Quit poker?

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Originally Posted by biondino

No, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that you HAVE to make compromises and sacrifices in a long term relationship, it's how it works. Whether you're giving up poker, bacon or your ladyboy hooker habit, it's part of life. I'd like it as little as the next man (I get grumpy if I go a week without a ladyboy) but it's sometimes necessary.

Is that so? What lifestyle changes have you forced your girlfriend to make then?

Are you serious? Okay:

1. She had to move continent to be with me
2. connected to 1, she lives 3,000 miles from her mum, who she's incredibly close to
3. She had to move into my flat and, through ignorance and thoughtlessness on my part, wasn't able/allowed to make it her home
4. connected to 3, she hasn't been able to move house as she desperately wants to because of the logistics involved in living with me in my flat
5. she's someone who loves solitude and time to herself and she don't get a lot of that in this house
6. she has spent a lot of time, money and worry gaining the necessary documents to legally remain in the country

And, no doubt, dozens of smaller, personal things which aren't much by themselves but they add up. And I love her for it.

another nomine for "wow this thread made it to a second page so I'll finally check it out... WTF there's not content!?!?!"

OP, I think you should send a PM to TLR and get his thoughts, he lives in Israel and he should be able to give you a perspective.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am not picking apart your post, just using it to express my opinions.

I have been a devout Christian most of my life. So, while I do not share some of your religious preferences or beliefs, I do understand where you are coming from. I have dealt with this issue from my family, friends, coworkers, and religious figureheads since I started playing.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

gambling is not outright forbidden in Judaism. religious Rabbi's allow it, but my situation is quite different as i'm playing for quite a lot more money than they expect and i have bigger plans for it for the future. it's ok to play with friends for $10 or $20 but playing for $1000 is very different.

Is it different for you? How well does your rabbi understand Bill Gates going on a $10 million vacation? There are a lot of people that will warn you against the things that they don't understand. However, if you understand it better than they do, what weight does their advice carry?

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i give 10% of my winnings to charity anyway (annually- not after every session obviously). but even if i gave 50% my rabbi's wouldn't be happy.

Does it matter if your rabbis are happy? Shouldn't it be God that you please? I don't want to mock your religious leaders, but I do want you to be wary. People will let you down, they will fail, and they will make bad decisions no matter who they are. Especially if they do not understand the situation.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i love the game of poker. i don't feel bad taking players money on the net (i can't even see them). i realize the ups and downs of poker. but other's don't and it can ruin their lives.

Everyone is responsible for themselves. You cannot be responsible for this. That is the essence of free will. People will do what they want to do, and what feels good, no matter the consequences. You are not taking advantage. You are simply taking your own separate risks, with your own separate wins and losses.

To finish this long post; I think that what you should do is pray. Stop talking to other people about it. As I said, people will let you down, and their opinions will always be biased. Go to the source of the knowledge. Understand the situation between you and Him, and then decide the best course. Sorry for the long post, but as I said, this subject is close to my heart. God bless, and good luck.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

another nomine for "wow this thread made it to a second page so I'll finally check it out... WTF there's not content!?!?!"

I think this thread is really interesting. I would have never read it if he hadn't posted in the BC

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Gospel according to eupho: "Don't believe what some group tells you, believe what I tell you" Smile

Adding a smiley at the end is the emoticon equivalent of "No offense, but..." So just say what you mean to say. I'm a pretty hard guy to offend.

The LOL and smiley were to indicate that *I* was amused. I see something funny in the argument "Listen to me: don't listen to other people" no matter how much it's dressed up in the popular ideals of the day.

It doesnt make sense to me that some people take a religion and feel they have to accept *every single piece* of it. Religion is man made, and as such it is subject to human fallibility and religious-politics.

Accept that which you accept, and reject that which you reject. God passed down 10 laws. The rest were created by man.

Well either one sees religion as being God-made (and therefore you'd have to accept every bit that actually came from God) or they consider it made by people wiser than themselves. Which again makes you more likely to accept the ideas even if you find them hard.

There is also the very important concept of community. Western society often encourages individualism to the point of egotism. But that's by no means an ideal everyone has to endorse. We don't all necessary beleive that human beings are smartest when they're thinking individually (or perhaps more correctly: individualistically).

But regardless of all this, OP's problem is one that a lot of people have with poker. Their moral/ethical code, whether it be religious or secular often has a "gambling=bad" and "poker=gambling" notion.

There are very few people here, if any, who are really qualified to discus the ins-and-outs of Judaism and the Torah with OP; and your second paragraph there kinda indicates you're in the NOT category.
As a Christian I'm also arguing from a different basis, so instead of trying to convince him that his religion is wrong as regards poker I'm thinking we should perhaps be looking at the poker side of the equation, is he wrong about what poker is?

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Yea, I don't like the adding a smiley so you don't come off as a douche when you clearly wanted to make a douche-esque comment.

otherwise, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee discussing religion on the interwebs, no way this thread ends nicely.

How's the making-douchey-comments-without-a-smiley working out for you?

It's not really a discussion of religion. If anything it's non-religious people making statements about religion, especially OP's.

The more wider-appealing issues are not so much religion (because the relgious authorities seem to be divided) so much as about ethics and community.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

How's the making-douchey-comments-without-a-smiley working out for you?

meh, seems to work for me, pretty sure everyone loves me around here anyways :P

Would this be a good place for me to post whore?

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Would this be a good place for me to post whore?

Nope. Don't post whore in other people's legit threads, please. Thanks.

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Would this be a good place for me to post whore?

Nope. Don't post whore in other people's legit threads, please. Thanks.

Since apparently my sense of humor didn't translate well, I'll trade levity for a couple of two-centsers... (is that even a word...?)

1) Religion by definition demands that you accept an arbitrary set of practices and beliefs. They may not seem arbitrary to the insider, as each has been wrapped over centuries or through careful planning in a myriad of justifications. But that doesn't change the fact that they are indeed arbitrary and dependent on acceptance and at least some derivative of faith to become rules to live by. And this makes complete sense, as without faith (or selective vision, belief, awareness, call it what you will...), religion has no purpose and, by its own doctrine, would cease to exist.
2) Don't eat pork. Alcohol is sin. Dancing and music too. Men shouldn't come in physical contact with any member of the opposite sex outside of wedlock. Poker is bad. The lists of rules to choose from go on forever. So to make it easier, we've organized them into groupings that we call theological structure and placed neato names at the head of each... 497 varieties of Christianity, 82 of Judaism, a whole bunch o' derivatives of Islam... and that's just the major three. Makes it easier for people to pick which group of rules they believe in and align themselves with others similarly disposed...
3) So given 1 & 2, it really comes down to what you choose to believe and who you want to be similar in belief system to. That should narrow it down a bit. You want to stay aligned with your family's belief system? Easy... I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you what it is, what it's called and how to adhere to it. Concerned about compatibility with a future wife? Valid issue... there are reasons why you don't find many Hasidic Jews married to Mormons (sic. random pairing selected to demonstrate point only...) You gotta be aligned in what you believe. So you either pick the belief system you want and then go looking for people who agree, or find the person you want to spend the rest of your life with and believe accordingly.

4) Yeah, there is a pesky 4... If you want to introduce the "which one's right?" question into the mix, then sadly you'll find yourself mired in an intractable mess. I guess in those cases you pick what you fear most and make whatever choice you feel will best deter it... Then pray like hell that those people who told you that would work got it right in the first place...

So end two-center... no, this isn't an attempt to post-whore... and I sincerely wish you best in figuring this all out, as I'd take "quads on the flop" odds that this goes well beyond the issue of whether or not to play poker for you....

Cheers!



(damn... that's some deep pontifications right there... )

Wow

Wow, touchy subject

As Tai mentioned I am a non-practicing jew and I live in Israel.

There are two main issues in your post I think that need addressing, one is religion's view on poker and one is the jewish community view on poker.
I can only relate from what I know about it from my life here.

First and foremost since we are discussing beliefs 'rational' arguements such as 'poker is not gambling hence it is ok' is pretty much out of the window, when you believe in a religion you accept some stuff as is, even if it does not make much sense to viewers who do not follow your belief.

Regarding the religion view on poker, I have some 2nd hand knowledge about it since a friend of mine in our weekly home game struggles with the same issues, and as I understand it poker is OK as a friendly game for insignificant amounts of money, and it shady but on the wrong side from there.
At least in your case it seems that the reason you play online is more for the money then for the enjoyment of the game, and that the money is significant to you, I am not in position to say whether or not you should continue or stop playing, but I am saying that I understand where the conflict came from. It was probably not an issue when you played once in a while for a few bucks when you started, and now as itbecomes more 'serious' it became a big deal.
If it is really a big concern for you maybe you should consult a Rabbi but tell him your exact position and devotion to the game, and not discuss it on the therotical level only.

Regarding poker and the community, I do not know the jewish community you live in, and I can only imply from the knowledge I have in religious jewish communities in Israel. Online poker is simply something you do not do, and it is viewed very badly by others, and in the religous jewish community this can affect who you will marry, your status in the community and the way you and your kids are viewed. Ofcourse it does not have to be common knowledge to everyone, but if it is something you do on a daily basis it will probably come out, especially if you will be married and have kids.
Again I cannot tell you what to do and what is the correct thing, the religious jewish community lifestyle is something that is very far from the way I live my life and I do not understand the codes and systems of this community well, if you plan to continue to live a major part of your life as part in this community and you continue to seriously play poker you should be ready for some rough times, and you need to decide if poker is worth it or not.

i gave up poker in the end. religious reasons. thanks for all the advice.

good luck in the future.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i gave up poker in the end. religious reasons. thanks for all the advice.

good luck in the future.

Hope the path you chose will bribg you happiness

Wow, now that's strength of will. I really respect this kid.

Good for him. Makes me glad I'm an agnostic though. I doubt whatever created this universe gives much of a monkey's arse whether or not we all play poker or chew tobacco or sing the Hallelujah Chorus every morning. Still, nice of him/her/it to set it all up for us, all things considered.

meh

Being a non-practicing Jew (and living with Southern Baptist In-laws) I know a thing or two about the issues with Poker and the religious aspects of your life.

Poker and Gambling:
For me there are two types of poker. 1 - The poker which is a game of skill by which you measure your skill versus another person/other people and the only way you can truly keep score is by the money you make. If you think this is a crazy attitude, this is the exact way Investors and people who work in the big financial institutes think. It comes down to $$ in regards to who is Top Dog. 2 - The second type of poker is the gambling side. This is when you're looking to take that big risk to win the big pot. Correct play means nothing to you, you're just as likely to put your money on 72o as you are on AA (extreme example I know). In essence, you want to gamble with your money as if you're betting the horses.

The pros are able to merge the two types, Freddy Deeb, Elezra, in some regards Daniel N do this the most. But they do so with the complete understanding that it's an image so that they can get paid off in the future. In essence they are playing the gambler to win as an investor.

Why am I sprouting this nonsense? Because in a religious environment, or even a very "morality conscious" one, these two types of poker doesn't exist. People don't understand if you're all about having the skills, with the right bankroll management, there is no way you could ever go bust. Barry Greenstein helps out charities with his money, Scotty Ngyeun does exactly the same thing, as (I believe) does Men Ngyeun and Johnny Chan. They contribute something back into a world that gives them the chance to earn crazy amounts of money and have fun at the same time.

It's all about how much you want to give back to society. If you're going to get a "good" job, earning a "good" wage and not give anything to charity, not help out society in anyway then you're doing nothing but fitting in with the norm because of peer pressure (unless it is what you really want, and I don't think it is reading your opening post). But image playing poker and being able to donate money to your Synagogue, helping build more Synagogues in your area or open up new wings for a hospital all because you stuck with something you love and it brought in enough money to affect other people's lives.

It's never about how or where you get your money from but what you do with that money for other people that counts. I know a few people with a LOT of money, one is very tight and "Scrooge-like" the other can't stop helping charities. They both have earned their money by doing things that society doesn't consider the norm. But they are both extremely happy.

Do what you are happy doing and make a difference whilst you're doing it. Offer to pay off someone's debt and see if they turn down "poker money" rather than "work money". They are taking the high-road with you because they can. Stand by your principles. If your principles are to give up poker, do so. But if they are to keep playing and make a difference by giving back to society, go for it mate.

And I'll see you at the table, because I'm looking to influence society with this game of ours.

Originally Posted by sejje

Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker.

this is not entirely true. i forget the direct verse, but it's an overinterpretation of the verse where you're not supposed to make something from nothing, that you have to work for what you earn. different denominations will agree or disagree that gambling is a sin.

Yeah, that's not true. It totally depends on the denomination. Even within a single denomination sometimes you'll have different church leaders with different opinions.

Originally Posted by TLR

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i gave up poker in the end. religious reasons. thanks for all the advice.

good luck in the future.

Hope the path you chose will bring you happiness

vnh

Originally Posted by arborman

Good for him. Makes me glad I'm an agnostic though. I doubt whatever created this universe gives much of a monkey's arse whether or not we all play poker or chew tobacco or sing the Hallelujah Chorus every morning. Still, nice of him/her/it to set it all up for us, all things considered.

Damn straight

If God had not meant for man to play poker, he would not have given us the "Dealer Button".