Poker Coaches

Do they have value? As a microstakes player is 3 hours of coaching really going to improve my game that much? I'm seriously considering signing on with Bill Seymour, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not it's worth the initial investment. Has anyone here worked with Bill? I'm just trying to find out if it's worth an entire 10NL bankroll for 3 hours of instruction. There's definitely room for improvement in my game, but blowing a full 10NL bankroll for an initial block of instruction seems a bit iffy. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Don't do it. Your better off doing other things you can do for free.

Buy some poker books, watch play on TV, and just keep logging time at the tables. When your watching on TV don't just watch the hands but watch how much their betting according to the blinds and whats in the pot.

Hell if you wanted to e-mail someone on the site a full hand history of your session I'm sure you would get some good tips.

Dont blow your roll.

If you want you can send me you hand histories at [email protected] I love breaking down hands.

Oh, I'm not a beginning player by any stretch of the imagination. I own a ton of poker books, 3-4 Sklansky books, SuperSystem 1+2, The Phil Hellmuth Toliet Paper Roll of Poker, HOH 1-3, and a few others. I've played litterally 10s of thousands of hands of most of the poker variants, maybe even 100,000+. I've religiously watched televised poker coverage for almost 10 years, so exposure to the game really isn't my problem.

My essential problems seem to stem from overvaluing weak made hands post flop (bad two pairs, overpairs, TPTK etc.), adjusting my openning and calling requirements against raises from different players, and varying my postflop play based on the style of my opponent. I really think that I'm at the tipping point of becoming an absolutely phenomenal player, and that the proper tutelage and strategic advice will put me over the edge. I probably didn't expound upon my situation as much as I should have in the OP. I'm just wondering if a poker coach (or more importantly the RIGHT poker coach) will give me access to that last edge I need to be a dominating player.

Hopefully that will give you a bit more insight into where I'm coming from, and also give future posters to this thread a bit more of a foundation to base their advice on.

So, again, this post is not so much a "I'm a beginner and have little conceptual knowledge of the game, can a coach get me to a 4ptBB/100 winrate in 3 hours." But, more of a "I have a solid enough foundation of the game to know I can be a winning player, can a 3 hour instruction session with a known world class mentor plug enough of my leaks to bring me to a 3-4ptBB/100 winrate."

Discuss.

If this instruction can get me from 10NL to 50NL in 2 months instead of 4-6, I have to believe that a full 10NL bankroll is a worthy investment, especially if I'm sitting on another $200-$300 to restake myself @ 10NL.

If you're not beating 10NL for at least 4ptbb/100 (and honestly, significantly more than that) then, I'm sorry, you're not "at the tipping point of becoming an absolutely phenomenal player".

There are plenty of people here (myself included) that grinded their way up from 10nl or 25nl to 200nl and above. Very few, if any, of us paid for coaching. If you've read those books and read a lot here on FTR, my advice is to just play, play and play some more. Analyze your big hands from every session in PokerTracker. When you find tough situations, post hands here for discussion. Then play some more.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=4946669


this is all the coaching you need until $25NL. Then spend your money on cardrunners.

Zook: I have limited to no experience in NL cash games, I've probably played < 15,000 hands of full ring NL cash games. There are certain adjustments between tournaments and cash games that I haven't made yet. If the $300 I spend on coaching is instead spent spewing out to 10NL tables while trying to refine my strategy am I not getting more value out of the money by using it for instruction, rather than trial and error? I mean are you suggesting I take $500 or $600 and play 25NL. It seems to me that $300 on coaching and $200 to restake for 10NL would be a lot more beneficial to my game than just trying to "tough it out" and refine my strategy by the seat of my pants.

I'm not one of these hard-headed stubborn men that refuse to stop and ask for directions when they're lost.

I hope I'm not sounding too defensive here, but I would actually like to see people in this thread debating the Pro's and Con's of hiring a coach , rather than saying "So, and so moved up 5 levels without one" "I moved up 3 levels with out one" etc. etc.

Those aren't tangible responses, and when it comes to gambling I'd rather not "Fake it until I Make it". I'm just trying to accelerate the process of plugging my leaks, and a 3 hour boot camp with someone who's been doing this for 40+ years, and has mentoring ties to a half dozen or more of the top100 players in the world seems like it would accomplish that goal more efficiently than being close to one side or the other of breaking even @ 10NL over 20,000-30,000 hands.

Your attitude wont get much respect around here




-- or that awesome grammar. I think the first thing you need to admit is that you arent good. you aren't on the verge of accomplishing anything yet. Making it sound like you know what your talking about won't fool anyone when you arent beating 10NL. No disrepctet, but you will get a much warmer reception from the people who matter and will help you around here if you take the attitude that you want to learn, not search for advice.. there is a big difference.

Just out of curiosity, have any of you actually pursued or actually contracted the services of a Poker Coach, and if not how can you be so sure that it won't improve my game substantially. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, I value your opinions and am not trying to trivialize them in any way.

The reason nobody is debating the pro's and con's is because there are no pro's for a10NL player to have a coach. Beating $10NL, $25NL and $50NL is a matter of reading this site, playing the hands and asking questions. You asked for the advice and so far nobody says get a coach. Save it, there are better players here and on other forums that can help you for more than 3 hours. I'll make you a deal, You start a thread asking for links to all the reading and postings you need to beat $10NL and spend three hours reading the links that FTR posts. I guarantee you will smoke those limits. If not, I'd quit because poker is not for you. If it's a fast track your looking for, forget it, nothing but repetition of hands and situations will ingrain the teaching you are looking for. Start in the beginner forum stickys and read every sticky in the shorthanded NL section, the HH section and the NL strategy section, then go over to 2+2 and read these
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0#Post3239210

If you still have time, let us know. Oh by the way, do you really think every poker situation is going to come up in that 3 hour session? It's conceivable that you may not even get thru post flop strategy's and he'll want another $10NL BR payment.

Originally Posted by overflow

Just out of curiosity, have any of you actually pursued or actually contracted the services of a Poker Coach, and if not how can you be so sure that it won't improve my game substantially. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, I value your opinions and am not trying to trivialize them in any way.

The problem isn't the coaching service that we are debating, it's what you need to learn at $10NL that's the problem, yor wasting your money and time. It's not that difficult to beat it. Lots of players have used coaches, but to learn a basic poker game (that you need) to beat $10NL is what we are denying you need.

"Making it sound like I know what I'm talking about"

You know, it would seem to me that either I don't know what I'm talking about, or I do. How can one "sound" like they know what they're talking about? Treating me like a child because "I can't beat 10NL" won't win you very many points either, Jishu. I'm not being antognistic, and I didn't just start playing poker 2 weeks ago. I'm new to cash games and have VERY SPECIFIC LEAKS that are causing me to not be a winning player. Go check my stats, they're over in NL Hand Histories. Yeah, they suck. I'm still trying to adjust to the cash game structure. Assuming I know nothing about poker because I haven't put up a solid winrate playing 10NL for 6,000 hands is childish, immature, and elitist.

I'm not looking for an argument here, I'm not looking for appeasement of my position in the discussion. I'm just looking for some honest feedback as to the pros and cons of improvement through coaching and improvement through play, and so far nobody has even come close to doing that.

I appreciate the tips, and the advice that learning how to read PT will be more beneficial to me at this level than coaching will. I know what PT is, I know what VPIP/PFR/TAF/W$SD are. I know when Poker Tracker is telling me that I'm defending my blinds too much, or limping/raising from early position too much. I'm not an idiot, or incompetent. Nor am I insinuating that I want people to tell me how to play poker.

And I understand, there are a lot of imflammatory douches on the internet who solely troll forums to antagonize people, I am not one of them. Can we not agree that 3-4 major leaks are the difference between being a losing player and a +5ptBB/100 winning player at any given stake level? I'm sure the regulars on here would agree with that statement.

What I don't appreciate is elitist antagonists trying to belittle me because I haven't turned a profit in 6000 hands of 10NL. Read some of my other posts, I think you'll realize I know a lot more about poker than you think I do. Even if I don't know as much as I think I do.

BTW, which grammatical error were you talking about?

I've never paid for coaching, but I've gotten a lot of free coaching by reading and posting here on FTR and doing session reviews with other posters. If you want more relevant advice, why not ask some of Bill Seymour's former students?

IMO, once you have a fundamental knowledge base (attainable by reading the stickies in our Beginner's Forum and the 2p2 link TJ posted) and a simple pre-flop game (significantly tighter than the 28/11 I saw you post in another thread) how quickly you move up depends on how many hands you can put in, how disciplined you are and luck. I doubt coaching could do more for you until you hit much higher limits.

If you have $600 to "invest" in online poker, and have played and read as much as you say, I would start at 25nl, not 10. If you lose five buyins, move back down to 10nl. Just my $0.02.

Originally Posted by overflow

I'm just looking for some honest feedback as to the pros and cons of improvement through coaching and improvement through play, and so far nobody has even come close to doing that.

Yea??? thanks very much. I'm done helping then.

Originally Posted by overflow

And I understand, there are a lot of imflammatory douches on the internet who solely troll forums to antagonize people, I am not one of them. Can we not agree that 3-4 major leaks are the difference between being a losing player and a +5ptBB/100 winning player at any given stake level? I'm sure the regulars on here would agree with that statement.

It is the regulars your talking to. what do you want to hear?? Go spend your fuckin money I'm done helping

Overflow, enough people like me here. I really don't care if you like me or not.



The gist of my post was the fact that you aren't in the right mindset. You believe that you know more than you actually do. I think this is your problem. You think you know - problem is you don't, and if you believed that you didn't know you would be alot more hungry to read FTR, hh's, get more hands in - instead of spending a roll on a coach who won't tell you anything to get you anywhere at 10NL.

You are playing children at that level.

Like I said, I have specific goals that I want to get out of the session:

Better hand reading, better range identification on various opponents, more insight on positional play, etc.

There is a wealth of information on here, and I value it. But let's say I wait 4-5 months and move up to 50NL gradually and decide to pursue coaching at that point. How much more good is that really going to do me then than it does now? If it's going to solidify my game and make moving up easier for me, and possibly give me a more stable foundation for play when I do move up, isn't that going to do me a lot towards making my wins a more linear progression? I'm an experienced player with a decent knowledge-base, but a lack of experience in cash games. I've won several tournaments, and placed extremely high in 1500+ entrants events. I understand conceptual poker theory. I understand pot odds and implied odds. I'm starting to respect position a lot more whenever I play. I just think you guys are selling me short because I haven't been able to beat 10NL yet.

Also, please don't make the mistake of thinking I have no desire to learn. I'm expecting someone to hand a winning poker strategy over to me on a silver platter. Poker doesn't work like that, and I know this. Please don't mistake my thoughts of pursuing coaching as a lack of desire to learn how to play the game more efficiently. I spend hours upon hours upon hours of my time reading strategy materials. I've read almost every strategy post on FTR, and some of them I've re-read half a dozen times. I'm motivated to improve autonomously, I just wish more people would address my actual question of "What advantages and disadvantes are there to getting play instruction from a world class mentor, as opposed to learning by reading and playing."

From all the advice I'm getting here, it seems like the general belief is that there is enough educational material out there to make this an unwise decision at this point. I understand that. I just wish you guys would be more receptive to debate here as opposed to taking the general position of "You're a donkey, learn how to play." Because you assume, based on limited evidence, that I know nothing about poker.

Originally Posted by overflow

Do they have value? As a microstakes player is 3 hours of coaching really going to improve my game that much? I'm seriously considering signing on with Bill Seymour, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not it's worth the initial investment. Has anyone here worked with Bill? I'm just trying to find out if it's worth an entire 10NL bankroll for 3 hours of instruction. There's definitely room for improvement in my game, but blowing a full 10NL bankroll for an initial block of instruction seems a bit iffy. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Ok you PM'd me and I figure I owe you this. Reread this post. This is what you posted and asked advise on. Where does all the information that we omitted and think you know nothing about poker written in these words. Here's what I read

Should I get a coach?
I'm skeptical it'll help?
has anyone worked with bill?
trying to find out if its worth a 10NL bankroll for 3 hours teaching?

And when we tried to tell you, your wasting your time for $10NL which you cant beat and gave you tips and what you needed to do you bit off our heads. Yes, you did. Go read it all again.

Why don't you start again. How much is the roll? How much tournament poker have you played? What stakes? Wins? Cashes?

Personally, looking at the 10K hands you posted, I don't htink you read FTR enough. Have you read the 18 Hands strategy. Running 20+VP$P -10PFR at $25NL or under is just spew if you haven't played ring. Tighten up, get more aggro, and learn about hand ranges. not rocket science. You know how to use Pokerstove, so hand ranges are pretty easy to figure out.

I didn't bite anyone's head off, I was just trying to clarify. It seems like the one sentence in this whole thread that caused everyone to get all pissy and condescending to me was the "I'm on the verge of being a phenomenal player". I can understand why that would rub people the wrong way. If any of the content of my other posts got a bit edgy, it was the sole result of my annoyance at the fact that Jishu was trying to say I was coping an attitude. Because I'm not like that, at all, whatsoever. That's actually the absolute antithesis of my personality. I was just trying to give you guys a bit more background on me, so that you could differentiate me from the random college kid who thought "poker is neat, maybe I can quit work study now". I'm not bragging, or tooting my own horn.

There are also other factors, like the fact that in major metropolitan business markets I can command high 5's to low 6 figures as a Netowrk Security Professional. It's entirely possible that if I get the right job in the next 2-3 months (or sooner) I could very realistically be rolled for $100NL or $200NL within a matter of weeks. This is also factoring into my decision.

Maybe starting at 10 or 25NL and grinding up is the way to go. I've yet to be a successful cash game player, so I don't know. I'm very self-reflective, and very honest with myself and others. I'm a weak cash game player, but not a weak poker player and I just wanted to make sure that differentiation was clear.

Overflow, I think you have received some good advice here (the constructive responses) I just thought I'd emphasise those. I think you may have caught a little flack because you didn't immediately mention you were transitioning from tourney to cash play. Cause if you did read all those books and plays thousands upon thousands of hands all at cash, and are still at $10NL you do seriously have some self-analysis of your game to do. Anyway....

1. Post hands here and read through other's HHs. Even respond with your insights to other members hand histories. It makes you think about the situations without knowing the results and gives you practice.
2. There are plenty members here with great knowledge/exprience who can give you advice for free and that is more appropriate for the low/microstakes limits you will be on as you progress upwards.
3. I don't think a high profile coach would be worth your money at these limits:
a) In three hours you probably won't see enough situations to learn from compared to what posting lots of hands would do from a span of sessions
b) Players at these limits aren't that good. They aren't flooded with thinking players. Have a tighter starting hand selection and value bet good hands, don't bluff so much.

Anyway, I think you should save your coach money for when you get to the higher limits. The game keeps changing as you move up...so wait til you get to those higher limits and the higher percentage of players are good thinking players and you'll need to have great reads to fight off aggressiveness and bluffs, etc. from these players.

I have played in about a half dozen live events, buyins ranging from a $20R&A to a few $60+15 Freezeout MTTs etc. I used to play a lot of $2 and $5 SNGs online, with moderate success. Live tournaments, I bubbled a 60 player $40+10 in 7th, in my first ever live tournament, I finished 2/45 in the $20R&A rebuy for $300, won a ~100 seat $60+15 MTT for $1400, I ended up chopping in the same tournament a few weeks later with 8 to go and the chip lead for $725 (it was almost 1am and I didn't feel like sitting around for another hour or two to bust the table, it was me and one other guy with a big stack I had about $135k, he had about $110k no one else at the table was over $35k the other big stack was a complete nit too, but he had position on me 1 to the left so chopping seemed even better). I entered a $100+juice 20 player 2 table tournament at the Hilton in Vegas and took the worst bad beat I've ever had the 3rd hand of the tournament I had 87o in the BB and it folded around to the small blind who called, I flop the nuts 69T, he leads, I raise, he reraises, I push and he called with QT caught runner runner T9 for a boat. In the last 3 weeks I've won 2 out of 6 of the 54player SNG satellites to the 2500 FPP Sunday $400k Satellite and to the 2500 FPP 100Main Event Seat giveaway satellite I entered. I actually finished ITM in the $400k satellite (72/2400 was the cut). So all in all I've faired better than worse in almost all of the MTTs I've played in.

Again, I'm not trying to brag, just trying to give you guys more perspective here. I'm not conceited in the least bit, and I really don't think I know it all. Please read my posts with that in mind

Originally Posted by holdin2

Overflow, I think you have received some good advice here (the constructive responses) I just thought I'd emphasise those. I think you may have caught a little flack because you didn't immediately mention you were transitioning from tourney to cash play. Cause if you did read all those books and plays thousands upon thousands of hands all at cash, and are still at $10NL you do seriously have some self-analysis of your game to do. Anyway....

1. Post hands here and read through other's HHs. Even respond with your insights to other members hand histories. It makes you think about the situations without knowing the results and gives you practice.
2. There are plenty members here with great knowledge/exprience who can give you advice for free and that is more appropriate for the low/microstakes limits you will be on as you progress upwards.
3. I don't think a high profile coach would be worth your money at these limits:
a) In three hours you probably won't see enough situations to learn from compared to what posting lots of hands would do from a span of sessions
b) Players at these limits aren't that good. They aren't flooded with thinking players. Have a tighter starting hand selection and value bet good hands, don't bluff so much.

Anyway, I think you should save your coach money for when you get to the higher limits. The game keeps changing as you move up...so wait til you get to those higher limits and the higher percentage of players are good thinking players and you'll need to have great reads to fight off aggressiveness and bluffs, etc. from these players.

GREAT post holdin, this is essentially exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. At this point I'm really just testing the waters in cash games so that when I do get a nice corp. job again and can roll for $200NL I'll feel a bit more comfortable an confident.

So the general consesus is that I won't get a full BR worth of advice out of the session and should wait until I'm already playing 50NL+ before thinking about getting instruction.

The only reason that I'm even considering it, is that in talking with Bill on the phone today either one of two things was happening. Either he was pacing me like a car salesman (If you're unfamiliar pacing is the concept of miming or mimicing someone's vocabulary/conceptual thought process/mannerisms in order to make the other person feel more comfortable around them, I used to do this myself all the time when meeting new people, you make friends so much faster that way it's crazy), or we actually think a lot alike, conceptually and philosophically and would make for a very good mentor/student team.

I definitely wouldn't be so adamant about thinking this was a good idea if we hadn't cliqued so well in the introductory phone screen. He also claims to get 18 request for mentoring a day and to being very selective about the students he takes on. Again, this could be pacing, I don't really know. Afterall, he is trying to sell me something, and he does lie for a living (he's a poker player!! Just a joke Bill). There were parts of what he was saying that seemed very genuine, and there were parts that seemed very sales pitchy "You know Jon Little just cashed for $1.5m on the WPT right?"

It seems like we have the dynamic for a great working relationship and I really think he has a lot to offer me. These are the only reasons I'm even considering this.

You need to ask yourself, "why does a great poker player only charge $100 an hour?"There are guys at this site making 10x more than that playing poker.

Yeah he's pacing you. Don't get to friendly with someone who's trying to sell you something, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear. And getting a tutor to beat 10NL is absurd. I'd suggest the following for you:

1. go to the section on this site where you can find hand histories (HH), read the first post, think about it yourself, draw your own conclusions and then read the comments.
(if you need more HHs, go to 2+2 and do the same in their microstakes section) That's all you'll really need.

2. Switch to 6max if you can, you'll learn to play real poker there. Full ring is mostly being a nit and nutcamping, in 6max the blinds circulate faster so there is more pressure on the players to act, meaning you'll be forced to develop your postflop skills. (there's also a forum dedicated entirely to 6max which is imo the best forum) Maybe wait til you can beat 10NL full ring though, being a nit is the first thing you have to learn, and then you open up further.

3. Become familiar with pot odds calculations. This is often discussed in hands where it is applicable so if you follow what I said above you'll run into this, but try to make the calculations yourself so that after a while it'll happen automatically when you are playing.

4. Get pokerstove (or any other poker simulator) and input hands you were unsure of to see what your actual win% was.. do this often and you'll get a great feel for the matter.

if you really want to spend money on "coaching", why not just get a subscription to CardRunners?

all the coaches you need are here!

I joined here playing 25nl in October and sucked, now I am breaking a tiny profit at 100NL through posting hands here and listening to the IMMENSE knowledge that's given away for free here by winning players!

Many of the players in this thread like Bode, Trainer, zook, Jack, etc. can help you significantly. You posted a thread with your PT stats and its obvious you have many common leaks/problems that are easily solvable.

I'd have thought you'd get much more value from $25 pm to card runners (from memory) on top of all the free advice on here. How much info can even the greatest coach in the world impart in a couple of hours? Compare that to videos and articles you can save and revisit again and again.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

You need to ask yourself, "why does a great poker player only charge $100 an hour?"There are guys at this site making 10x more than that playing poker.

nope

it tapers BIGTIME after about 100-200 an hour.

Originally Posted by jackvance

2. Switch to 6max if you can, you'll learn to play real poker there. Full ring is mostly being a nit and nutcamping, in 6max the blinds circulate faster so there is more pressure on the players to act, meaning you'll be forced to develop your postflop skills. (there's also a forum dedicated entirely to 6max which is imo the best forum) Maybe wait til you can beat 10NL full ring though, being a nit is the first thing you have to learn, and then you open up further.

3. Become familiar with pot odds calculations. This is often discussed in hands where it is applicable so if you follow what I said above you'll run into this, but try to make the calculations yourself so that after a while it'll happen automatically when you are playing.

I actually tend to run a lot better at 6max (in the past) than I ever have in full ring. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I generally have a much greater level of raw intelligence than most people at lower stakes (again, not bragging in talking to a lot of the people I've played with I realize I'm not wrong with that assessment) and can adjust better to the short handed game. 6max or less, and heads up I play TAG and generally try to outplay my opponents. It's definitely a lot easier to get the fish to call down with middle pair 6max that's for sure. It's also a whole lot easier to isolate, as if you have 2 fish and 3 13/7 nits you're going to destroy the game by isolating the loose callers heads up.

Maybe I will go back to playing 6max.

The main points are these.

1) 10NL is about getting experience and learning to identify common situations. It is not about learning fancy tricks/plays that only the pros can teach you. (also we have pros anyway).

1) A tutor isnt going to be very efficient at that, especially in 3 hours.

2) The combined knowledge of this site will be able to give you a much better idea of what you're doing right/wrong than 3 hours of being coached.

3) This site is free.

Spend your money on a coach if you want. It will probably make you a slightly better player. You've heard what people think on this site and hopefully you understand why the idea sucks.

Also a 4bb/100 winner at 10NL is not on the verge of becoming a phenomenal player. I lol'd at that .

Originally Posted by Pelion

The main points are these.
Also a 4bb/100 winner at 10NL is not on the verge of becoming a phenomenal player. I lol'd at that .

4ptBB/100

Like I said, I'm converting from tournament play, I have very specific leaks very specific to the cash game structure. But you're right, the use of the adjective "phenomenal" was a bit overzealous.

My answer, which hasn't been quite stated yet, is this.

Bankroll management teaches us to be in credibly protective of our roll, and never expose it to big risks. So you very much owe it to yourself and your poker career to do your best to maintain your roll - if a potentially useful product (i.e. you getting good at poker) is available for free elsewhere, it's a no brainer.

Secondly, this is why getting coaching now is a bad idea. It is vastly easier to make considerable progress at micro levels than at $100nl+. Right now, you can improve in leaps and bounds incredibly simply: tighten up, read strategy posts and stickys on FTR, analyse your play in PT, find instant messenger buddies and pick their brains, and play lots of hands with discipline. At 200NL, all these things remain valid, but improvements will be far smaller and harder to achieve, and maybe, just maybe, paying someone a fraction of your roll might prove a worthwhile investment.

Originally Posted by overflow

But you're right, the use of the adjective "phenomenal" was a bit overzealous.

And the use of the adverb "absolutely" before the adjective "phenomenal" was definitely a little presumptuous

Hrm, kinda seems like you already know what you need to do. You know how to interpret PT and that you have leaks...I honestly doubt a couch is going to speed anything up for you. You'll learn more by experiencing $100 worth of hands at $10NL than you will from an hour with some guy.

I'd say the pros were...well he's a professional...he knows what he's talking about...cons? Can't imagine he's gonna teach you anymore than you'd learn from reading reading reading. Posting hand histories and interpreting your replies helps a LOT.

Yeah - the coach wouldn't be doing his job if he tried to teach a 10nl grinder fancy tricks and nth-level thinking. Discipline, position, aggression and discipline, that's what you need.

I don't think Bill Seymour knows a lot about NL cashgames and I very much doubt he can teach anyone to beat them. Bill Seymour is a tourneyplayer.

i would say don't get a coach - I played about a year or so totally clueless until I came across FTR - all of a sudden I turned into a guy who can now beat 50NL consistently...If only my wife would let me play poker 10hrs a day who knows where i'd be

seriously though, FTR has all the info you need to move up to 50NL EASILY and even much farther than that - I think a coach would be a waste of money...use Pokertracker, post hands and think about the game - The games are tougher than they used to be, so try different sites - I find the $20 NL games on Sportsbook and BETUS to be EXTREMELY soft...last time i played Full Tilt even the 10NL'ers seemed to be getting better (even if it was just blind aggression) -


I am terrible at finding links on here but there was one going around just a month or so ago where there were various players sending each other hand histories and analysing each others play - That would be so much better than 3 hours coaching....but even w/out that, there is more than enough info on FTR to get you started in the right direction...

oh, and a lot of the new people tend to get jumped on here - you shoulda seen my first postings i think your handling it fine, just remember that everyone here is trying to help - thats what we're here for - but too many new people just want THE ANSWER in a black/white format, and it just doesn't work that way....

gl and kick some ass -

btw, i hope that your starting $75 wasn't your 10NL BR....? Cause the 20 buy ins was one of the best tips i first learned here - BR management is huge, especially for beginnners...one of my bigger problems as a fish was that i played scared and underfunded than i would blam the whole world everytime i went broke (which was most times -

"btw, i hope that your starting $75 wasn't your 10NL BR....?"

No, I worked $75 up to $125 playing full ring 0.25/0.50 limit. Worked $125 up to $176 playing 10NL FR and proceeded to donkify myself by tilting. AAvsKK AIPF a couple times (that cost me about two buyins, all-ins preflop I won 1/4 of the hands). Paying off donk2pairs (63,J4,K5) with good top pairs, lost a 2 buyin hand with AA against a flopped set by TT. Lost another buyin overshoving a raise on a T-high dry board in a raised pot preflop with 66 (same TT guy) villian instacalled with AA. Lost a couple other really big pots with AA to suckouts, had AA at both the tables I was 2tabling within 2 minutes of each other and lost stacks in both hands. They were heads up too. So a fair deal of bad variance, also a good amount of bad preflop play OOP. Being a little overeager from the button (I'm a 5.5 buy-in loser from the button over 6000 hands). Maybe I'm cbetting when it's checked around too much.

So I picked a few bad spots to get my money in, got unlucky a few times. Like I've said my game is 3-4 post flop leaks and 2 MAJOR preflop leaks away from being solid enough to move up quickly IMHO.

Why don't you tell us your 1-2 preflop leaks and your 3-4 postflop leaks. Maybe we can help.

The one thing I don't get is this; if you can identify your leaks it should be a piece of cake for you to correct them. Sure, looking for feedback is fine, but you seem reasonably intelligent, and any intelligent person competent enough to identify her own leaks are also competent enough to correct them. You seem to think highly of your own poker knowledges, but you can't work out a way to beat micro-stakes nl (yet)? There are no big secret strategy to be discovered. Actually, I don't think no single Bill Seymour-type in the world will be able to do you any good. You can, however, get better by analysing and correcting your leaks yourself. Others can help also, but there's no substitute for self-evaluation.

Overflow, keep in mind you are posting to a forum of folks who are wired to do deep analysis, research and self-directed learning. It's no surprise that you're getting questioned regarding your inclination to hire a coach. If you want to learn the game so that it sticks, you really need to start by doing your own analysis of your game, come to grips with your deep seeded weaknesses, make adjustments and repeat. The problem has already been presented: the time it takes for someone else to get in your head and fix your leaks isn't as (cost or results) effective compared to the work you can do on your own. The supplemental learnings gained through free posts at FTR can take you a long way.

Not to pile on, just want to provide some perspective...gl.

That was my point. If you can identify leaks like you say you have, then you can fix them overnight.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Why don't you tell us your 1-2 preflop leaks and your 3-4 postflop leaks. Maybe we can help.

Preflop:
UTG,UTG+1, and MP0 I'm doing dumb things like raising KQo, AJo, limping QJo, etc.
I defend my BB @ 60%
SB my VP$IP is a donklike 40%+
I categorize those three as one leak of playing too many marginal hands cheaply OOP. These ones I think are the easiest to plug.

My Button play is VP$IP 33.78% with 13% PFR e.g. I'm overextending my limp behind limpers range from the button, and probably cbetting too often when it's checked around

I probably 3bet JJ too much, although usually only from in position. Is calling reraises with JJ up front a losing play?

Postflop:
I can't get away from overpairs, and will generally overshove raises or 3bets on somewhat dry looking flops, only to have villian turn over set/2pair.

I'm paying off too many marginal one pair hands.

I'm probably misplaying my sets from a maximum value perspective.

I overplay my strong hands which I'm assuming at some point decreases the value I'm getting for them. I'm only running @ ~40-45% WD$SD, which means I'm either paying off too many river bets, or getting my money in too often on earlier streets without being as ahead as I think I am.

Other than that, I'm fairly good with pot odds and implied odds, I don't overpay for my draws. I do quite frequently raise my big draws on the flop (this is specifically is probably not a leak though, raising with strong draws and overcards on the flop is usually the right play).

That's pretty much it in a nutshell, PT stats for May/June in the HH thread is mine, if you see any other major weaknesses I'm all ears.

Originally Posted by overflow

Maybe it has to do with the fact that I generally have a much greater level of raw intelligence than most people at lower stakes (again, not bragging in talking to a lot of the people I've played with I realize I'm not wrong with that assessment)

lol ?

Sounds like the biggest thing holding you back is your ego.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Sounds like the biggest thing holding you back is your ego.

QFT.

Here's my advice from your Poker Tracker thread which maybe you missed. I think you should consider playing this way for awhile until you get into a groove. Play 6 max to work on flop skills.


- dont play w/ any ace except AQ or better unless on the button or AJs in the CO
-learn how to setmine. you should make a lottt more with setmining. Limp call baby, use 15x rule.
- Learn when it's best to check/call or just call river bets. This can be a massive leak
-play your suited connectors in position
- learn to be willing to dump marginal hands like kj, qj, k10 as one pair hands they stink, and I wouldn't be calling raises with them, but I would be willing to raise from the button or CO with them if folded to you.
-weak suited aces are a common way beginners throw away money, stop playing them.
- Big hand, big pot - sets, FHs, flushes, straights, sometimes overpair but be careful
- Medium hand, medium pot - overpair and 2p, occasionally TPTK
- Weak hand, small pot - top pair, middle pair vs. a villain you think has a busted draw.

I could tell a lot more if oyu posted your biggest winner and loser hands

Originally Posted by jackvance

Sounds like the biggest thing holding you back is your ego.

Other than my ego, the major thing holding me back right now is that I haven't redeposited yet to see if I've managed to refine my game. I'll definitely keep you guys posted.

Bankroll Question: Multitabling, should I have 15+ buyins for every table I intend to be playing simultaneously. With a good 15/10 or 20/15 line I figure to be playing few enough hands to get away with playing at least 2 tables, maybe 3, but definitely not 4 yet.

Thats far too tight imo. You lose alot of value by refusing to play stuff like AJ/AT in position against bad players.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Thats far too tight imo. You lose alot of value by refusing to play stuff like AJ/AT in position against bad players.

My 26/13 line hasn't been doing me much good though, I figured tightening up would be a move in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Thats far too tight imo. You lose alot of value by refusing to play stuff like AJ/AT in position against bad players.

I'm not saying permanently, I just think he should tighten up until he's winning again and then slowly loosen back up.

tighten up by all means but id still be playing AJ at least from mid position and AT from late.

If you check through PT youll probably find you are much too loose from early positions and you may even be slightly tight from late.

This thread is a fucking goldmine for struggling micro players.. I suggest it gets stickied or something, a lot of people could learn a lot from this.

@overflow, If I was you, I'd switch to 6max. It's much much more fun than FR, and it's what skyrocketed my bankroll.

Originally Posted by overflow

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Why don't you tell us your 1-2 preflop leaks and your 3-4 postflop leaks. Maybe we can help.

Preflop:
UTG,UTG+1, and MP0 I'm doing dumb things like raising KQo, AJo, limping QJo, etc.
I defend my BB @ 60%
SB my VP$IP is a donklike 40%+
I categorize those three as one leak of playing too many marginal hands cheaply OOP. These ones I think are the easiest to plug.

My Button play is VP$IP 33.78% with 13% PFR e.g. I'm overextending my limp behind limpers range from the button, and probably cbetting too often when it's checked around

I probably 3bet JJ too much, although usually only from in position. Is calling reraises with JJ up front a losing play?

Postflop:
I can't get away from overpairs, and will generally overshove raises or 3bets on somewhat dry looking flops, only to have villian turn over set/2pair.

I'm paying off too many marginal one pair hands.

I'm probably misplaying my sets from a maximum value perspective.

I overplay my strong hands which I'm assuming at some point decreases the value I'm getting for them. I'm only running @ ~40-45% WD$SD, which means I'm either paying off too many river bets, or getting my money in too often on earlier streets without being as ahead as I think I am.

Other than that, I'm fairly good with pot odds and implied odds, I don't overpay for my draws. I do quite frequently raise my big draws on the flop (this is specifically is probably not a leak though, raising with strong draws and overcards on the flop is usually the right play).

That's pretty much it in a nutshell, PT stats for May/June in the HH thread is mine, if you see any other major weaknesses I'm all ears.

posting a bunch of hands will quickly help plug these types of leaks easily.

Well, you wanted to know, so I'll chirp in although a bit late.

I did hire the services of a coach. A very good one too. He did improve my play and I think I got my money's worth. I however, play 400PLO and PLO8 so all I needed to do to amortize my lesson fee was win or save half a buy-in. My results would suggest I've recuperated the lesson fee many times over. Also, there is a dearth of knowledge available online or on paper about the 4 card game. For example, I'd hesitantly suggest I'm close to, if not the best omaha player who currently posts in the FTR forum, and while I don't post of 2+2 I can see the flawed advice given. I own the two books worth the paper written on. So for me, coaching was one of the few ways left that I could further improve.

In a nutshell - a poker coach can possibly improve your game. However, for it to be a good investment, you need to

A) be very familiar with the game so you can ask the right questions and absorb the material offeered
B) actually be playing high enough stakes (at least 100NL or PL)
C) have the right coach.
D) have no cheaper alternatives to do the same thing.

BTW I did not have bill. Based on what you've written, I do not recommend a poker coach for you at this stage of your development. The money is better used building your roll and moving up.

I'm not a Hold 'Em only guy by any means. I'll play it all O8, 0H, 7stud, 7stud8, Razz, I really love all forms of poker. I'm a sucker for a good game of Badugi and Chinese Poker as well. I would say that my favorite format is probably HORSE, although I think a HORSE format with PLO8 and PLHE would be more interesting

I seem to have good ROI in SS HU SNGs in Omaha8 and NLHE. I won the $5+ 9 player HORSE SNG I entered a week or two ago. I'll post some hands over in EWWBHE if you guys want to see them.

We're getting off topic though this is the NLHE strategy forum!

You could probably improve by starting to specialise in one game until you beat it consistantly.

Originally Posted by Ash256

This thread is a fucking goldmine for struggling micro players.. I suggest it gets stickied or something, a lot of people could learn a lot from this.

@overflow, If I was you, I'd switch to 6max. It's much much more fun than FR, and it's what skyrocketed my bankroll.

I couldn't agree more! as a micro player I've learned a lot and have received good advice . thank you all!

Originally Posted by overflow

I have played in about a half dozen live events, buyins ranging from a $20R&A to a few $60+15 Freezeout MTTs etc. I used to play a lot of $2 and $5 SNGs online, with moderate success. Live tournaments, I bubbled a 60 player $40+10 in 7th, in my first ever live tournament, I finished 2/45 in the $20R&A rebuy for $300, won a ~100 seat $60+15 MTT for $1400, I ended up chopping in the same tournament a few weeks later with 8 to go and the chip lead for $725 (it was almost 1am and I didn't feel like sitting around for another hour or two to bust the table, it was me and one other guy with a big stack I had about $135k, he had about $110k no one else at the table was over $35k the other big stack was a complete nit too, but he had position on me 1 to the left so chopping seemed even better). I entered a $100+juice 20 player 2 table tournament at the Hilton in Vegas and took the worst bad beat I've ever had the 3rd hand of the tournament I had 87o in the BB and it folded around to the small blind who called, I flop the nuts 69T, he leads, I raise, he reraises, I push and he called with QT caught runner runner T9 for a boat. In the last 3 weeks I've won 2 out of 6 of the 54player SNG satellites to the 2500 FPP Sunday $400k Satellite and to the 2500 FPP 100Main Event Seat giveaway satellite I entered. I actually finished ITM in the $400k satellite (72/2400 was the cut). So all in all I've faired better than worse in almost all of the MTTs I've played in.

Again, I'm not trying to brag, just trying to give you guys more perspective here. I'm not conceited in the least bit, and I really don't think I know it all. Please read my posts with that in mind

This doesnt even sound like you have much tourney experience...

dsm: Would you like to quiz me on my situational tournament knowledge? I love a good challenge. I'd also be glad to play you heads up sometime. We need to name the stakes though, and have an independant unbiased party review how well I did.

I'm actually waiting for Gauntlet VI to startup, we'll see how much tournament experience I have

That was probably worded a bit more harshly than I had intended it to be. All I'm trying to say here, is please don't make the mistake of thinking I'm some dumb 20 year old college kid who saw 2006 main event replays last month and thought "this looks like fun!!!" Isn't it obvious from my posts in the other forums here that I, at the very least, have a moderately decent conceptual understanding of the game? Am I completely off base here? I realize I'm nowhere near being a pro, but I'm by no means a novice. I would say "adept amateur" is the closest thing to an accurate poker label I could give myself. There was a 2500 hand stretch in those 6000 hands where I was playing an Eagle-esque 18.5/14/2.5 game at +9ptBB/100. So I know I have the capability of playing winning poker when I'm playing my A game. Yes, I realize that a 2500 hand sample is relatively insignificant, but it is a large enough sample to show that I can play a solid TAG line over an extended session.

Again, just trying to give you guys some additional perspective here.

Originally Posted by dsmrolla06

Originally Posted by overflow

I have played in about a half dozen live events, buyins ranging from a $20R&A to a few $60+15 Freezeout MTTs etc. I used to play a lot of $2 and $5 SNGs online, with moderate success. Live tournaments, I bubbled a 60 player $40+10 in 7th, in my first ever live tournament, I finished 2/45 in the $20R&A rebuy for $300, won a ~100 seat $60+15 MTT for $1400, I ended up chopping in the same tournament a few weeks later with 8 to go and the chip lead for $725 (it was almost 1am and I didn't feel like sitting around for another hour or two to bust the table, it was me and one other guy with a big stack I had about $135k, he had about $110k no one else at the table was over $35k the other big stack was a complete nit too, but he had position on me 1 to the left so chopping seemed even better). I entered a $100+juice 20 player 2 table tournament at the Hilton in Vegas and took the worst bad beat I've ever had the 3rd hand of the tournament I had 87o in the BB and it folded around to the small blind who called, I flop the nuts 69T, he leads, I raise, he reraises, I push and he called with QT caught runner runner T9 for a boat. In the last 3 weeks I've won 2 out of 6 of the 54player SNG satellites to the 2500 FPP Sunday $400k Satellite and to the 2500 FPP 100Main Event Seat giveaway satellite I entered. I actually finished ITM in the $400k satellite (72/2400 was the cut). So all in all I've faired better than worse in almost all of the MTTs I've played in.

Again, I'm not trying to brag, just trying to give you guys more perspective here. I'm not conceited in the least bit, and I really don't think I know it all. Please read my posts with that in mind

This doesnt even sound like you have much tourney experience...

I think what dsm was commenting on was that your sample size is too small to really say much. Poker is a long term game, 10 MTTs is extremely short term. I remember posting an 11k hand checkup and being told to come back when I had a bigger sample size because it was obvious I was running hot.

OP, I suggest you play some 10NL 6max, or, if you don't have 20 buyins for it, 4NL or even 2NL. I also suggest you play a lot of it. From what I can read, you're using short-term results and coming to conclusions when your sample size is too small. I also don't like the idea of working for 6 weeks and rolling yourself for 100NL that way, I can see you losing a lot of money if you do that.

Read the basics, play. Your big leaks will make themselves apparent to you after some time playing (When you look at a HH where you lost a buyin and think "Why did I lose there? What could I have done to prevent me losing that buyin"), then your small leaks will become apparent when you post hands. Seriously, no-one's trying to put you down, claim that your unintelligent, or anything else like that. Remove your ego, argue the toss a bit less, play some hands, get better, make money!

If I'm switching from full ring to 6max, should I just use the basic starting hand requirements for FR MP1+ as UTG.

E.g:

MP1 FR = UTG 6max
MP2 FR = UTG+1 6max
CO FR = CO 6max
Button FR = Button 6max

Should I be defending my blinds more than 5% of the time? Are there any other pieces of advice I should know switching from FR to 6max?

I know I need to loosen up for 6max, I just don't know to what degree.

Originally Posted by overflow

dsm: Would you like to quiz me on my situational tournament knowledge? I love a good challenge. I'd also be glad to play you heads up sometime. We need to name the stakes though

Duh, HEADZ UP 4 ROLLZ obv

Just play tight and open up from there is what you should be doing IMO. No problem with playing squeaky while you're learning how to play postflop, plus you need to get a feel for your opponents before you start all that hand chart stuff.. In fact, I think it's ok to play the 19 hand game until you know what you're doing.

This is a 50NL checkup posted in the shorthanded forum, and these stats are pretty damn nitty, yet he's still owning the game:

http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statsyq9.png

Nowt wrong with tightness.

Originally Posted by biondino

Originally Posted by overflow

dsm: Would you like to quiz me on my situational tournament knowledge? I love a good challenge. I'd also be glad to play you heads up sometime. We need to name the stakes though

Duh, HEADZ UP 4 ROLLZ obv

That's solid stake management lolerz

If you're moving to 6 max, then I'd highly recommend considering a Card Runners subscription. There's a 5 video series specifically geared toward pwning low stakes 6 max games, covering preflop hand selection concepts through flop analysis, getting away from a hand, etc. I think it would be great for jumping your game to a winning level.

I don't think you necessarily have to move to 6 max, however. You can be profitable in either form fairly easily. In fact, the biggest difference between the style I'm adopting for 6 max and for FR is that FR has 3 more spots at the table in which I'm mostly forced to play very strong hands. So if you just play very tight in early position, you're going to achieve some of the same. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't move/stay. Just saying that either are options.

I'm going to second Salsa as an FTR member who thinks coaching can be very +EV for the right student, and second most of the people here in thinking that it's not the right option for you right now. I think you would definitely get more out a subscription to card runners or even to poker x factor (mostly MTT stuff, but the cash section is growing).

Finally, I'm going to repeat/expand advice I gave you in your other thread for preflop play. I'm trying to cater this specific to the 10NL level (in that just not doing certain things wrong should make you win) and to some of the things that look wrong about your current approach:
- If you're first in, raise. If you don't think you're raising for value with the cards you hold, fold.
- If you don't have a hand you would have raised from your current position, do not limp behind another limper. Take this two ways: increase your open-raising range in position and decrease your limping range.
- If you don't have a hand you would have raised from the raiser's position, do not call his raise.
- That last bit is doubly true for blind play.

haha 10k fight yo. I just think you havent played enough when you try conveying the reasons why your a winning/losing poker player to a few select hands. Your saying "Well i would have gone deeper than 24th in this tournament if my 89 on a 893 rainbow board didnt get runner runnered..." That to me says you havent played near enough when your giving specific examples to why youve lost. Weve all been there, we all get bads beats, but we dont use those examples to sum up or poker career.

Im also going to agree with JGB that getting a cardrunners subscription will help you out alot, for less than half the cost initially. If you want to play tournaments get a pxf subscription. Having a tutor would help, but i dont think your game is ready for it. I learned alot from soupie and rizen which they didnt tutor me persay, but it was also free. But thats more on the tournament side of things.

Originally Posted by overflow

Yes, I realize that a 2500 hand sample is relatively insignificant, but it is a large enough sample to show that I can play a solid TAG line over an extended session.

Oh dear

2500 hands is like playing one golf hole, getting a par and asserting you are a scratch golfer. Believe me, I love both games, and I've had dilusions I'm great at both. I have over 175k hands in PT, and sometimes I still don't know whether "I'm awesome" or "I suck balls".

Originally Posted by overflow

That was probably worded a bit more harshly than I had intended it to be. All I'm trying to say here, is please don't make the mistake of thinking I'm some dumb 20 year old college kid who saw 2006 main event replays last month and thought "this looks like fun!!!" Isn't it obvious from my posts in the other forums here that I, at the very least, have a moderately decent conceptual understanding of the game? Am I completely off base here? I realize I'm nowhere near being a pro, but I'm by no means a novice. I would say "adept amateur" is the closest thing to an accurate poker label I could give myself. There was a 2500 hand stretch in those 6000 hands where I was playing an Eagle-esque 18.5/14/2.5 game at +9ptBB/100. So I know I have the capability of playing winning poker when I'm playing my A game. Yes, I realize that a 2500 hand sample is relatively insignificant, but it is a large enough sample to show that I can play a solid TAG line over an extended session.

Again, just trying to give you guys some additional perspective here.

I f I read this correctly, you have 6000 hands of poker under your belt?? I play that much on the weekends and most here will confirm not only that but I don't play anywhere near the most hands on this site. Dude, you gotta relax with all this "how smart I am" and "how good I can be" poker is not just about being smart, if it was all the chess champions and mensa members would be pwning pokerstars right now. Instead it's just regular joes, college drop outs and some accomplished degree holders. Poker isn't as much about smarts as it is about memory, experience, balls and patience.

You're not reading that correctly, these are just the stats from the last 3 weeks I've been playing. I took a pretty long break after going through the donk-cycle of pain last summer, $75 -> $1,000 in < 4 days and then $1,000 -> 0 trying to play 100NL and 200NL underrolled. These 6,000 hands are only a microscopic sample of the hands of poker I have played, they just happen to be the hands I've played since I started taking stake management seriously and was actually trying to grind up to higher levels "the right way".

I'm not a newb man.

Please don't draw the conclusion that I'd never played poker until 3 weeks ago

Originally Posted by overflow

I'm not a newb man.

No offence but nothing you say is making you look like anything else. running $75 up to $1000 is a standard "newb" behavior. Losing it all just as quickly is also pretty standard.

You need to leave your ego behind. You are lucky none of the regs on this site are taking you up on your HU e-penis waving contest. Stop boasting about how clever you are and start trying to improve your game.

I'm just trying to be honest here. I'm not trying to be egocentric. All I'm doing is giving you guys as much information as possible so that you'll understand where I'm coming from. It seems so far, that a lot of people are so hung up on the fact that I'm not beating 10NL yet, that they assume (or at least make the inference that) I'm some pompous jerk who doesn't really know anything and needs to be put in his place.

Also, by your own admission, poker is not a humble man's game. The only reason I keep reitterating how smart I am is because people assume I must not be because I'm not a winning player yet.

Id play headsup... but it doesnt sound like he has the money to play the stakes to make it worth it