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Re: betting on the turn?
Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
Originally Posted by KingLizard
Originally Posted by jackvance
Originally Posted by ThelVlaster
but occasionally firing that 2nd barrel is crucial (especially since some people like to call the flop to see if indeed you will forfeit the hand on the turn)..
I couldn't agree more on the 2nd barrel. I am surprised how many fold to that second barrel ... thinking ... whoa this guy must be serious about his hand. Now if that one is called, then ... time to reevaluate.
The whole point of performance poker is to play fish, that will call no matter how many streets you bet. You purposely play at tables with 45%+ players to the flop and a average pot size of 20xBB.
The reason you give up after 1 c-bet, is because if they had nothing, they would have folded. If they called you once, they will call you again. They are bad players. We purposely picked out the table with the most fish possible. Thats why you NEED CARDS to win.
King is right about 19 hand, but let me clarify this.
The point of Performance Poker is not to "play fish". The point of the 19 hand version of performance poker is to play it at tables with high preflop % and average pot sizes, because that's where it's most effective. There are also effective Performance Poker games against low preflop % and small average pot sizes. But 19 hand isn't it.
Again, this has turned into an argument over minutia as if "Performance Poker" is some set in stone, inflexible, all or nothing, my way or the highway, don't have your own thoughs, system.
I'll say it again... and again and again if necessary. Performance Poker IS NOT 19 hand. 19 hand is a TRAINING SYSTEM to teach the principles of Performance Poker. For some people 19 hand immediately improves their game becuase it is a big step forward in tightness and discipline. For others it could be considered a step backward because they already have a more advanced game than 19 hand. However, ... once more... 19 hand is Not Performance Poker.
The reason that 19 hand is a "set in stone" system is because it creates and maintains a proper training environment to learn the lessons of Performance Poker. Those lessons are not to make any particular c-bet or not, to fire both barrels or not, to play any particular preflop cards or not. The TRUE lessons of Performance Poker are about he value of playing systematic poker.
I'm going to tell you the final result of the Performance Poker model. I doubt it will help they nay-sayers, but you never know.
Performance Poker is a system of rapid modeling, testing, proving and implementing the most effective poker strategies for the conditions in which you play for long-term, consistent success.
The only way to learn that PROCESS is to start by experiencing a MODEL (via 19 hand). Once you learn the lessons that actually following a model has to teach THEN you can grasp the more complex and powerful concepts of creating, testing, proving and implementing models of your own.
19 hand is a two edged sword. I absolutely Love the fact that it has helped so many people go from losing poker players to winning poker players. That's the value of the 19 hand model. But it also frustrates me to see advanced players arguing over the minutia. It's like listening to someone say that vaccinations carry side-effects and therefore we shouldn't do them - even though they save millions of lives. Yes 19 hand is a limiting game. But it's not the entirely of "medicine" in the Perforance Poker system. It's just a vaccination.
And I dooooo appreciate the fact that people who disagree on certain points are doing so because they want to help people play better poker. In that regard we are in 100% agreement. The goal on FTR is to help people play better poker. We just disagree on tactics. I have alot of respect for the people who are disagreeing in the thread.
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