Is that a set sir?

Put me on cards, you are pl3 here.
dealt to pl3

$100nl, pl5 is button
pl1 $125
pl2 $89
pl3 $177
Miffed $225
pl4 $65
pl5 $229
pl6 $100
pl6 posts sb $.5, pl1 posts bb $1.
pl2 folds pl3 raises $4 to $4 Miffed calls pl4 folds pl5 calls pl6 calls pl1 folds

Flop As 6c Th
pl6 checks pl3 bets $12 Miffed raises $17 to 30 pl5 folds pl6 folds pl3 raises $30 to $60 Miffed is all in Pl3 calls

pl3 shows
Miffed shows ?


A bit later...
dealt to pl3

$100nl, pl5 is button
pl1 $135
pl2 $56
pl3 $180
Miffed $380
pl4 $145
pl5 $209
pl6 $95
pl6 posts sb $.5, pl1 posts bb $1.

pl2 folds pl3 raises $4 to $4 Miffed calls pl4 folds pl5 folds pl6 calls pl1 folds

Flop As 8c 4h
pl6 checks pl3 bets $12 Miffed raises $17 to 30 pl5 folds pl6 folds pl3 raises $30 to $60 Miffed is all in Pl3 folds

Miffed shows ?

What do i have in each case ? I know this looks straight forward! But bear with me.

First: set
Second: air but bluffing to have a set?

Originally Posted by jackvance

First: set
Second: air but bluffing to have a set?

how often does a player who calls the first all in also call the second time anyway do you think?
If this is my standard line with a set, and you recognise that it is, do you ever call it with tptk?
Does the board offer any difference in my range?

btw, is your answer based on what you expect my post to try and discuss or what you think i have?

I put you on a set both times - unless/until I see you showdown TPWK or some other such hand using the same move.

Jumping ahead, I think you are promoting the idea of using this line as a stone cold bluff. But sets make money because many players with TPTK will call down much more often than they should in this situation. Sure you could be up against an opponent who is smart enough to lay it down, but will he fold more than 50% of the time? And once you have to show this down, every observant opponent will be aware of it.
I suppose you could have T9s or 67s and that would make this more of a semi-bluff, but there are plenty of better semi-bluff opportunities if you are just trying to advertise.

Well if I assume the first one is a set:

if you have a set the second time then your an idiot. (debatable)

the second flop doesn't have any draws you could be semi-bluff pushing


I think you're going to have to give a read here. At least tell me what I play like?

I think you're going to have to give a read here. At least tell me what I play like?

Your a standard ABC FTR'er who doesnt get150bbs of it all in against a solid multitabler with just tptk.

I put you on a set both times - unless/until I see you showdown TPWK or some other such hand using the same move.

So every time i take this line, once you have seen it, you know its a set? Good.

Jumping ahead, I think you are promoting the idea of using this line as a stone cold bluff

i wouldnt 'stone cold' bluff this but yes you know where im going. Why is it so wrong?

But sets make money because many players with TPTK will call down much more often than they should in this situation

How quickly do players at >100nl go broke against sets? Pretty quickly. How often do good multitabling tags go broke against a set. never/very infrequently. What happens then when we leave the stakes that mr.fish is going to call an all in with top pair? how can we adapt? In how many cases is a multitabling tag going to get it all in on the flop with tptk?

but will he fold more than 50% of the time?

There is so much talk of lagging it up at the moment as a strategy especilly at 100nl+ in here. Im looking for alternatives. If we assume we arent stupid enough to do this against the table donk or against an opponent who doesnt know our line/knows hwo to fold tp when it has us beat, how many times does opp fold tp here?

every observant opponent will be aware of it.

I dont intend to show it down, perhaps the biggest point to exploit here but yes. agreed.

If you get beyond the fish tank of 25nl and play improved stakes games (100nl maybe 200nl and 400nl i would guess) how much of a hand do you really need. Do you just not need to exploit the line? You all have after all recognised the set line but then qualified it by saying
1. Would Miffed be dumb enough to play it the same again?
2. Because Miffed has done it once you immediatly put him on air. In reality do you?

How often would you call if i did it 1/4 times you raised and hit the flop? Would i get you to call me with tptk eventually?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I think you're going to have to give a read here. At least tell me what I play like?

Your a standard ABC FTR'er who doesnt get150bbs of it all in against a solid multitabler with just tptk.

OK so I know you do this with air a percentage of the time.

I don't think I can tell which hand is which, or if they're both the same thing.

if you saw a set the first time i did it (if i show) or you saw a showdown all in and i have the set, would you ever consider stacking off with top pair then on a rainbow board (no oesd possibilities)?
Lets assume (for the minute) im incapable of making this bluff.

If you are just trying to make a move, its much cheaper to smooth call/raise the turn. Why do you need to make this move on this flop? Why not wait until you have at least a solid straight draw before making the same move? Is it specifically because your opponent won't be able to put you on a draw?

If so, and if you pick your opponent very carefully, then I can see that it would work more than 50% of the time. This could be espescially nice early in a session, because it makes it a lot more likely that you will get payed off from that opponent when you do catch 2-pair or a set. But once you show one of these down, I would make sure you had a real hand before doing it again.

As soon as I see you show one of these down, I am probably going to call next time. With the hand above, this is +EV for me if there is even a 25% chance your bluffing. And if there is any chance that you could have 2 pair here (maybe AT), then I've got 6 outs on the turn and 9 outs on the river even if you aren't bluffing. Though I wouldn't put a good opponent on 2-pair with those flops, there are similar flops that I might, such as AJ7 rainbow.

Originally Posted by Ebene

If you are just trying to make a move, its much cheaper to smooth call/raise the turn. Why do you need to make this move on this flop? Why not wait until you have at least a solid straight draw before making the same move? Is it specifically because your opponent won't be able to put you on a draw?

If so, and if you pick your opponent very carefully, then I can see that it would work more than 50% of the time. This could be espescially nice early in a session, because it makes it a lot more likely that you will get payed off from that opponent when you do catch 2-pair or a set. But once you show one of these down, I would make sure you had a real hand before doing it again.

As soon as I see you show one of these down, I am probably going to call next time. With the hand above, this is +EV for me if there is even a 25% chance your bluffing. And if there is any chance that you could have 2 pair here (maybe AT), then I've got 6 outs on the turn and 9 outs on the river even if you aren't bluffing. Though I wouldn't put a good opponent on 2-pair with those flops, there are similar flops that I might, such as AJ7 rainbow.

1. You have seen showdown, whats to make you suspect i dont have you well beat. Is it simply the fact i ran the same line as blatently as before
2. Is air a big consideration in whether you will call? i.e do you REALLY think i have air here enough to make a call at any point?

Lets ignore not showing down a monster, assume all ive done is show the best hand that was way ahead when the money went in.

the other player could have a very good hand himself such as a set or two pair when he is leading out with an ace on the board. you are risking too much of your stack for too little reward to make this move worth while. unless you are extremely selective as to which flops you chose to use this move, it is very risky. The villan could easily have A10 in the first example. In the second example, the move is safer but many people don't lay down AK in this situation either, even in higher stakes such as 200 nl. 100 nl you are risking even more because everyone calls with AK in this situation. Have a hand. Semi bluffing is good. Doing this with air is a bad idea.

And if you still decide to use this move, you will have to play your sets the same way in order for your move to be effective. Do you really want to waste your sets like this? It would be a waste if the opponent does fold AQ when you have a set.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

And if you still decide to use this move, you will have to play your sets the same way in order for your move to be effective. Do you really want to waste your sets like this? It would be a waste if the opponent does fold AQ when you have a set.

i hardly ever get folds from tp here. I love how air is instantly a *significant* part of my range.

that is true miffed. but then what if they then call your air with tp. the approach is a nice one but the variance will get very annoying. when they somehow fold to your set and then call you when you do it with air.

that is true miffed. but then what if they then call your air with tp. the approach is a nice one but the variance will get very annoying. when they somehow fold to your set and then call you when you do it with air.

I'm kinda lost I think.

Why on earth would I make either of those calls unless air (or something just as shit) is a significant part of your range here? If it wasn't, then I just fold the flop and these hands never happen. Therefore it has to be a significant part.

Yet whenever someone says "one hand is air" you say "I love how everyone puts me on air". Explain please Miffty!?

I think he is considering making this move w/ a pair, a backdoor flush, and a backdoor straight draw, so once you consider redraws he'd have effectively 6 outs.

I'm still not loving it because I think there are plenty of 8-12 out opportunities that would accomplish the same thing, but its better than air.

Why on earth would I make either of those calls unless air (or something just as shit) is a significant part of your range here? If it wasn't, then I just fold the flop and these hands never happen. Therefore it has to be a significant part.

At no point have i said air is part of my range here. Infact you have assumed that! My point is, if i keep playing my sets like this (and yes i have a set in both examples!) do you ever either
1. Call because im pissing you off and yet its so obvious.
2. Start to believe air IS part of my range when it isnt.

So if i had done this on empire (theoretically) would i ever have got calls because you dont believe me when you should? Its an odd question, even a bit daft? i admit, but on a number of occasions players at 100nl full ring have called in the second sitaution because they are like 'you cant be that dumb to do it again' or 'im fed up of this' or 'he has to be bluffing at SOME point'
In other words is there some reverse pyshcology bull here or not?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Why on earth would I make either of those calls unless air (or something just as shit) is a significant part of your range here? If it wasn't, then I just fold the flop and these hands never happen. Therefore it has to be a significant part.

At no point have i said air is part of my range here. Infact you have assumed that! My point is, if i keep playing my sets like this (and yes i have a set in both examples!) do you ever either
1. Call because im pissing you off and yet its so obvious.
2. Start to believe air IS part of my range when it isnt.

No. Unless I know (because I've seen) that air is a large part of your range here, these hands never exist when playing against me.

anybody else notice that in hand 2, pl3 has the As, and the flop has the As?

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

anybody else notice that in hand 2, pl3 has the As, and the flop has the As?

Well, I can't call the AI because I wouldn't wanna show down a suited pair of aces!

miffed this may be effective when you play against some types of players who get annoyed easily. But if you plan on always doing this with a set only, i think you are wasting the value of your sets. People will fold way too often for it to be it worthwhile.

I prefer repping sets on boards with at least two rags when I act before a good TAGG or any rock who's raised preflopby checking and then raising 3x whatever he bets. I'll follow through with a 2/3-34 sized bet on the turn if called. They'll usally fold on the flop, and even if they call on the flop with overpairs with AA-QQ or top pair with AK or AQ they'll generally wimp out on the turn when I fire again.

Both hands I put villain on a set.I muck both and wait for later to play back.If things deteriorate I leave table and find a new one.