People reads

After my BR stagnated at $220-$230 for a few days, I took some time to look at my game and wondered why I kept having problems with so-called "downplayers" who always seemed to lure me into forking over too much cash, often offsetting the winnings I took from my good hands. So I decided to look at another aspect of the poker game, as I had now been mostly focussing on the technical aspect.. so now, the psychological aspect; Ie, people reads.

Even though it's only on the internet, there is actually a lot more you can say about what your opp is holding than I ever thought possible. I caught onto this when I was playing this guy and he somehow seemed to know what I had all the time. Blew like $50 trying to figure out how the hell he did that. I think it was well worth it though, because it opened a new view on poker for me. This guy called just about every raise with whatever crap hand he had (not just me, from everyone at the table) and STILL managed to run a profit. (again, not just off of me lol)

Now, it's very complex, and it don't even think I can put into words, not even in my own head.. but you kinda start to see patterns, in yourself, and in others. So when I started to understand it better, I got better at masking the cards I had, and seemed better able to extract money from my top hands. Likewise, by far my biggest money leak (getting suckered into all-in on second best hands) decreased A LOT in frequency.

But there are so many factors.. reaction time, different opponent playstyles, betting behavior, betting size, the texture of the flop (!), the contingency from flop=>turn=>river etc etc. Still takes a lot of concentration to keep focussed. But atleast my BR started moving up again after the stagnation. It's now sitting at a comfortable $307. I think I'm gonna need some more time to get the hang of this people reading thing, but I honestly think it's the step to a whole new level of poker after you get comfortable with the odds/math.

Originally Posted by jackvance

After my BR stagnated at $220-$230 for a few days, I took some time to look at my game and wondered why I kept having problems with so-called "downplayers" who always seemed to lure me into forking over too much cash, often offsetting the winnings I took from my good hands.

I don't understand you, I really don't. You understand the maths of poker better than most; you've picked up a great deal in a short time and are obviously on the way to becoming a good player. SO WHY CAN'T YOU ACCEPT THAT YOU WON'T WIN EVERY HAND AND EVEN THE BEST PLAYERS SOMETIMES HAVE DOWNSWINGS???[/b]

^^^^
I bet he knows. But all good players try to improve their game whenever they don't think it's perfect.

What on earth are you talking about? You on crack? Who is talking about winning every hand?
I'm talking about laying down hands where you are obviously beat. I used to get suckered into those too much, now it's way better.

Really, if I wanted the obvious newbie things repeated over and over, I'll ask for em ok? Or I'll just read the stickies, or Aok's posts.

God this forum turned annoying quickly.

You have been here less than a month give it time.

You clearly are not thinking long term.

Originally Posted by Muxy

You clearly are not thinking long term.

Seriously, it's probably just me but what does that have to do with my post? I'm talking about expanding my game with more accurate reads rather than just thinking of all possible cards he could have and percentages and such. Where is the long term problem in improving the leaks in your game?

You have been here less than a month give it time.

Yeah well, I think my stay here is gonna be over; I mean, I'm trying to talk applied poker strategy here but all people reply is "manage your BR!" and "think long term!".. eh hello?

Originally Posted by jackvance

What on earth are you talking about? You on crack? Who is talking about winning every hand?
I'm talking about laying down hands where you are obviously beat. I used to get suckered into those too much, now it's way better.

Really, if I wanted the obvious newbie things repeated over and over, I'll ask for em ok? Or I'll just read the stickies, or Aok's posts.

God this forum turned annoying quickly.

Chill out, seriously you have been playing poker for like a month and the way you come off in a lot of threads rubs people the wrong way. A lot of your posts seem like brags and a lot of your advice makes you sound like you think you are better than everyone else.

This thread didnt really ask a question, instead you just danced around while talking about your growing bankroll.

Im not sure exactly what you are asking here, if anything, but yea, you can get good reads from players by looking at their betting patterns, etc. These are things you pick up on with stats or observing a player for a long period of time, and then there are standard patterns that are more often than not a bluff or represent a specific hand. You pick up on these lines after awhile and player specific reads come from playing against the same player for a while. These are all things that come with experience.

Now if you have an actual question I will try to answer it a little better.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by Muxy

You clearly are not thinking long term.

Seriously, it's probably just me but what does that have to do with my post? I'm talking about expanding my game with more accurate reads rather than just thinking of all possible cards he could have and percentages and such. Where is the long term problem in improving the leaks in your game?

You have been here less than a month give it time.

Yeah well, I think my stay here is gonna be over; I mean, I'm trying to talk applied poker strategy here but all people reply is "manage your BR!" and "think long term!".. eh hello?

Again, chill out. Your post came off like you were bragging and you didnt even really ask a question. Put questions in your threads so that people have something to try to "answer" and to discuss.

Once you can recognise the lines that people take with certain hands you wont be thinking about all this.
Leanr how people play their hands typically then you wont need to think, just react.

The reads come with time and experience, jack, IF you're focussed on making them. Like you, I still make the odd donk play with second best (though not nearly as many as I used to), and it's usually because I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been. It's those DOH! moments that put the biggest dents in my bankroll. You can't expect to win them all, but eliminating the-beat-that-should-never-have-been is certainly achieveable, I think. That's why I'm still single tabling, so I can watch my opponents play and get better at making more nuanced reads.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

A lot of your posts seem like brags and a lot of your advice makes you sound like you think you are better than everyone else.

Ah ic. Well thx for the honesty Andy, and I mean it. I've been kinda "engrossed" in my pursuit of becoming good at poker, just always came here and blurted out my thoughts without really "tidying it up" to blend in with the crowd. I thought that was okay since I figured everyone here would be kinda like me, doing the math to understand the odds, researching their own leaks and finding out ways to improve their game etc. But whatever, doesn't matter, not too much to be gained here anymore anyway.

This thread didnt really ask a question, instead you just danced around while talking about your growing bankroll.

Hm, well, I wasn't really asking anything, kinda hoping to get some other views on how people do their reads online etc. And my BR.. eh I've been mentioning that since the very beginning, even when it plummeted down to $10. Everyone said I was stupid and was gonna blow it all, so yeah, I didn't. But like I said, doesn't matter anymore.

That's why I'm still single tabling, so I can watch my opponents play and get better at making more nuanced reads.

Yeah I did that at first too, but there often great similarities, ie returning patterns. All the smallstacks basically play the same, for one thing. And the not-too-good players will betray their hands by how long they "think" about their decisions. For example instant-check means they usually don't have anything (a bluff has more chance of success in this scenario).. if you see a guy think long and then check, it usually means he saw "something" on the flop. I've been able to pick out the guys that were downplaying their hands this way. Not always, sometimes it's a draw, and sometimes it's nothing, but it helps.
The weaker players will also give away the confidence in their hand with their bets. You often need to see a few showdowns to get a good read on a specific person, but it's surprisingly similar across the board.
So yeah, now I'm 2-tabling and I can pretty much keep up, it only gets confusing when two important hands are being played simultaneously.

Originally Posted by jackvance

...not too much to be gained here anymore anyway...

I think you're wrong about that. I don't think anyone can absorb everything there is to learn on here in a couple of months. And you're never finished learning this game anyway.

Also the instacheck/delayed check thing. Don't put too much into that. It can be an accurate read, but this is online poker: you never know how many tables they may be playing, whether their connection died, whether they're reading a post at the same time etc.

Originally Posted by Warpe

I think you're wrong about that. I don't think anyone can absorb everything there is to learn on here in a couple of months. And you're never finished learning this game anyway.

I agree but I feel it's all mostly from experience from here on out. I mean when you play, you play many many hands after each-other and it often comes down to those few crucial hands that you need to lay down or push for the win, so it's really important to develop those "habits" in your play that only come from experience.

And posting here only to find out I should *gasp* manage my BR and that "I can't win every hand" really doesn't do all that much for me.

Also the instacheck/delayed check thing.

Yeah I know that they could be multitabling or doing other things (as I do that too) but instachecks usually indicate their attention is on the board and they saw nothing interesting. Long thinking can give *some* indication vs the poorer players.. the better ones who probably multitable and have enough experience to make split-second decisions, against those it doesn't help you very much.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by Muxy

You clearly are not thinking long term.

Seriously, it's probably just me but what does that have to do with my post? I'm talking about expanding my game with more accurate reads rather than just thinking of all possible cards he could have and percentages and such. Where is the long term problem in improving the leaks in your game?

You have been here less than a month give it time.

Yeah well, I think my stay here is gonna be over; I mean, I'm trying to talk applied poker strategy here but all people reply is "manage your BR!" and "think long term!".. eh hello?

I think Muxy was making a double entendre, an analogy, and a clever one at that. He was using the poker terms to talk about your views on this forum, i.e. "thing long term" and perhaps others can be applied, "short term variance" and "fluctuations" and the like. I think he meant, don't let this thread, one thread, that isn't to your liking sway your opinion of FTR as a whole. You caught a bad beat on a thread (actually not that bad), so what, it's one thread. Clever, see?
I could be wrong, and if I am, i'll go stand in the corner now.

You mentioned betting behaviour and betting size. If you can find someone who isn't new to poker ie. who's played enough hands to make it almost monotonous, and you find these patterns, then this is a very good tell.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by andy-akb

A lot of your posts seem like brags and a lot of your advice makes you sound like you think you are better than everyone else.

Ah ic. Well thx for the honesty Andy, and I mean it. I've been kinda "engrossed" in my pursuit of becoming good at poker, just always came here and blurted out my thoughts without really "tidying it up" to blend in with the crowd. I thought that was okay since I figured everyone here would be kinda like me, doing the math to understand the odds, researching their own leaks and finding out ways to improve their game etc. But whatever, doesn't matter, not too much to be gained here anymore anyway.

Those arent the things that make you come off that way, its not your efforts to learn, your math, etc. It is the way you carry yourself and how you phrase things. Again, if you change your attitude there is plenty to learn here, go to 2+2 and see how they react to the big man on campus playing the $20NL ring tables.

Originally Posted by jackvance

This thread didnt really ask a question, instead you just danced around while talking about your growing bankroll.

Hm, well, I wasn't really asking anything, kinda hoping to get some other views on how people do their reads online etc.

Alright, fair enough, the first post was very ambiguous and I wasnt really sure what you were getting at. I answered your post as best I could and so did a few others.

Originally Posted by jackvance

And my BR.. eh I've been mentioning that since the very beginning, even when it plummeted down to $10. Everyone said I was stupid and was gonna blow it all, so yeah, I didn't. But like I said, doesn't matter anymore.

We said you would blow it all away if you kept disregarding BR management, and again you still can lose it, having a bankroll after a month means you had a good month, having it after a few hundred thousand hands mean you are a good player.

Originally Posted by jackvance

That's why I'm still single tabling, so I can watch my opponents play and get better at making more nuanced reads.

Yeah I did that at first too, but there often great similarities, ie returning patterns. All the smallstacks basically play the same, for one thing. And the not-too-good players will betray their hands by how long they "think" about their decisions. For example instant-check means they usually don't have anything (a bluff has more chance of success in this scenario).. if you see a guy think long and then check, it usually means he saw "something" on the flop. I've been able to pick out the guys that were downplaying their hands this way. Not always, sometimes it's a draw, and sometimes it's nothing, but it helps.

The weaker players will also give away the confidence in their hand with their bets. You often need to see a few showdowns to get a good read on a specific person, but it's surprisingly similar across the board.
So yeah, now I'm 2-tabling and I can pretty much keep up, it only gets confusing when two important hands are being played simultaneously.

These are exactly the things you pick up on the more you play and the more you post, I see no reason for you to stop posting, nobody has been unreasonable, nobody has been out of line in regards to your treatment.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

It is the way you carry yoursel'f and how you phrase things.

Yeah, I normally do that but I just haven't been in the mood for that lately.

Originally Posted by midas06

You mentioned betting behaviour and betting size. If you can find someone who isn't new to poker ie. who's played enough hands to make it almost monotonous, and you find these patterns, then this is a very good tell.

The funniest thing are these "minbets" on a big pot. Most of the time this means "I have a doubtful hand" or "I have a draw". Infrequently it can be a means a guy uses to try to get you to reraise him, but a few showdowns and you can generally say what a person does in certain situations. After that, I don't need to think very hard anymore about what they possibly could have.. they simply tell me. It's not always 100% accurate, but still pretty good.

Another common thing I'm seeing is that when a poorer player pushes heavily (for his standards), this often means he has either a draw or a not-so-sure hand. I guess they think "I hope they fold; And if they don't, maybe I'll win anyway." (and a third scenario is when they have a premium hand that they probably feel should pay them off, but the flop sucks.. like QQ on a A-high flop) When they have a solid hand, they tend to play it more carefully. Probably because they don't want to scare you off of it.

If a better player however pushes heavy, it means he has a top hand - because the poorer players have a tendency to be lured into accepting this.

to get respect, you have to give respect.

If I was to be told by a player with about 1/100th my bankroll that I am absolutely wrong, I don't think I would react very kindly either. Now you may not be intending to tell me i'm wrong, but if that's the impression I get from your writing then it is.

At this stage of your poker career you should be asking questions and absorbing as much information as you can. Expositions on poker strategy like the one you have made are appropriate and are treated with respect when they come from a player who has the experience and track record and knowledge that it generates debate. Many fnord posts for example don't ask a question but I generally like them.

But I'm agreed with you on one thing. This place isn't the place it used to be. (Still better climate than 2+2 though)

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

This place isn't the place it used to be.

It was ok for a while. I'll probably check in from time to time to read some hand histories or something.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by midas06

You mentioned betting behaviour and betting size. If you can find someone who isn't new to poker ie. who's played enough hands to make it almost monotonous, and you find these patterns, then this is a very good tell.

The funniest thing are these "minbets" on a big pot. Most of the time this means "I have a doubtful hand" or "I have a draw". Infrequently it can be a means a guy uses to try to get you to reraise him, but a few showdowns and you can generally say what a person does in certain situations. After that, I don't need to think very hard anymore about what they possibly could have.. they simply tell me. It's not always 100% accurate, but still pretty good.

Another common thing I'm seeing is that when a poorer player pushes heavily (for his standards), this often means he has either a draw or a not-so-sure hand. I guess they think "I hope they fold; And if they don't, maybe I'll win anyway." (and a third scenario is when they have a premium hand that they probably feel should pay them off, but the flop sucks.. like QQ on a A-high flop) When they have a solid hand, they tend to play it more carefully. Probably because they don't want to scare you off of it.

If a better player however pushes heavy, it means he has a top hand - because the poorer players have a tendency to be lured into accepting this.

The problem with labeling a min-bettor into one category is that noone plays the same. Do you see why?

gl with your game jack.

This is something I've had to work on too...

I'm getting a lot better at it but still have a ways to go :P

You give horrrible mathematically fucked up advice (The poist about pot odds). So go.

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

But I'm agreed with you on one thing. This place isn't the place it used to be. (Still better climate than 2+2 though)

Wassat then?

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

But I'm agreed with you on one thing. This place isn't the place it used to be. (Still better climate than 2+2 though)

come back to the SNG forum =)

Originally Posted by vqc

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

But I'm agreed with you on one thing. This place isn't the place it used to be. (Still better climate than 2+2 though)

come back to the SNG forum =)

I think I might :P

I just wonder why it is the beginners forum that is the most hostile. Besides, what am I doing here?

Originally Posted by jackvance

What on earth are you talking about? You on crack? Who is talking about winning every hand?
I'm talking about laying down hands where you are obviously beat. I used to get suckered into those too much, now it's way better.

Really, if I wanted the obvious newbie things repeated over and over, I'll ask for em ok? Or I'll just read the stickies, or Aok's posts.

God this forum turned annoying quickly.

Sometimes the obvious newbie things need to be repeated over and over again, so they stick.

After all - this is the BEGINNERS section.

As for this forum turning annoying - remember there are a lot of people who have invested quite a bit more of time into both this forum and poker in general than you have. Since it is often difficult to get the true feelings behind someone's words online, the very suggestion that someone may be discrediting someone else's time investment quickly brings the defensive swords out.

Jack - I think most people here are truly looking out for ya when they constantly reiterate that it appears that you are going down a track many of us have gone down before. Unfortunately, most people have to experience these things first hand rather than take others words for it.

You clearly have the brain and the drive to be a good poker player - now you just need the experience to see that what people are saying on here is true.

As I said and meant earlier in this thread - gl with your game.

I don't think there is an answer to your original sort-of-question. The reason "downplayers" (you mean passive players? Underbettors? I honestly haven't noticed that term before) take too much of your stack is because you haven't played enough poker to get a sense of who they are and how they play. By and large, if they're taking your stack, then they are better, more experienced players. That's what I'm saying you've got to face - there's no cure-all for this other than learning and practising.

The other reason people don't answer your questions is because half the time you seem to have the answers already, and if anyone challenges you you get holier than thou and refuse to listen.

One final thing:

And my BR.. eh I've been mentioning that since the very beginning, even when it plummeted down to $10. Everyone said I was stupid and was gonna blow it all, so yeah, I didn't.

You need to go back and learn not to be results-oriented. This is a level one, first-day-of-school leak, and you need to fix it in your attitude as well as in your apprach to poker.

I dont know why everyone was so quick to shit all over this post. Jackvance hasnt said anything wrong. Hes basically said "Reading players is goot". Yea maybe its a little obvious but its true.
Biondino, im pretty sure he didnt mention trying to win every hand at any point.

Jack, youve clearly put alot of effort into learning this game, and if you continue I think you will eventually be a pretty decent player. Having said that, if you think you have outgrown this site after just over a month of playing then you sir are a muppet.

As for your actual post. I rely alot on the basic poker tracker loose/tight aggressive/passive stats for judging ranges in general, but I also take lots of hand specific notes like "minbet flop with flush draw" or "minbet 2 flush flop with TP crap kicker". These notes really start to add up and build a picture of how people play once youve sat with them for a while, and it is these that I rely on when trying to put people on more specific hand ranges.
When you sit at a table try focussing on 2 or 3 people at a time rather than watching a whole table. everytime a hand goes to showdown make a note of what people had and what they did with it. Youll be surprised at how quickly you start to accuratly put people on types of hands.

Once you start to develop these reads trust them, but not to the death. If someone minbets a flop and you put them on a probable flush draw, then the bet bigger on the blank turn it could well mean your initial read was wrong. Dont just put someone on a flush draw and play the rest of the hand without evaluating your "read".

Thats my tuppence'th.

You misspelled "tuppence'th", Pelion

Originally Posted by sonOfAkira

I think Muxy was making a double entendre, an analogy, and a clever one at that.

Upon reinspection, it seems you might be right. My bad.

Originally Posted by azureXsmurF

This is something I've had to work on too...

I'm getting a lot better at it but still have a ways to go :P

Same here. It's just one of those things that takes time I guess.

You give horrrible mathematically fucked up advice (The poist about pot odds). So go.

Thx, and yeah I have no clue who you are either.

Jack - I think most people here are truly looking out for ya when they constantly reiterate that it appears that you are going down a track many of us have gone down before.

I guess it just struck me as a bit of a weird thing that simply because it seems to be going well now, I'm somehow predisposed to fail horribly later? I mean, I can take downswings.. I really hate to lose, so adversity is my best motivator.

Not getting carried away on optimism is one thing, but such pessimism is kinda.. meh..

As I said and meant earlier in this thread - gl with your game.

Thx man, you're a swell guy. (honestly)

if you think you have outgrown this site after just over a month of playing then you sir are a muppet.

Nono, not this site, many great players roam here. But the beginner’s forum has become a bit bland, not to mention hostile. I just don’t feel I’m getting much value here anymore, and I’ll give two more “gems of insight” to illustrate what I mean:

By and large, if they're taking your stack, then they are better, more experienced players.
>>This is a fantastic attitude - if you want to be mediocre all your life. Instead of asking yourself if maybe you could have done something better, you should just accept that you sucked and just keep on sucking!

That's what I'm saying you've got to face - there's no cure-all for this other than learning and practising.
>>Aside from the weird notion that I was somehow asking for a cure-all or something, I kinda wonder just what the hell I have been doing. I mean, I practice and learn, and then, well within the learning process, post a new realization here - a new aspect that I’m delving deeper into – and the reply is that I should just practice and learn? Circular? Redundant?

I hope you can see my conundrum here.

Oh, and a muppet??


EDIT: oh yeah, this is a flame towards Biondino but I just had to get that out of my system.. you're an ok guy man, and I know I have a tendency get carried away

Originally Posted by jackvance

But the beginner’s forum has become a bit bland, not to mention hostile. I just don’t feel I’m getting much value here anymore.

Well christ man, say that in the first place. I don't ever want this section to become hostile, so I don't like to hear that. But the rest is great news. That means we and you have been doing your job... You ain't a beginner anymore.

Try posting some hands or theories in the NL sections.

Originally Posted by chardrian

Well christ man, say that in the first place.

haha.. btw I just read your anniversary post, great stuff!

Try posting some hands or theories in the NL sections.

I'm sorry but humility is sinking in, I have no more motivation on any more theories atm