Self Evaluation

I think i realized today that i suck at poker. I think i know whats going on but in reality lol who knows. I mean so ok i turned 5 dollars into 85 dollars playing 1-2c with the exception of 1 time i sat with 15 dollars at a 25nl table and worked it up to 40 and left. I don't have the patience for the game. i don't and its hard to admit my faults because i know i'm probably gonna get eaten alive by every member of this forum lol.

I just loose my patience playing fucking penny poker, nickle poker, dime poker. But id loose it anyway if i loose a few buy ins its like the end of the world. I try to get over it but i can't. Most the time i just log off but today i just cashed out. I have played poker for like 5 years, im probably just about even overall, maybe down a little bit. I read strategy after strategy, use this that and the other but i honestly think im just one of those players who cant handle the swings. I mean one bad hand and i could just go through the roof, even though i know its just the name of the game. I dont handle losing well.

I dont know what the point to this blog was, All i know is i cant waste my time playing micro stakes, and at the same time i cant get so damn mental over losing 3 buy ins to knuckleheads or bad beats or just bad choices.

I don't know what i'm going to do, i geuss relax and maybe freeroll for a while or something. I used to have a dream making a living or part time living playing online poker, but after 5 years i think i have to accept the facts. I should just play for shits and giggles and treat it as a hobby, give up on the whole making a living or part time living from it. i just cant help but think my time could be better spent elsewhere. i mean i probably put in like 70 hours for that 75 bucks, trying to get to the next level. i just feel my time is more valuable than that. i like poker, but the fun is gone. I dont wanna quit or anything stupid like that. i'm just evaluating everything out loud i geuss.

I know i'm not good enough to go pro, even semi pro. I could probably read all the books in the world but it wouldnt matter because im one of those naturally unlucky people. I dont whatever this blog is long and i'm going to bed now.

Ego is a terrible thing for poker. It's the thing I have fought the whole time and cause me to lose a $5K BR in two months. Lose the ego to win at poker, I finally figured it out, took me three years of persistence. Luckily that's one of my traits too.

Sleep is good.
I'm sure that there are many players who actually can relate to what you've written here in one form or another.
I too have read every freak'n book, every article etc. that I can get may hands on but am actually addicted to that stuff... and like it.

I think (I mean "I know") my biggest leak in poker is in the Poker Mindset & psychology stuff..... ie. 'losing the ego' being a big part of that. It is for sure the area of my game that I find I need to work on the most at this stage of the game.

Good Luck on your path.

I don't see why people would eat you alive for admitting your leaks. You know you lack patience and you are too ego attached to the outcome. Neither trait is etched in stone for all eternity. You've just got some things to work on. Just because you're not a pro, doesn't mean you can't focus on improving by shoring up your game. That's what we're all here to do. I've got more than my share of leaks that I'm working on too.

Take some time off and come back ready to learn and improve.

I really think microstakes is about playing for the fun and challenge of it, not for money. Treating a win as good, regardless of the $s (or cents) involved is key.

I'm looking at it as playing the micros are serving the apprenticeship and learning the trade. Once I qualify then I can start to earn some money .

In all honesty, I almost didn't write this because I think it has not only all been covered before, but I also hope this post was not just a frustrated tired rant.

Royal, I ground my way through many months of micro limit poker only to realize it was straining my life, my relationship with my family and my sanity... I wasn't making headway, wasn't dedicated enough and just couldn't believe these 'idiots' could be beating me online... just look at how bad they suck.

While I didn't lose my bankroll, it built slowly and then stabilized around the $500 mark and hasn't risen, I've come to a conclusion that has benefited me greatly, away from poker. I have turned myself into a casual player. I enjoy taking the occasional risk, as long as it isn't too damaging to my bankroll, I play maybe one night a week now for a couple of hours. Before I was playing 4-5 nights a week for 4-5 hours a night. Poker has again become more of a fun distraction... I'm not risking my own money, I'm making a little here and there, and basically using it as a way to escape the stress of life.

Now... that plan might not work for you, and you may have aspirations well beyond mine (I want to get to 100NL eventually, making some light part time money playing 3 nights a week... but I've become very realistic about it... if I don't make it I'm not worried... when the weather turns bad and I get trapped in the house again, I'm going to try to start over on getting skills up and getting more serious... because I know I can beat the average players if I dedicate myself to actually learning this time...

So lay back, take it easy and hopefully some of this made some sense to you or someone else reading... Good Skill (not Good Luck, skilled players make their own luck).

Very nice thread.

WARNING: Just a personal hunch

I symphatize with you Royal, and its difficult for me to hear about your broken dreams.

After a while here on this site I have smartened up- I realized that my major upswings was probably a combination of good skill and a set up from the poker site. Virtually all players I have spoken to started their online poker adventure with a nice upswing.

IMO- the poker sites (share holders) have little to lose by manipulating the deck and remove some of the skill gap between players thus keeping the rake coming in. They may very well hurt the poker industry at large, but that have not stopped businesses from acts of greed in the past.

Points:
1. Those players I rank as excellent at my site/level is still stuck on the same level after several months. They should, with the amounts of hands they put in, pull out a profit of 3bb/hour*#table.

My theories is that
1) They cash out so much they dont rise in level.
2) A very subtle "doom switch" makes it harder for winning players to win pots, at the same time new players and losers are given a subtle "boom switch".

Every since I was regarded as a "valuable player", I have been running waaaaay below expectation. One 7 outer is my only suckout since Jan 1. And when I got sucked out I was still happy- making money right...!

Now I am getting all paranoid about the poker industry. They have the means to cheat and they have the incentive. We must certainly be fundementalists to rule out the possibility of a dirty game.

Since no governments are controlling the industry- I have a feeling that money speaks. Cigital and Kahnawake is probably very reputable controllers, but since there is no governments who overlooks the investigations I think that stamps of approval can be bought.

Stating that the poker industry is "rigged" is a statement without evidence- but the same can be said about the those who claim it isnt. I am becoming sceptical, and hope that poker will become legal and run by firms in respectable countires- not Malta and Gibraltar...

Please consider this rambling as whining from a player who is experiencing his first long downswing. But if we can detect some subtle manipulation of the game we can take advantage of that knwoledge.

They have admitted it.

Even noted poker authority Ed Miller is getting suspicious;

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...ine-poker.html

My plan, which may or may not work for you, is to first start @ the beginning and enjoy playing poker. Don't worry about win-rate, going pro, or paying the rent. Just enjoy poker because you like to play poker. If playing for pennies is less fun than not playing poker, then you probably don't really like poker. I started from scratch depositing $100 to play $2NL. Sure, I thought I was definitely capable of higher limits from the start and could certainly afford to start higher and lose it, but online poker can be tough, so just start @ the beginning and see where it leads you.

Next, focus on learning poker, growing, and moving up. Move up when you are rolled for no less than 30 buy-ins for the next level. If and when you get knocked down to 20 buy-ins, move down. The goal is to see how high you can get and maintain a long term win-rate. Once you figure out how high you can get, you just calibrate to see out how many tables you can play or stakes and still have fun. If you can win 3 times as much @ $25NL than $50NL, then maybe it's best to play $25NL. If playing $25NL 8 tables gives you half the win rate of playing 6 tables, play 6. After large sample of just building the bankroll, whether it's @ $200NL or $2NL, give moving up another shot.

It's a long process because we're always changing as players and the players around us are always changing, too. But, if you really like the game, don't put any undue pressure on yourself, and go in with the right attitude, most players who work @ it can usually be a winner somewhere and still have fun. Find out where that is for you.

Give it a rest pwnsnotsomuch obv. Ed miller did not say they rigged the deck. Anyone with brains knows the same thing he said. There are members of this site, too many to mention making well over $100K a year, and even 10 times more earning livings playing poker. How do you explain this?

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

They have admitted it.

Even noted poker authority Ed Miller is getting suspicious;

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...ine-poker.html

Ugh. Let's not turn this into a "poker is rigged" thread. If you think your poker site is rigged, do a scientific study from scratch and prove it. All your hand histories are available at your fingertips. Play enough hands and you'll find your 2 outer happens about 5% of the time as it should. There was a legitimate cheating scandal @ UB and it was exposed. Guess how? The players who were being cheated did exactly what I mentioned and plotted statistics for all the players they played against, including the cheater, and his distribution was WAY outside the normal plot and stuck out like a sore thumb.

I am just suspicous and nothing else. As long as there is a possibility I can not rule it out.

I am not saying its impossible to win- hey doubled my roll 135 times my initial deposit last year- no MTT!

I am just excercising some healthy scepticicm. Besides PS DID manipulate the deck in triple draw.

From a rational point of view we cannot rule out the possibilty its rigged and thats my and Eds point.

For starters, you stated you had two "theories" one of which included a "doom" switch and "boom" switch. That's beyond suspicion - that's explicitly stating your belief that you think it's rigged. Next, none of your suspicions about manipulating the deck have anything to do with the original post.

They openly admitted to rigging and explained why. There are not enough cards in the deck to play triple draw without a reshuffle. They just allowed players not to receive a card they had already received and discarded, which would have made the "OMG it's rigged!!" guys go off even more. Everyone knew about this, it was above board.

Yes they could rig the deck, but they would in no way rig it against certain individuals, they would only ever rig it vs the rake. Still the same game, and the winners would still win, we would just pay a little more rake so there would be more losers overall. Easy fix, just be one of the best at the tab le and beat the rake.

Originally Posted by Jason

Ugh. Let's not turn this into a "poker is rigged" thread. ...

Too late.

I tilted a few weeks ago and withdrew most of my BR and started over at 5NL. I took a week of and it helped tremendously.

I also figured out why poker tilts me so much. It's because it's not an "exact" game. You can do everything perfectly and still lose (for a while anyway). I know there are probably many engineers who play that are used to getting the exact answer at work when you perform every step perfectly. Then you play poker and everything is not so exact.

If engineering was like poker, I would have probably become a doctor where things aren't exact. Then they would say you "Practice Engineering" so you have outs if you screw up.

Do you want to stop sucking or not?

Originally Posted by Jason

For starters, you stated you had two "theories" one of which included a "doom" switch and "boom" switch. That's beyond suspicion - that's explicitly stating your belief that you think it's rigged. Next, none of your suspicions about manipulating the deck have anything to do with the original post.

True. I only had a couple of minutes because I was on my way to the forrest.

Not theories- rather vague, unthoughtful hypotheses.

Jyms- I agree the manipulation of triple draw was done for an obvious reason- not enough cards. But still, its manipulation and at least it opened the door for some new discussion about whether or not online poker is rigged.

Rigging against individual players seems unlikely- but its not difficult to achieve programming vice. There is a lot of possible ways for them to generate more rake, but none has ever been proved.

My belief is that there are numerous of subtle, undetectable ways for a poker site to manipulate the game to their advantage profit vice. If any of these are utilized, we can not know.

P.S- If this is highly inappropriate to talk about, send me a PM and request me to stop. But until then, ill speak my mind.

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

I also figured out why poker tilts me so much. It's because it's not an "exact" game. You can do everything perfectly and still lose (for a while anyway).

I understand that and yes it can be very frustrating, but you have to remember the other side to the equation. If the game was "exact", as you wish it would be, poker would turn into chess. The best players would always win, not just long term, but usually every hand. The fish wouldn't even try to play. No one would play LeBron James 1 on 1 in basketball for money, but many fish do try to sit down with some of the best players in poker online and live because they believe they can win often enough or get lucky. Fish play because they hope they get good cards and win. When they don't win, it's because they were unlucky. Or, they just lie to themselves - 80% of poker players rate themselves above average.

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Not theories- rather vague, unthoughtful hypotheses.

Whether they are beliefs, theories, hunches, or hyptheses, they will not help your game and I still don't think they have anything to do with this thread

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

My belief is that there are numerous of subtle, undetectable ways for a poker site to manipulate the game to their advantage profit vice. If any of these are utilized, we can not know.

Ok, so what? If they are subtle, you won't even notice them. Your 2 outer will hit 5.1% of the time instead of 5%. It only matters if it statistically deviants significantly over a large sample in a way that directly, maliciously steals money from you. All those things should be able to be proven if true.

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

If this is highly inappropriate to talk about, send me a PM and request me to stop. But until then, ill speak my mind.

I just don't think it contributes to this thread. I'm not admin and don't know the rules, but I think a debate about whether or not poker is rigged is fine if you start your own thread for it. I disagree that it currently is rigged @ Stars or Tilt, but if someone has proof otherwise, I'm always interested and we always have to police the sites and other cheaters to make sure cheating doesn't start up in the future.

I still think my posts has something to do with self-evaluation. What does a winning player think about himself after several months of break even play way below EV?

1. He is cool about it and negative variance is something he expects.
2. He thinks less about himself. Maybe I was not so good after all?
3. He gets paranoid- because in his mind there is no possibilities he could ever break even after 20K hands. The GAME must be rigged.

I admit I am starting to fall into category 3. For a long stretch I was in category 1 blaming variance. Option 2 was never an option.

For me that was my minds answer to the results that was less than expected.

Since results does not reflect the quality of your game, I think self evalution is very difficult in poker. If we lose a 100 M dash we gladly accept defeat, but if we lose in poker we create excuses for ourselves.

My recent flagging of the possibility of poker being rigged, is probably my ego trying to defend the recent break even stretch I experienced.

I suck at poker. I dont have enough time to play and to improve. I usually play when i am tired. I made a 1st deposit of $50 and I overplayed my BR by playing 2 games at Guantlet, 2-7 triple draw ($4 BI), and $1 MTT (considering 100x BR rule) and now I need to make a secong deposit. I am not sure if I should reload though, under these circumstances.

I just want to thank all of you for leaving your 2cents. I wasnt just ranting last night. I dont care if you want to talk about online poker being rigged or whatever. I will just say this if you have any suspicions of it being rigged than quit playing online poker. Play at a cino or something man, don't put yourself through all the drama because you will never feel confident when your at a virtual table if you think that its manipulated in any way.

Anyways like i was saying last night, i think im just gonna cool out for a while play some freerolls and treat it more as a hobby than anything else and just kind of see how it goes. I'm not gonna play nearly as much as i was because i'm not making any real money doing it and it takes away the fun of playing. I'm still going to play strategic poker when i do play, its not like i'm not going to play seriosly just because i realized that i really dont have a future in poker, i do love the game and who knows maybe some day things will change. i will remain optomistic, keep playing here and there. Ive been thinking more about mtt play because i am a better tournament player than a cash game player.

Who knows but im gonna marinate on some of the things you all have said, laugh about the rigged argument just because i hear it so ofton and just chill out.

This thread tilts me. Seriously. Say it with me, "Pos-i-tive Think-ing"...

I did not start my poker career with an upswing. I lost almost my whole deposit the first month, broke even the second month and finally won in my third month. It took time and work.

"Pos-i-tive Think-ing"

Wise words Royal and Airles.

Treating it as a hobby sounds good. Integrating poker into a rich life is easier than vice versa.

If my paranoia about the integrity of online poker is inhibiting my growth as a poker player, I must seriously reconsider my future and time allocated to playing/thinking about poker.

But as you said Royal, you love this game for other reasons than money alone. What a feeling to win a tourney or make a perfect valuebet on river! Even if the win cant buy you a Big Mac it still feels good. We should strive after taking all which is good about poker and leave the bad.

This can be achieved by removing our expectations, and just enjoy every strategical decision.


Just to bury the hatchet. This is my view about rigging;
1. I do not know whether online poker is rigged or not, but both options are possible.

Well i originally posted that i cashed out and i remember cashing out but apparently it got cancelled or something. anyhow i still had 75 bucks in their so i said f it and played a 50 heads up match. i know right great brm, but i wanted to take a shot and if i lost i would still have enough to play the penny bullshit. if i can turn 5 into 85 im sure i can do it with 30. anyways i won that heads up match and it put me up to 125 i played 3 heads up 2 dollar matches and won 2 out of 3 and now ive been playing 5nl and took a few people out so now im up to 147. So thats my update. its friday so i got nothing to do but play poker. lol. i am going to not play during the week, ive decided that i think when i play all week it just gets to be to much. so friday nightrs saturdays and sundays are going to be my playing days. im sticking to 5nl no more sitting with more than half my br like a fool.i got 340 fpps to go before i unlock my 50 dollar bonus, that will help me out. im gonna lose my ego and expect nothing and just do my best to always play my A game. JYMS how long it take you to build what you have?

It's on page 5 of my OP. Click the banner

have u tried going the sng route? i switched a few months ago because the cash games got boring and stale for me as well. i did good for quite some time at the cash games. but eventually it got to be soooo routine and auto pilot i couldnt sit through a hand without watchin tv or surfin. just ended up breaking even cuz i couldnt focus anymore.
switched a while ago, started same way as cash at the 1.20s and just kept goin up. i mean u get bad beats and dumbasses everywhere u go. but at least by the time u were half way thru the game was interesting, completely different then the first few rounds cuz the blinds get so large. it can be bingo towards the end but keeps it exciting. its also for me easier stop for the day if im runnin bad or whatever cuz it usually wont last more than an hour and a half. no rebuys on a table trying to chase losses against a dumass. if i get knocked out for whatever reason and feel bad about it i just wont fire up another. dunno i was fed up with cash and switching to sngs kinda revitalized me and my poker. making more here than i was at cash. maybe give it a shot.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I did not start my poker career with an upswing. I lost almost my whole deposit the first month, broke even the second month and finally won in my third month. It took time and work.

x2!

I swore off OL poker for years because I would get killed but then head to the casino and do well live. Which is why I only have stats on late 08 and now into 09.

I would strongly recommend anyone getting a coach long before they deem the online game rigged. Not because your game may be weak. But because you may have changed something and not noticed it.

The best players OL play sick amounts of volume and make a good amount of money at it. Even if it is rigged, I would still take a rigged game with the possibility of making tons of money than not playing at all.

I think this is a common theme - people playing 5nl but all the while dreaming desperately of making a living etc from playing poker. Imo this is the way to guarantee you won't ever achieve that, you're putting enormous pressure on yourself which you're ill equipped to deal with.

Look at anyone who is highly successful in their field - sportsmen, actors, journalists, great politicians, scientists etc. A lot of them will be earning huge sums of money for doing what they do. But do you think that was their obsession when they were training for their sport or studying for their PhD? No, their obsession was the thing itself, not the financial rewards that will come of it.

We've all seen those 4 or 5 year old posts by Spoon, ISF etc when they were starting out like the rest of us. Few of them say "hai der I wanna make $100k+ making poker plzthxbye". Instead they all demonstrate a fascination and love of the game.

At the end of the day, nothing in life is worth doing if you don't enjoy it.

Just my 2c.