatar
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    A fish is a poker player who makes more mistakes than me.

    The style of their play is largely irrelevant.
  69. #69

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    The definition of a fish is someone that is loose/passive
    funny
  70. #70

    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    Quote Originally Posted by KingLizard
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.
    but occasionally firing that 2nd barrel is crucial (especially since some people like to call the flop to see if indeed you will forfeit the hand on the turn)..
    I couldn't agree more on the 2nd barrel. I am surprised how many fold to that second barrel ... thinking ... whoa this guy must be serious about his hand. Now if that one is called, then ... time to reevaluate.
    The whole point of performance poker is to play fish, that will call no matter how many streets you bet. You purposely play at tables with 45%+ players to the flop and a average pot size of 20xBB.

    The reason you give up after 1 c-bet, is because if they had nothing, they would have folded. If they called you once, they will call you again. They are bad players. We purposely picked out the table with the most fish possible. Thats why you NEED CARDS to win.
    King is right about 19 hand, but let me clarify this.

    The point of Performance Poker is not to "play fish". The point of the 19 hand version of performance poker is to play it at tables with high preflop % and average pot sizes, because that's where it's most effective. There are also effective Performance Poker games against low preflop % and small average pot sizes. But 19 hand isn't it.

    Again, this has turned into an argument over minutia as if "Performance Poker" is some set in stone, inflexible, all or nothing, my way or the highway, don't have your own thoughs, system.

    I'll say it again... and again and again if necessary. Performance Poker IS NOT 19 hand. 19 hand is a TRAINING SYSTEM to teach the principles of Performance Poker. For some people 19 hand immediately improves their game becuase it is a big step forward in tightness and discipline. For others it could be considered a step backward because they already have a more advanced game than 19 hand. However, ... once more... 19 hand is Not Performance Poker.

    The reason that 19 hand is a "set in stone" system is because it creates and maintains a proper training environment to learn the lessons of Performance Poker. Those lessons are not to make any particular c-bet or not, to fire both barrels or not, to play any particular preflop cards or not. The TRUE lessons of Performance Poker are about he value of playing systematic poker.

    I'm going to tell you the final result of the Performance Poker model. I doubt it will help they nay-sayers, but you never know.

    Performance Poker is a system of rapid modeling, testing, proving and implementing the most effective poker strategies for the conditions in which you play for long-term, consistent success.

    The only way to learn that PROCESS is to start by experiencing a MODEL (via 19 hand). Once you learn the lessons that actually following a model has to teach THEN you can grasp the more complex and powerful concepts of creating, testing, proving and implementing models of your own.

    19 hand is a two edged sword. I absolutely Love the fact that it has helped so many people go from losing poker players to winning poker players. That's the value of the 19 hand model. But it also frustrates me to see advanced players arguing over the minutia. It's like listening to someone say that vaccinations carry side-effects and therefore we shouldn't do them - even though they save millions of lives. Yes 19 hand is a limiting game. But it's not the entirely of "medicine" in the Perforance Poker system. It's just a vaccination.

    And I dooooo appreciate the fact that people who disagree on certain points are doing so because they want to help people play better poker. In that regard we are in 100% agreement. The goal on FTR is to help people play better poker. We just disagree on tactics. I have alot of respect for the people who are disagreeing in the thread.
  71. #71
    I have been playing poker off and on for 8 months now. I developed my own game, by reading FTR, learning about the importance of position, aggression, and information. I never wrote anything down. I was just trial and error.. and error... and error.

    I would build up a chipstack and then piss it all away, not knowing of the most important aspect of poker - the Fold button.

    I registered for AOK's challenge 5 days ago. I have learned the importance of a structured game. I have learned the importance of focusing on the PROCESS and not the RESULT. I have discipline.

    I highly recommend Performance Poker challenge to anyone struggling with their game, in need of fixing leaks, or even if you haven't played a hand of poker in your life.
  72. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLAOK
    I'm not a fan of value betting on the river.
    WTFBBQ
  73. #73
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    Default Re: betting on the turn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
    I'm a padawan of AOK's and I can tell you with 100% certainty, if your continuation bet is called and you do not improve on the turn, YOU ARE DONE WITH THE HAND. Check/fold and save the chips for when you are ahead.
    Only a sith deals in absolutes.
    Renton, your a great player, And I respect your opinion.
    I want to know, how do you feel about this system? It sounds to me like a good place to get your game going if your like me, and suck.
    For more experienced people, it may not be the way to play.
    I understand poker is not all about absolutes, but this is a good start??
    3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
  74. #74
    Renton's Avatar
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    I am not a good player. I am a learning player. And one of the things I have learned is that there isn't a rule that governs anything in poker.

    Not all fish think alike, and if you want to take their money, sometimes you have to make different plays for different fish.

    That being said, I think a chart like AOK's is great for beginners. Here are the problems I have with it, all of which revolve around the fact that I think it's a bit too simple.

    1. Limping unsuited broadways sucks IMO. They generally don't play well multiway out of position. In fact, I think its impossible to profit from QJo/KJo/KQo out of position especially if you don't raise preflop.

    2. Suitedness matters. It just does. Sure it only adds 4% to the winning chances of a hand, but that 4% is the chance you might win a big pot with it. Hence a suited hand has much better implied odds and plays much better multiway than its unsuited cousin.

    3. This is my biggest problem with the program. It doesn't recommend varying your play due to position. Position is so incredibly important in deepstack NLHE, far more important than the strength of the cards. T8o is far stronger on the button than AT is under the gun.

    4. Here is my second biggest problem with the program. It seems to (other than calling raises with small PP's) ignore implied odds. Next to position, implied odds are the second most important factor in decision making in deepstack NLHE. It is almost always ok to call a pot-sized-bet on the flop with an open-ended str8 draw on a rainbow unpaired board if the money is fairly deep. You will usually get paid off if you hit on the turn. This is linked with the next problem I have.

    5. Stack sizes. The chart sorta gets into this, but it points out an absolute in terms of number of BB's to call a raise with a pocket pair. However, if you have doubled up to 200bb's on a table, limped with 55 and someone raises to 12bb who also had 200bb in their stack, its a mistake not to call, because your implied odds are there.

    6. You are only raising 4% of your hands (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ), people (even fish) are going to know you have a great hand every time you raise and are going to stay out of your way.



    There, phew.
  75. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    1. Limping unsuited broadways sucks IMO. They generally don't play well multiway out of position. In fact, I think its impossible to profit from QJo/KJo/KQo out of position especially if you don't raise preflop.

    2. Suitedness matters. It just does. Sure it only adds 4% to the winning chances of a hand, but that 4% is the chance you might win a big pot with it. Hence a suited hand has much better implied odds and plays much better multiway than its unsuited cousin.

    3. This is my biggest problem with the program. It doesn't recommend varying your play due to position. Position is so incredibly important in deepstack NLHE, far more important than the strength of the cards. T8o is far stronger on the button than AT is under the gun.

    4. Here is my second biggest problem with the program. It seems to (other than calling raises with small PP's) ignore implied odds. Next to position, implied odds are the second most important factor in decision making in deepstack NLHE. It is almost always ok to call a pot-sized-bet on the flop with an open-ended str8 draw on a rainbow unpaired board if the money is fairly deep. You will usually get paid off if you hit on the turn. This is linked with the next problem I have.

    5. Stack sizes. The chart sorta gets into this, but it points out an absolute in terms of number of BB's to call a raise with a pocket pair. However, if you have doubled up to 200bb's on a table, limped with 55 and someone raises to 12bb who also had 200bb in their stack, its a mistake not to call, because your implied odds are there.

    6. You are only raising 4% of your hands (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ), people (even fish) are going to know you have a great hand every time you raise and are going to stay out of your way.
    You know Renton, this post looks a bit ironic to me. Not too long ago I started expressing doubt to Aok's system, and pretty much everyone jumped to its defense, including you. (I think you said stuff like "he uses it at 200NL" and "tight is right") Then I attacked Aok outright because I thought I was taking crazy pills that everyone thought this was a great system for winning..

    But since then I kinda saw what this 19 hands system is all about.. it's not for me, but I acknowledged what it was for. To learn people who are new (or struggling) some of the basics.

    And now you're pointing out flaws.. yes, they are substantial, but to be honest - and I know because I've been teaching some beginner friends for a bit - these topics are totally over the head of people who haven't grasped the basic concepts Aok is teaching.

    No attack or anything, you know I always respect your posts man, just thought this was an ironic change of pace on these forums

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