NL10: aggro-donks

Hi, guys,

I'll post some interesting spots with some big pots that I played at FTP. I can post results later. Sometimes it can be quite difficult to put donks in a range because they can make the most bizarre plays ever. However, you need fo pick the right spots, otherwise you wont make a profit over them.

Therefore, I'm posting some hands with a brief analysis and description of players and I wonder if you guys agree with the way the hands were played (and if you think I am ever good in making these plays against these opponents).

HAND 1:
This guy is running 48/21 over 30 hands. I did not have any history with him, but I can tell he is a donk by the way he is playing. He makes a very strange raise in the river, but I made a full house and I repop.

His raise is mostly pure bluffs, hands that he turned into a bluff after the 2 in the river, A2s and 44s (he would raised KK and TT). The interesting thing is that he calls my shove on the river. What do you think is his range here?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($14.62)
SB ($13)
Hero (BB) ($11.10)
UTG ($10)
MP ($15.11)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, 10
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.25) 2, J, 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP calls $0.20
Turn: ($0.65) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, MP calls $0.50
River: ($1.65) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.65, MP raises $4.35, Hero raises $8.65 (All-In), MP calls $5.95
Total pot: $22.25

HAND 2: This donk was 58/19 over 32 hands. He was probably trying to represent a 4 here, but I was not convinced after the 3rd 4 on the river. Possibilities of value range? Kx, 77, x-4. I felt that he was bluffing often in this board because it is a button opening and they never give you credit for that. If they are bluffing, it is better to just call, instead of raising.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
CO ($20.73)
Hero (Button) ($10.67)
SB ($10)
BB ($8.42)
UTG ($10)
MP ($5.36)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
3 folds, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, BB calls $0.30
Flop: ($0.85) 7, K, 4 (2 players)
BB bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85
Turn: ($2.55) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $2.55, Hero calls $2.55
River: ($7.65) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $4.62 (All-In), Hero calls $4.62
Total pot: $16.89


HAND 3:
In this handi bluff catched big. This is a 54/8 donk. He limps, I isolate, he calls. I flop top pair, no kicker. He min check raises me (people never give me credit). He could do this with draws, 2-pair, trips, and A7+ if he is an aggro donkey. However, his line does not make any sense. I dont think he has AQ because of pre flop action. A2 is possible, as 22. If he has a hand with intermediate strenght or a draw he is sslowing down in the turn because I'm representing strength. He will continue to bet his monsters and bluffs, which polarizes his range. I call and he pots the turn, which is a 3d.

I really felt he was bluffing here often enough to bluff catch the river. He has very few monsters in his range (A2, A4, 45 and 22) and many draws and air. He bombs the river, and I call with A7o. Do you think this is ever a profitable call against this donkey? What is his range in the river?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($10.15)
UTG ($11.11)
MP ($12.19)
CO ($2.89)
Hero (Button) ($10)
SB ($17.50)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, A
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, 2 folds, MP calls $0.40
Flop: ($1.15) Q, A, 2 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.70, MP raises $1.40, Hero calls $0.70
Turn: ($3.95) 3 (2 players)
MP bets $3.70, Hero calls $3.70
River: ($11.35) 6 (2 players)
MP bets $6.59 (All-In), Hero calls $4.40 (All-In)
Total pot: $20.15

First 2 hands are so so standard imo. Hand 3 looks like spewy calls at first glance, but if you're read is as solid as you seem to think, then I like it. But bluff catching isn't very profitable unless you're Daniel Negreanu.

Hand 1 - It's weird because why is he suddenly going crazy? Nothing makes sense to beat you so yeah, fine, but I think your river betsize is interesting. Every possible draw missed and you potted it? Think 25c or 30c on the flop gets just as many calls too.

Hand 2 - Nice, really well played calling down instead of trying to rush the money in.

Hand 3 - Someone who is 54/8 limp/calls a 5x iso out of position and c/minraises an A-hi flop? Pretty sure he's going to show up with a bunch of Ax hands here, and you only beat A4 and A5. And then there's 22, 44, etc. You didn't give a read beyond "donk" so I'm just gonna give up the turn. As played never fold river given the price.

1 and 2 are good. Some people play their sets pot/pot/pot but it's also the bluff line, so looks good.

Hand 3, the 54/8 rarely bluff raises. Then betting big turn and river is highly unusual, pretty sure he has a nut hand here.

Plus the super loose-passive guys don't raise draws, they just call down. IMO isolating with A7o is a little loose because of kicker issues, I usually go with A9+. But when you hit top pair against these guys, the thing to do is gently barrel like 2/3 pot, they're calling down with the most insane stuff, but definitely dump it when raised.

hand 1 - pre good, flop good, turn good, river good. He has all sorts of 2x, Jx, Tx, JT, QQ, and very occasional hands that beat you
hand 2 - raise flop, call turn, snap river as played cos zeebo.
hand 3 - spew. Check back flop. As played fold every time he gives you the chance.

Against a reg or a reasonably good player, I think checking the flop is good in the 3rd hand. However, I honeslty, think that this guy is bad enough to call me with a Q. The problem with betting is when he raises as a bluff and we fold the best hand.

Anyways, this donk of the third hand is pretty unusual. He is not as passive post flop as he may appear. In a previous orbit the same thing happened: be limps, I isolate, he calls. He donks the flop and I fold (because I missed).

In this hand, his value range is so tight (considering that he would not play A8-AT like this and that AJ+ are probably out of his range) that we do not need to account for that many bluff combos to make this play profitable (according to my read). A few missed FDs and suited hands and I have more equity. My hand was good in the end, actually and he was not even drawing to something (as I assumed at the time).

Originally Posted by daven

hand 2 - raise flop, call turn, snap river as played cos zeebo.
the chance.

If I raise the flop, he folds his bluffs and some hands that I beat. Could you elaborate on that?

Originally Posted by Raoni_Poker

If I raise the flop, he folds his bluffs and some hands that I beat. Could you elaborate on that?

ja, calling isn't terrible obviously. I don't think it's optimal. He has a weak made hand here about 100% of the time and so long as he has seen you raise once or twice preflop already he'll be calling your raise with 55 etc. And then it's two trivial tiny bets to get it in and he'll never be able to fold.

The interesting thing about these hands is their actual holdings in the end. We never assume that a donk is bluffing when we face heat, so we end up folding most of the time. However, they can run 3 street bluffs occasionally and they will make you fold the best hand most of the time. This is not a problem if you have an edge, but it can get very frustrating when you do not extract value from your monsters and end up folding your AK, overpairs and top pairs to these bizarre bluffs.

I'll post the results of each hand and put some comments.

HAND 1: This was by far the most bizarre, because he actually called my shove. He had Kc4d. He limps with this trash hand and decides to call the flop (with a backdoor straight draw and K high!). He flops a 4 on the turn and this is enough for him to vomit his stack to me on the river. This was actually not a bluff...he thought he was good. He believed I was bluffing the 2 on the river and decided to push me out of the pot. He believed so hard that I was bluffing him that he called with 4s. If I'm betting an overpair here for value, I can fold a lot of the times because his raise is strong (especially for a fish).

HAND 2: This was interesting. I opened from the button and BB calls. He fire 3 pot sized barrels. He was quite aggro, he bets more than 50% of pots in the flop, so...I called him down. The funny thing here is that he had 38o!. He was probably intending to make this 3 barrel bluff with anything as I was opening wide on the button. If I have jacks or queens here, he is making me fold a lot on the turn.

HAND 3: this was the most controverse hand. I called him down with A7 assuming that his value range is narrower than his bluff range. He had 7c6c! He did not have any draw whatsoever here and decided to run a 3 barrel bluff assuming (probably) that I was drawing (or weak). Most of us (including myself) would fold the flop here assuming that we're beat. However, his line of limp-calling reveals a lot about his range.

Mental note: fish can be unpredictable as hell.

hand 3, since he's the bluffy donk like you said, calling down with tp looks good, nh. nice bet-sizing on the flop to induce/keep him in with his mega range.

I totally agree that 10NL is Thunderdome. People are doing wacky stuff all the time. But I wouldn't totally discount the conventional wisdom about fish. All the villains in these hands have 'bad player' stats but only the last has truly loose-passive preflop stats, and I bet his AF was normally high. For the classic fish though, like 60/10/AF 1, the AF being 1 is important, they're not bluffing or raising light.

This is a great idea for a thread, Raoni. Maybe we could keep it going and post/discuss more examples of fish playing badly. What do you think?

regs and fish both do weird stuff.
We could simply celebrate everyone at the micros

nit-reg who puts me on a 1 combo AK range
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($25.61)
BB ($34.64)
UTG ($38.79)
Hero (UTG+1) ($55.16)
MP1 ($31.92)
MP2 ($24.65)
MP3 ($24.65)
CO ($25)
Button ($13.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, A
UTG bets $1, Hero raises to $4, 7 folds, UTG calls $3

Flop: ($8.35) 3, 7, 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $9, UTG calls $7

Turn: ($26.35) J (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Hero raises to $42.16 (All-In), UTG calls $20.79 (All-In)

River: ($77.93) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $77.93 | Rake: $3

Results:
UTG had 9, 9 (one pair, nines).
Hero had A, A (three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $74.93

3bt gives me c-raise action- fold equity in da house
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($17.08)
MP1 ($26.81)
Hero (MP2) ($28.13)
CO ($15.15)
Button ($30.84)
SB ($26.65)
BB ($16.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 10, 10
2 folds, Hero bets $0.85, CO calls $0.85, 2 folds, BB calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.65) 10, 5, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.80, 1 fold, BB calls $1.80

Turn: ($6.25) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls $4

River: ($14.25) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB raises to $10.05 (All-In), Hero calls $0.05

Total pot: $34.35 | Rake: $1.71

Results:
BB had 7, 8 (one pair, eights).
Hero had 10, 10 (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $32.64

some nit who had lost the plot and was tilt-shoving a lot
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($29.30)
SB ($25)
BB ($25.90)
UTG ($27.10)
UTG+1 ($45.16)
MP1 ($36.10)
MP2 ($16.84)
MP3 ($23.90)
Hero (CO) ($37.99)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, A
UTG bets $27.10 (All-In), 4 folds, Hero raises to $37.99 (All-In), 3 folds

Flop: ($54.55) J, 10, A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($54.55) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($54.55) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $54.55 | Rake: $2.72

Results:
UTG had Q, 8 (one pair, Queens).
Hero had K, A (straight, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $51.83

some nit who always beats 22 here
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($28.54)
MP2 ($48.40)
MP3 ($13.59)
CO ($54.12)
Hero (Button) ($25)
SB ($18.70)
BB ($14.27)
UTG ($23)
UTG+1 ($50.61)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, Q
5 folds, CO bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, SB calls $0.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.80) 2, J, 10 (3 players)
SB checks, CO bets $1.40, Hero raises to $3.40, 1 fold, CO calls $2

Turn: ($9.60) 9 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3.40, CO calls $3.40

River: ($16.40) 5 (2 players)
CO bets $46.47 (All-In), Hero calls $17.35 (All-In)

Total pot: $51.10 | Rake: $2.55

Results:
Hero had K, Q (straight, King high).
CO had J, J (three of a kind, Jacks).
Outcome: Hero won $48.55

daven's hands
Hand 1, the small overpair has been the death of many a stack. I always thought bet small and call was a draw, but I guess it means, 'my hand is weak but I'm still not folding.' The turn call is terribad.
Hand 2, shows how hard it is for players to release any kind of hand, also the huge difference between the fish's calling range and betting or raising ranges.
Hand 3, love the tilty open-shove, ty for the free EV.
Hand 4, he's never releasing top set there if ever but def passive play on villain's part. I hope he at least thought about it on the river. He's about to call off 3x what he's already put in the pot.

Here's one. Villain is 38/6/AF 4 over about 20 hands of Rush. When he checks the turn I doubt he has the Q, but now I have SDV so check it back. I was about to fold the river but looked at his stats first. Admittedly a small sample, but he was 100% w$wsf and 0% wtsd. Haha. Not a big hand, but again shows how alot of people just never want to give up a hand.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ($7.94)
SB ($20.27)
Hero (BB) ($18.37)
UTG ($5.97)
MP ($11.02)
CO ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, A
4 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.40, SB calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.80) Q, 9, 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.80) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.80) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $1.80, Hero calls $1.80

Total pot: $5.40 | Rake: $0.36

Results:
SB had 3, A (one pair, nines).
Hero had 5, A (two pair, nines and fives).
Outcome: Hero won $5.04

shame i got too drunk to continue this session
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($53.58)
BB ($17.50)
UTG ($24.50)
UTG+1 ($9.50)
MP1 ($23.75)
MP2 ($26.84)
CO ($20)
Hero (Button) ($39.51)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
3 folds, MP2 bets $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.70, 2 folds, MP2 calls $2.70

Flop: ($8) 9, 9, Q (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $4

Turn: ($16) 2 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $9, MP2 raises to $19.14 (All-In), Hero calls $10.14

River: ($54.28) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $54.28 | Rake: $2.71

Results:
Hero had A, A (two pair, Aces and nines).
MP2 had K, J (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero won $51.57

b/c, c/c, c/shove the gutshot on the paired fd board, gotta love it!

This one is interesting. I isolated a limper with a 4x raise. I usually made 4x opening raises + 1x per limper but I'm finding more profitable to raise 3x+1x per limper for three reasons:
1) They will call or 3 bet the same value range anyways
2) The will call sometimes with weaker hands that you dominate or are ahead of
3) Sometimes they will 3 bet you smaller giving you odds to call (like in this example).

The villain is a typical LAG. Sample is small (44 hands) but he was 44/30 and 24% 3bet (13 possibilities). I felt he was tilting, but this might be the way he plays. He 3bet to 1$, so...I need to call 0.6 to see a flop. With 55, a tilted LAG with almost 120BBs effective...I called to make a set and stack him off (11% of the time). I expected him to cbet his entire range and if I hit a set, I planned to minraise (they always think it is a bluff). I really hoped he had something stronger than he actually had (aces or a king, for instance). Here is the action:


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($7.75)
MP ($5.20)
CO ($10)
Hero (Button) ($11.91)
SB ($5.55)
BB ($13.94)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, BB raises $0.90, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.60
Flop: ($2.15) K, 4, 5 (2 players)
BB bets $2.15, Hero raises $4.30, BB raises $10.79 (All-In), Hero calls $6.61 (All-In)
Turn: ($23.97) 10 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($23.97) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $23.97
Results below:
Hero had 5, 5 (three of a kind, fives).
BB had 3, A (high card, Ace).
Outcome: Hero won $22.38