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Q-Q on cut off

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  1. #1
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    Default Q-Q on cut off

    Game is NL2. I had posted a hand with Pocket jacks last week, and played this one based on the advice I got on that post.


    Button ($0.97)
    SB ($4.52)
    BB ($5.20)
    UTG ($1)
    UTG+1 ($0.55)
    MP ($2.21)
    MP ($1.11)
    MP ($0.68)
    CO-1 CO-1 ($2.16)
    CO Hero ($2.12)

    Preflop: Hero is in the CO with Qs Qd
    2 folds, MP raises to 0.04, 2 folds, CO-1 raises to 0.10, Hero raises to 0.28, 4 folds, CO-1 calls 0.18.

    Flop (0.63) Ts Jh 8s
    CO-1 checks, Hero bets 0.63, CO-1 raises to 1.88, Hero??
  2. #2
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    his raise has committed him, hes prolly not doing this with a naked J although it is possible, I doubt it. I dont think it matters a great deal either way calling vs sets and big draws AJss AKss 99 is abut even money. if he can ever have KK we are loosing but if he shoves more jacks winning this is a small 4 bet pot i'm very unsure of his range here as youve given 0 stats can he have a straight ever? or 2 pair? can he even have AJ ? if he cant have AJ then fold the fuck out of it

    ps. please use a HH converter; I like the weaktight.com... its free to use, just create an account
    Last edited by kickass; 12-04-2011 at 08:04 AM.
  3. #3
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    Thinking a little more about this with the price your getting just jam take a note you just can't fold now.
  4. #4
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    Im not using a stats software. It was early in the game, the villain is unknown.

    He checked the flop, and I pot bet him coz there were draws on the board.
    After he check-raised me, I put him on top pair, probably a set.
    Last edited by maverick007; 12-04-2011 at 01:05 PM.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by xander_xage007 View Post
    Game is NL2. I had posted a hand with Pocket jacks last week, and played this one based on the advice I got on that post.
    having just checked the JJ post - what are the similarities between the situation in that post and this one? In that post a shortstacker called your raise and then donked a dry flop. Here you are facing a 3bet by a fully stacked player pre and then he check raises you on a connected suited flop.

    What range are you putting him on Pre, what reads do you have on him. Readless you pretty much want to give him QQ,KK,AA,AK preflop. QQ is extremely unlikely since you already have two of the queens, KK AA both have you beaten and you are flipping with AK. SO why do you want to make a massive pot preflop that in this situation is probably a marginal hand at best.

    what was your plan if you got reraised Pre? raiser and 3 better both bet small so gave you plenty of odds to set mine pre, or if button and blinds 4bet you could get away cheaply.

    once the flop comes it looks particulary horrible for you. if he has AK , you hitting a set will give him a straight. AA and KK still have you beat. but if the initial range for him was incorrect now any pair from 8's up has you beat except for 99 and that has a open ender.I'd just check it down hopefully and not put any more money in this hand and if he bets i fold, i certainly don't want my stack in the middle on this setup.
  6. #6
    i advise editting out the results of the hand until you get more feedback on the way that you played it. knowing the results will influence the advice you get.
  7. #7
    Its a wet flop so I think you have to bet, but a ½ pot bet would have done the job. I wouldn't wanna go allin on this flop, its just too drawy. I think you are at best flipping, so Id find a better spot.
  8. #8
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    Thanks for the replies guys. What I meant with the similarity of this hand with the pocket jacks one was about having an overpair on the flop.

    The hand was early in the game. I had no reads on the player as such. Im not using a software as of now. But preflop after he called my 4bet, i put him on medium pocket pairs, AK, AJ, AQ. I didnt put him on AA KK coz I thought he would have 5bet/shoved me pre.

    @Keith, so are you saying never to 4bet preflop with QQ? If i were re-raised pre, I'd be pretty sure he has a strong pocker pair. I'd probably call and see the flop. If he'd bet the flop, I'd fold.

    @stripclubjunkie, there were straight and flush draws on board. I usually bet 3/4th pot, but due to the draws, i made a pot bet.
    Last edited by maverick007; 12-04-2011 at 01:41 PM.
  9. #9
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    I completely agree with Keith about the cold 4 bet as I think your gonna be fucked vs his range he continues with unless hes a fucking agro moron who doesnt fold shit then get it in as fast as possible I assumed you had reason for 4 betting not just i has queens raise, I would prolly 4 bet to 40 if that was the case. also I dont think potting the flop was a good idea I mean what do you beat vs any decent range here, unless again he can show up with any Jx but then you really dont need anyone telling you its fine to shove QQ into Jx even if sometimes he has sets.
  10. #10
    If you make a pot sized bet on the flop, you are gonna be pretty much pot-commited by the river, you dont want that on a wet board. If you bet ½ pot you are still giving him bad odds, so if he calls its still a mistake.
  11. #11
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    @kickass, The first raiser just minraised. I didnt even consider his bet. Since the villain re-raised pre, I thought he is iso-raising. Thats the reason why I raised the villain pre.

    @Keith, so what makes you decide whether to 4bet with QQ or just flat call?
  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie View Post
    If you make a pot sized bet on the flop, you are gonna be pretty much pot-commited by the river, you dont want that on a wet board. If you bet ½ pot you are still giving him bad odds, so if he calls its still a mistake.
    Thanks for this advice. I didnt think of it that way. I just wanted to push him out of the hand with my pot bet on this wet board. I was probably results oriented and just wanted to win this hand.


    So in this hand, considering his actions preflop, and after he checked the flop, i should have made a 1/2 pot bet (so that he doesnt get a free card and also i'd not be pot commited), and folded to his check-raise ?
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kickass View Post
    I completely agree with Keith about the cold 4 bet as I think your gonna be fucked vs the range he 3bets with unless hes a fucking agro moron who doesnt fold shit
    No , i'm not saying to never 4bet , it all depends on the situation. we have no reads at all to work on, therefore you have to play it safe and give him a pretty tight 3betting range i.e QQ+,AK.
    secondly we have no idea who the MP initial raiser is, is it the $0.68? its 2nl and theres some weird and wacky lines going on , commonly see the min raise 4bet shove with AA from shorties and full stacked alike.

    thirdly we still have 5 people left to act (btn sb bb mp co-1), do you really bump this pot up and then be faced with a shove all in from one of them.?

    why is a medium pocket pair (i assume you mean 88-JJ), going to be 3 betting let alone calling a 4 bet. ?AJ and AQ are unlikely to call the 4bet either.
    why would you call if you get your 4bet raised ? its likely then to be a shove at 2nl but even if they make it $0.60 you will still have put about a third of your stack in the middle against a hand that is now probably AA or KK. is that sensible?you're likely a 80:20 underdog , you don't have setmining odds, calling a 3bet to fold on a missed flop is usually a leak .....except if its a min 3bet , calling a 4bet to fold on a missed flop is an even bigger leak as the $ involved are bigger and your pot odds are a lot worse.

    if you had stats software and this guy was a tag or nit,they would easily have raised this to a decent size pre and priced out any set mining and i could easily fold this pre
    if the players left to act were tags/nits mp was a calling station/short stack and co-1 was a fish i could 4bet this knowing that i probably have the best hand.
    with no stats , no reads possibly multiway at the flop , i'll setmine
  14. #14
    your replies are also showing some big leaks that you have.

    you overvalue overpairs.
    you are willing to stack off when you put opponent on sets and on drawy boards.
    don't really seem to understand set mining odds.

    since you don't play with stats software , how many tables do you play?how many notes do you make on your opponents


    think about trying the HEM2 trial , you'll get a months trial with it. PT3 has 2 free months trial....or try the free alternative
    SourceForge.net: fpdb
  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    secondly we have no idea who the MP initial raiser is, is it the $0.68?
    Im not sure about the MP raiser. Sorry for the bad hand conversion. I'll use a good converter from now on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    why is a medium pocket pair (i assume you mean 88-JJ), going to be 3 betting let alone calling a 4 bet. ?AJ and AQ are unlikely to call the 4bet either.
    The villain would have wanted to isolate the minraiser. Thats what I thought he was doing. At 2NL usually no one is folding a pocket pair if they have raised pre and then get re-raised. They want to see the flop. Atleast thats what ive seen until now. Maybe I could have removed AJ AQ from his range after he called my 4bet preflop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    why would you call if you get your 4bet raised ? its likely then to be a shove at 2nl but even if they make it $0.60 you will still have put about a third of your stack in the middle against a hand that is now probably AA or KK. is that sensible?you're likely a 80:20 underdog , you don't have setmining odds,
    I could not think of folding my pocket queens without seeing the flop. I would have folded the flop if he bet it and i missed my set. But i now realize this is a leak. I'm starting to understand a bit about the mistake im making here. I'll need to play a few more similar hands to have all these ideas ingrained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    calling a 3bet to fold on a missed flop is usually a leak .....except if its a min 3bet , calling a 4bet to fold on a missed flop is an even bigger leak as the $ involved are bigger and your pot odds are a lot worse.
    How would you have played this hand so far?
    Flat call preflop. If flop checked, then check behind? If villain bet the flop, what would you do with your overpair queens?
  16. #16
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    I was playing 8 tables during my session. It was a big mistake. But i usually play 4-6 tables. I take notes if i get beat or if i notice a pattern in a player.

    Thanks for the free link. HUD will definitely help me make some good decisions post flop. Ive used up my HEM and PT trial. I didnt make full use of it when I had it though. I will invest in it as soon as possible though.
  17. #17
    if you are buying .....deuces cracked subscribers get 30% off hem...not sure about PT3. essentially though it'll costthe same but going through deuces cracked you'll get a months video subscription as well

    have you used up the hem2 trial? I think its a seperate trial period to the hem 1 trial.

    alternatively do a cardrunners get it free promo whilst using the hem2 trial and then by the time the promo is over , you'll have a copy of HEM
    Last edited by Keith; 12-04-2011 at 04:04 PM.
  18. #18
    i would have flatted the3bet ....folded to any 4 bet pre

    postflop may then have played differently ,if i'd led the flop it would have been 2/3 pot and folded to the check raise , if he'd led the flop would have probably folded


    8 tables is too many for a begginner especially without a hud. you want to be watching each opponent every hand , who ar the loose players , who are the tight ones , try and colour code them if you can via the site software (stars lol) ,whos bluffing, who can't fold , who overvalues pocket pairs/overpairs..(these will be pay day when you hit your set)...etc etc

    basically learn the lines that different villains take and whatthey mean. that will pay far better in the long run than playing twice as many tables. try and put players on ranges as the hands play out ..at show down find out how accurate you are. ok you can do this away from the table but at the table you only have a set amount of time to do it just as you would if you actually played the hand.the more that you pracytise this the better you will get and the easier it will be to add tables later.

    i.e learn to play a few tables well rather than a lot badly, then add tables so that you keep playing all your tables well .
    Last edited by Keith; 12-04-2011 at 04:11 PM.
  19. #19
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    flatting pre is certainly +EV. 4-betting may also be ok but it's hard to tell without any stats or reads so i'd probably err on the side of just flatting here seeing as that is absolutely certainly +EV given we have absolute position with the 3rd preflop nuts and only 1/20th of our stacks in the pot.

    as played on the flop, we need ~28% equity against villain's range. which is very close to what we have if villain ever jams a hand which isn't a set or an overpair (ie 99, AsKs). i'd prefer betting slightly smaller, perhaps closer to 2/3 pot, and then we can pretty comfortably fold to a shove. by betting so big on the flop we almost price ourselves in to calling AI vs a range which has us pretty crushed. whereas we could bet/fold a smaller amount, perhaps 40 cents, and i imagine that would be more profitable.
    Last edited by rpm; 12-04-2011 at 05:15 PM.
  20. #20
    Reads are needed to help preflop, calling and 4betting can both be fine depending on players.

    Postflop you don't need to bet pot with so little money left behind, unless he's crazy/aggro it's a very close decision once he shoves and I don't think it matters too much.
  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    your replies are also showing some big leaks that you have.

    you overvalue overpairs.
    you are willing to stack off when you put opponent on sets and on drawy boards.
    This is something I didnt know I was doing. But now that you pointed it out, its an obvious leak of mine. Without reads, I'd probably flat pre and play the flop accordingly.

    If I have overpairs on the flop, I'm usually ready to raise and re-raise villain without checking the flop texture and my bet size.
    But now I'm gonna be more aware of not overbetting the flop with overpairs on a wet board.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    don't really seem to understand set mining odds.
    To be honest, I never thought about set mining. I had heard about the term, but never knew the concept. I looked it up yesterday after you pointed it out. I have been making a huge mistake of folding most pocket fairs pre without thinking about set mining.
  22. #22
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    Flop (0.63) Ts Jh 8s
    CO-1 checks, Hero bets 0.63, CO-1 raises to 1.88, Hero moves all-in for 1.21.

    Turn (4.35) 9c

    River (4.35) 8d

    CO-1 shows Kh Qh
    Hero shows Qs Qd

    CO-1 wins 4.35 with A straight, King high


    Lessons Learnt:

    1. Dont 4bet with QQ without a read on the villain. Flat and play flop accordingly.

    2. Dont be pot committed on a wet board.

    3. Set Mining concept. "Whenever you hold a small pocket pair, seek to call before the flop as long as you can get 8-1 implied odds." Very simply, look at your opponents stack and ask yourself, "Does he have at least 8 times the amount of the raise in his stack?" If the answer is yes, look at your own stack. Is your stack at least 8 times the size of the amount of the call? If the answer to both questions is yes, then CALL and hope to hit your set!
  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    i would have flatted the3bet ....folded to any 4 bet pre

    postflop may then have played differently ,if i'd led the flop it would have been 2/3 pot and folded to the check raise , if he'd led the flop would have probably folded
    If we 4bet pf and the villain raises on the flop, its a fold. But if we flat preflop, then on the flop, you have an overpair. If the villain c-bet, wouldnt you consider calling to see the turn?
  24. #24
    don't rely on 8:1 to make money setmining. you will hit a set 1 every 8 times. butthat relies on you staking your opponent every time you set mine. That just isnt going to happen , theyll hit straights,flushes,quads, miss the flop and fold,not to mention have an overset.
    To set mine profitably work on 15:1 which will build in some leeway for the times they fold or have you beat. This is also why you shouldn't min raise or min 3bet as you price your villains in to setmine you. Its also why you have to be deep with villain in order to set mine in a 3bet pot if they have raised and 3bet properly.

    If we 4bet pf and the villain raises on the flop, its a fold.

    where did I say that? . this is another leak you seem to have , you want a rigid set of rules to play by. The problem with that is that every hand is different, every villain is different.

    You have to look at how your hand interacts with the flop , (and as you move up , how the villains perception of your range of hands interacts with the flop but you don't need that at 2nl as they are all just playing their own cards) and how the villains range interacts with the flop.

    In this case it not only hit his range hard it hit his actual hand as well. Although 3betting KQ with so many left to act and checking that flop shows that he probably loose aggressive.Since it hit him so hard and there were such a lot of cards to come that could help his range a lot and weaken us , i'd rather just keep my money and move on to the next hand rather than play russian roulette with my stack.
    But if we flat preflop, then on the flop, you have an overpair. If the villain c-bet, wouldnt you consider calling to see the turn?
    it would depend on how much he bet .if hes looking to play a big pot why get involved , we may have an overpair but we may still be behind and calling hoping to hit a Q on this flop doesn't help us against his AK hands. This flop just leaves your hand in a shitty spot.
    Last edited by Keith; 12-05-2011 at 05:04 AM.
  25. #25
    Did you read the beginner's digest? If not, stop playing until you do. And when you do play again, play no more than 2 tables at a time. And get hem asap.
  26. #26
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    Thanks for your advice keith and everyone else. There is a lot of scope for improvement.

    Yes outlaw, ive read articles in the digest, not all of them though. Will go through them more often.
  27. #27
    With no reads or anything just get this in. Keep things simple. You have an overpair in a 3bet pot at NL2.

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