Rules question

This happened at our weekly bar league tourney. I looked at QJ of spades and decided to call a preflop raise. The hand ended when I made a river call against a player who tried a bluff with an ace on board after I had paired my queen. When I called, the player said "good call" and flipped up T5, total air. I said "queens" and flipped up my cards.

When I did, there were 3 cards. Somehow the a red 3 had gotten into my cards. I have no clue how this happened. Nobody saw a misdeal, and when I checked my cards preflop I definitely didn't see three cards. The only other possibility I can think of is someone mucked and their card slid under mine, which still seems very unlikely. (I asked the woman next to me, whom I have played with many times and been friendly with, if she had the 3, and she said no.)

My question is how should this hand have been resolved? By the letter of the law, I assume I didn't have an argument since I had 3 cards, no matter how the third got there. On the other hand, it's obvious what the intent of the hand was: villain bluffed river and got called down. Obviously I wasn't calling him down with the 3. I wouldn't have called preflop with J3.

We called over the tourney manager, and he said, "We had this same thing happen last week. We have to give everyone their chips back." I didn't dispute this since I know he tries to be equitable, but I was upset. (I went out about a hour or so later, after the bubble and in the points, and he said, "I'm really glad to see you made the points. I felt bad making that call." No problem.) But I suppose I could have been even worse off than that and he could have declared my hand mucked.

I read an column in Card Player a couple months ago that suggested disputes should be resolved fairly according to the intent of the hand, not necessarily to the intent of the law (or rule). What do you think?

Originally Posted by deacon_bluez

This happened at our weekly bar league tourney. I looked at QJ of spades and decided to call a preflop raise. The hand ended when I made a river call against a player who tried a bluff with an ace on board after I had paired my queen. When I called, the player said "good call" and flipped up T5, total air. I said "queens" and flipped up my cards.

When I did, there were 3 cards. Somehow the a red 3 had gotten into my cards. I have no clue how this happened. Nobody saw a misdeal, and when I checked my cards preflop I definitely didn't see three cards. The only other possibility I can think of is someone mucked and their card slid under mine, which still seems very unlikely. (I asked the woman next to me, whom I have played with many times and been friendly with, if she had the 3, and she said no.)

My question is how should this hand have been resolved? By the letter of the law, I assume I didn't have an argument since I had 3 cards, no matter how the third got there. On the other hand, it's obvious what the intent of the hand was: villain bluffed river and got called down. Obviously I wasn't calling him down with the 3. I wouldn't have called preflop with J3.

We called over the tourney manager, and he said, "We had this same thing happen last week. We have to give everyone their chips back." I didn't dispute this since I know he tries to be equitable, but I was upset. (I went out about a hour or so later, after the bubble and in the points, and he said, "I'm really glad to see you made the points. I felt bad making that call." No problem.) But I suppose I could have been even worse off than that and he could have declared my hand mucked.

I read an column in Card Player a couple months ago that suggested disputes should be resolved fairly according to the intent of the hand, not necessarily to the intent of the law (or rule). What do you think?

I'm no rules expert but here is how I see it... first off you need new cards, and people need to wipe the sticky wing sauce off their hands before playing... anyway...

The intent of the hand was irrelevant, you showed a hand with an extra card, that means you violated the game by having too many cards. That said, you did not do it intentionally so you cannot be unjustly punished. With all of that information, I think the tourney manager made the right call, simply putting the chips back, declare the hand null and void and redeal from the same positions.

Yeah it kind of sucks but I'm pretty sure this is the correct ruling.

It could have been worse-- you could have been called to forfeit the hand instead of getting your chips back.

I'm not an expert but I think it falls under the 'every player is responsible for protecting their hand hand' general rule. If you let your cards touch the muck (or if you let the muck touch your cards, in this case?) then it's on the player.

They couldn't tell if you get dealt a 3rd card preflop so it looks like a good call here. Not much anyone can do.

It's only barely related to this, but I'm reminded of a maniac/retard ball cap&sunglasses wearing kid in Vegas at Mandalay Bay that made a nonsensical play on the flop after it went bet-call-call, he called, it was raised behind him, back to the bettor who folded, another fold, a call, then the kid decides to push in (his rather short stack)-- except the dealer accidentally mucked the kid's cards when he collected the initial bettor's mucked cards. He didn't get his call money back, but at least he didn't lose his push money.

The board was 775 and the kid bitched and carried on about wanting to get his 75 back. That is, until showdown when the 2 people in the pot had J7 and A7.

Sorry for the tangent. I just remember that kid from that trip so clearly.

My thoughts:

I like the ruling.

This was a pretty favorable ruling for you. If extra card was a mucked card, then your hand should have been dead. If you were dealt 3 cards, then it should be a misdeal. Although, I'm not sure if it matters how much action has gone on before the mistake was discovered.