Should I have seen this coming?

Hiya,

I think I got this wrong post-flop. But equally possible I got it wrong all along.

It's early in a Pacific Poker play money SNG (6 players, 1000 chips each).
Blinds 10/20.

UTG: Folds.
Me: (Kd 5d) Call.
CO: Call BTN: Call SB: Call

Flop: Jd 9s Td

Okay, so I've got a strong flush-draw with gut shot which I remember as being around 45% on the outs odds-chart I read here. Not sure if I'd play a pair of kings here, but if one adds those in it's perhaps 50%

SB: Check BB: Check
Me: Bet 60 (approx half-pot)
CO: Fold BTN: Call SB: Fold BB: Fold

Turn: Qc

I've made my straight, if my opponent hasn't made a straight I want them out before a king turns up on the board.

Me: Bet 439
BTN: Raise 878
Me: Raise 920 (All-in)
BTN: Call 900 (All-in)

Is the bet too big? Twice the pot. I don't really want to be called here.

Is it stupid to call the re-raise? I'd put him on a king, which means a split pot, if he's put me on the same he may be trying to scare me off a shared pot.

If he has got AK, which I really hadn't thought likely (he did nothing from the button pre-flop) then I still have the flush draw at 20% and the other three aces to tie.

River 5c.

He shows Ad Kc and wins.

Can't really avoid the result.

Why didn't you want to be called on the turn? You made your hand. You want to be called there.

Originally Posted by chardrian

Why didn't you want to be called on the turn?

Pattern mapper said he was up against nuts.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by chardrian

Why didn't you want to be called on the turn?

Pattern mapper said he was up against nuts.

Oh - in that case, he shoulda just folded. (Note the dripping sarcasm?)

Nicely played, I would go broke here too

Betting 440 into a 240 pot on the turn is a nice play?

1) Don't open limp
2) Don't play Kxs
3) Bet pot on turn, I have yet to find a spot where 2x pot is a good idea
4) Respect re-raises

Only idea I like is building the pot on the flop with your flush draw. However, I suspect your game is loose enough that this isn't necessary. If people will pay you off if a flush hits on the turn, don't bet the flop.

If you are going to playmoney, read all the stickies and follow starting hand requirements. Then if you post a hand you might get useful responses instead of a bunch of sarcastic responses (which is totally warranted).

Originally Posted by chardrian

Can't really avoid the result.

Why didn't you want to be called on the turn? You made your hand. You want to be called there.

Yeah. Paranoia. Stupidity. Take your pick.

A few times recently I've played straights like this too quietly and not got rid of those who are still hoping to make their straight. Especially irritating if they make a better one.
I think I over-compensated here though.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Betting 440 into a 240 pot on the turn is a nice play?

1) Don't open limp
2) Don't play Kxs
3) Bet pot on turn, I have yet to find a spot where 2x pot is a good idea
4) Respect re-raises

Only idea I like is building the pot on the flop with your flush draw. However, I suspect your game is loose enough that this isn't necessary. If people will pay you off if a flush hits on the turn, don't bet the flop.

If you are going to playmoney, read all the stickies and follow starting hand requirements. Then if you post a hand you might get useful responses instead of a bunch of sarcastic responses (which is totally warranted).

Look, I appreaciate the fact that you took the time to respond, even if the answer is a bit condesending.

The RTFM is a bit unwarranted though. I have indeed read the stickies, I've read the starting hand requirements, but I've been following those in FTR's starting hands chart. Kxs is the highest of those listed in the group 7 (?) list. It says play depending on...

Now, I thought that the conditions were right to make it worth a go and after I saw the flop I felt happy having put in 20 chips in to see it (I'm probably wrong, which is why this post is in the beginner's cirlce).

So point (2) I'll accept if you mean don't play Kxs IN THIS SORT OF SITUATION.

As for point (1) this contradicts what I read in the strategy section where the advice for the small pair (group 6 hands) is
"So, here is how I play these first five hands - I try to see the flop for cheap, which means limping in or calling small raises"

So if one limps for group 6, why not group 7? I mean again, I may be ignorant, but it's not a stupid conclusion to come to.

If you really believe points 1+2 then I'd be happy to hear your reasons.

Point (3): Thanks. Sounds like good advice.
Part of my betting strategy, though, is to try to judge what the bets mean on the table. For instance in a bragging-rights home game with some friends I made what I thought was a standard bet (3xBB) and they looked at me like I'd gone all-in.
My question is: surely if part of betting is to send a message to the other players, you want to adjust the size of the bet so they "get the message"?

Point (4): Thanks again. I have found that balance difficult.
I mean, it's worked so well for me to re-raise someone when I know they've got the same hand as me (for example, the five cards on the board) and watched them fold that I suspect others would try the same.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write. And a little sarcasm is small price for the odd gems of advice one gets here.

But I do feel it's a bit unfair to be mocked when I was trying to follow advice gleaned from this site... even if I followed it wrongly.

RTFM? - Read the fucking material?
I'm not familiar with this acronym

1) I said "don't open limp", not "don't limp". When you're getting started open limping will only cause problems. If you don't like your hand enough to raise, you should fold and save the chips. You limp the top half of Group 6 looking for a set (8:1 odds I believe).

This also applies to completeing the SB. Don't complete because there is lots of money in the pot, complete because you have a good hand. Playing OOP sucks. Folding in EP will save you chips.

2) Don't play Kxs is exactly what I meant. What kind of flop are you looking for that will help you out? If it's K high you're probably out-kicked. If it's a made flush you either won't get paid or your stack will be taken by Axs. The only solid flop you get is KKx where the x matches yours. But any hand can flop a boat this way. Kxs is a terrible hand and you should never play it. SnGs are about accumulating chips, you need to save them for when you double up.

I think that chart is for Limit, you have more opportunities to draw. In NoLimit, I don't play K9 either, and A9 is only good short-handed. I will limp with the other group 7 hands with 2-3 limpers in front, although I almost never get paid off by them.

Your quote applies to the top half of group 6, Ks is in the middle of group 7. Comparing the two is like comparing A5s or 22 to JT. They are completely different.

3) If you bet 2x the pot you are only getting called by someone who beats you. If you bet 1x the pot, the same hands will call (and maybe a couple you beat), and you are saving chips. Think about the guy who goes all-in 3-4 times to "steal the pot". The fifth time he tries he gets called by KK/AA and looses his stack. Over-betting only works if no one has you beat.

Originally Posted by I

If you are going to playmoney, read all the stickies and follow starting hand requirements. Then if you post a hand you might get useful responses instead of a bunch of sarcastic responses (which is totally warranted).

condescending (I don't see the mockery)? You got no useful advice from the first several posts. I (possibly wrongly) assumed this is because they have all been around for much longer than me and get sick of seeing posts like yours (not a personal attack, just a truthful statement). They are far better than you or me. However, there are people like me who regurgitate their knowledge back towards people like you in a cycle. I have some posts where the play is so terrible that I felt bad for wasting other people's time by reading it, let alone responding. You want them offering useful advice, not me. I was offering what I know so that when you have a difficult decision you get advice from the best players.

Some people won't take any playmoney post seriously.

Bookmark this post and come back and look at your play in 3 months, you'll be shocked you made such a play.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

RTFM? - Read the fucking material?
I'm not familiar with this acronym

Manual, actually. But by extension: asking questions to which one can easily find the answers.

1) I said "don't open limp", not "don't limp".

Okay. Sorry, didn't understand.
Although why am I worse off calling after UTG folds rather than UTG limping in?

2) Don't play Kxs is exactly what I meant. What kind of flop are you looking for that will help you out? If it's K high you're probably out-kicked. If it's a made flush you either won't get paid or your stack will be taken by Axs.

Well, what I've managed to get in the past is a pair of kings and if I believe no-one else has a king I've gone for it.
Obviously this was an example of me not having a clue what the person had.

I think that chart is for Limit,

Nope. Says no limit in the title. It's an adaption, as I understand it, of S&M which I think is Limit.

Your quote applies to the top half of group 6, Ks is in the middle of group 7. Comparing the two is like comparing A5s or 22 to JT. They are completely different.

No argument there. But it was I just can't see why I'd play group 7 (if I play it) more aggressively than these (which are limped).

3) If you bet 2x the pot you are only getting called by someone who beats you. If you bet 1x the pot, the same hands will call (and maybe a couple you beat), and you are saving chips. Think about the guy who goes all-in 3-4 times to "steal the pot". The fifth time he tries he gets called by KK/AA and looses his stack. Over-betting only works if no one has you beat.

In my defence this wasn't intended to steal but to get people to fold (as I said above, a mistake, I just had visions of a king coming up and someone on Ax taking the pot).
But, for an example, I just busted out of one where I had trips and lost because my pot-sized bet was called on flop and turn by someone who was hoping for (and got) two running cards and made a straight.

He was probably making bad decisions, but I wonder if a large flop bet would have won that pot.

condescending (I don't see the mockery)? You got no useful advice from the first several posts.

Well, maybe "mockery" is the wrong word. But I really don't believe my post warrants sarcasm.
Of course if people are sick of reading posts like mine they should, in fairness, avoid beginner's forums. As you rightly say, you are here to pass on the info, and perhaps one day when you've got sick of it I'll be in your shoes.

Some people won't take any playmoney post seriously.

That's quite clear. I can understand why too.
It's a problem for me as I'm looking to switch to micro-limits, which seem to get exactly the same response from some.

Bookmark this post and come back and look at your play in 3 months, you'll be shocked you made such a play.

Well, am already shocked about the overbet and the calling of the re-raise.
I'll check back and see how I feel about the rest.

But thanks again for taking the time (twice) to respond. It's appreciated.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

Although why am I worse off calling after UTG folds rather than UTG limping in?

I really don't have a good answer right now. I have an idea, but I don't want to ramble too much.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

No argument there. But it was I just can't see why I'd play group 7 (if I play it) more aggressively than these (which are limped).

I wouldn't encourage playing group 7 aggressive. My point was you don't want to get aggressive with those hands, so folding is a good idea. When you limp after other people, there is more money in the pot, and more people seeing the flop (i.e. more chances someone likes their hand). If you open limp, there is a chance everyone else folds, giving you bad odds. If you are going to open raise your great hands, you also want to open raise your good hands to mask their value (deception). This relates to the above post.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

Well, what I've managed to get in the past is a pair of kings and if I believe no-one else has a king I've gone for it.

If this is the case you don't even need the K, because you can make them fold with your betting. If you're last to act and everyone checks to you, you can toss out a bet. Often they fold. If you get re-raised and have K, bad kicker you have a tougher decision. If you have nothing it's easier to let it go.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

But, for an example, I just busted out of one where I had trips and lost because my pot-sized bet was called on flop and turn by someone who was hoping for (and got) two running cards and made a straight.

He was probably making bad decisions, but I wonder if a large flop bet would have won that pot.

This is exactly the problem with play money (don't get me wrong, there are things you can learn: patience, etc.). You may end up learning bad habits. You want someone to chase the straight, but you want it to be unprofitable for them. Long term it's more money in your pocket, it took me awhile to truly accept this idea.

{EDIT}
Good luck BTW. But, if you keep reading this site and studying your game you won't need it.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

...I really don't believe my post warrants sarcasm...

Standard FTR fare. Get used to it.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Bookmark this post and come back and look at your play in 3 months, you'll be shocked you made such a play.

1 Month.

Pants.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

1 Month.

Haha, nice.

I'm finishing up Sklansky's Holdem for Advanced Players (not that I'm advanced). While that hands chart is for NL, group 9 is most definitely a carry over from his limit chart.

How's the play at the 4c tables? Similar to playmoney? Good to see you're moving up.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Haha, nice.

I'm finishing up Sklansky's Holdem for Advanced Players (not that I'm advanced). While that hands chart is for NL, group 9 is most definitely a carry over from his limit chart.

How's the play at the 4c tables? Similar to playmoney? Good to see you're moving up.

I've been going through HOH, which has given me some stuff (probably too much at my level) to think about.

The play at the 4c tables is abysmal, which worries me because I'm just about breaking even. (Although since my 15-otm-in-a-row debacle I've been ITM almost 50%). Hit an all-time high today of $1.13.

I'm bubbling out in 4th far too often. Probably means I'm playing too conservatively; I don' t know.

I'm now opening very cautiously (most of the time9. Basically both cards must be A,K,Q or J or else it has to be a PP, I'll make an exception for suited connectors as BTN or CO.
This pretty much continues as long as there are >4 people at the table. Then I'll start playing KT, AT, A9 until we lose someone and then go nuts

It's working okay for now and I think I've improved my play with these hands quite a bit. Big problem, according to my notes, is that I hang on to two-pair too often and certainly against those on a straight draw.

Don't really feel that I've conquered the 4c level yet; although I'd love to be able to move up to the next level just because at 0.10+0.01 the fee would be a more reasonable 10%...

So playing tight gets you into the last 4-6 before the blinds become an issue?

50% ITM after a 15 OTM downswing is really good. If you're ROI sucks it's probably because of the rake. Cut the buy-in down to 0.4c in your records and see what your ROI should be.

Originally Posted by Anosmic

I'm bubbling out in 4th far too often. Probably means I'm playing too conservatively; I don' t know.

Bubbling, like getting eaten by the blinds, or bubbling by loosing a coinflip (or better or worse)? If you're getting eaten by the blinds, too conservative. If you're ending up in situations where you're pushing with questionable hands and loosing... I have the same problem at $5.50, so we just have more to learn.

Did you depoit a dollar, or finish ITM in a freeroll? Good luck starting from scratch.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

So playing tight gets you into the last 4-6 before the blinds become an issue?

Yup. You could click "sit out" and come back after 20 mins and be in the last 5. Though I've never tried it

50% ITM after a 15 OTM downswing is really good. If you're ROI sucks it's probably because of the rake. Cut the buy-in down to 0.4c in your records and see what your ROI should be.

Well, over 50 games my ROI is 6%, it's 8% if you discount the rake and 7% if the rake were halved (i.e. a 10% rake).
Don't know how significant that is.

Bubbling, like getting eaten by the blinds, or bubbling by loosing a coinflip (or better or worse)? If you're getting eaten by the blinds, too conservative. If you're ending up in situations where you're pushing with questionable hands and loosing... I have the same problem at $5.50, so we just have more to learn.

Usually if I've not hit any hands, or the hands have not paid off I've probably got around my starting stack (+/- 20%) and I usually end up making a move which either gets me in or busts me out.
A few bad decisions in there, some were right and got sucked out (by a bigger stack who could afford to take the risk).

Did you depoit a dollar, or finish ITM in a freeroll? Good luck starting from scratch.

I played 69 of their 0+0 SNGs which have a $0.10 prize pool. They're limit poker, so it was an adjusment. I played enough to get my account up to 75c (then played a few more to make it 88) which I thought was enough of a BR for the 4c tables.
I really don't want to go back and do that again

Originally Posted by Anosmic

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Bookmark this post and come back and look at your play in 3 months, you'll be shocked you made such a play.

1 Month.

Pants.

lol.

Realising your mistakes and admitting them is the first step to growing.

God I'm zen.