Small PPs in EP, etc

Seems I can't post converted hands until I have a certain number of posts. Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'm going to keep using this thread to post more hands until I get clear of the image-posting restriction.

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I know "How to Play Pocket Pairs" is a favorite topic in BC. I searched BC and read through Renton's 169-hand Guide but didn't see anything that answered my question.

My "game", as it is developing, includes these 2 characteristics: I hate playing OOP and I hate open limping. When I am considering whether or not to play a hand, these thoughts are in the forefront: "Do I have position and, if so, how much should I bet/raise?" If I'm in EP, I almost never play anything other than AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK and I'm always raising and often reraising with all those. If I'm in MP, I'm more likely to bet/call with 77-TT. From CO and BTN, I might bet with anything, depending on the situation.

ANYWAY... what to do with smaller PPs in earlier position? From UTG-UTG+1, recently I'm inclined to toss 22-33 and raise with anything else. Here's why:

1) I hate open limping. If anyone is paying any attention at all, if I limp from EP, it's an obvious smaller PP. (At this point in my "game", unless the table is super tight, I don't play any SCs etc in EP.)

2) If these hands hit on the flop, I want to have some money in the pot so I get paid off. I see already that when my PPs hit, they are my big money winners. Seems it's worth a few folded PF bets to get paid off when they do hit.

I know I'm nowhere near as good as I think I am. So just how ungood is my thinking here?

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Since this is my first post in BC, I'll go ahead and post a hand. HH at bottom.

UTG is 34/23/38 after 26 hands and UTG+1 is 53/2/30 after 52 hands.

PF - Healthy bet was to hopefully get position and hope one of the villains will call.

Flop - I'm still learning to do the range thing, but for now... They both limped and called PF. I put them on small to mid PP, 2 barely coordinated big cards, or some sort of suited crap. They both checked the flop. Unless one of them flopped the nut straight (or hit their set) and is being coy here, I have no reason to think my either of them are strong.

Turn - They are still c/c-ing. Unless one of them is trying to be sneaky (say set turning into boat on turn - maybe 10% chance of that), I think one of them is chasing a straight and one is hoping their 88 is holding up. And now I have a nice nut FD.

River - Sweet. Only thing I'm worried about now is the boat. The fact that UTG is STILL checking makes the boat seem even less likely. Now what?

How did I do? Especially with bet sizes.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight | fold when you know you're beat
54/8/39 over 14 hands

Stacks:
UTG $9.38
UTG+1 $8.66
Hero $10
MP2 $4.01
CO $18.33
BTN $20.82
SB $9.63
BB $1.55

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 8 players) Hero is MP1 Ks As
UTG calls $0.05, UTG+1 calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.23, 5 folds, UTG calls $0.18, UTG+1 calls $0.18

Flop: 6c 4h 5s ($0.76, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.50, UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50

Turn: 4s ($2.26, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds

River: 7s ($4.26, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2 ...

EDIT: Got rid of player names in HH.

Do you have any postflop reads on either, and what does your 3rd number mean ?(UTG is 34/23/38 <-)

Reads - Nothing other than it appears they play a lot of hands. UTG had potential to be LAGGy.

VPIP/PF/AFq - sorry about that.

Any simple way to get player names out of the raw HH?

Welcome to FTR.
Don't worry about taking the names out, with just a few more posts you'll be able to use the hand converter and paste 'em in without names, so no biggie.

You should have the most reads on people who play alot of hands, you have the potential to make a lot of money from both players. Before you start throwing money in a pot you should be thinking about what you're doing and why.

I'm concerned because this is a very coordinated flop. After we cbet, UTG+1 can easily have 44-TT,98,97,87,86,85,84,76,75,74,73,65,64,54 in his range. .I'm confused about UTG limping, I'm thinking he may limped with a PP and is slowplaying a set.

On the turn, I'm thinking I check behind. I doubt you're getting the folds you need to make this a successful semibluff. I'm also worried about getting check-raised with some slowplayed hand.

River gives you a flush. You're ahead of slowplayed straights, but I'm still concerned about fullhouses on the river. 77-44 could all be possible here. I'm not sure what the correct action would be here.

Your preflop gameplan sounds solid - play tight as hell in EP, loose as hell in LP. I play 6max and can't comment on the details of what a good opening range UTG is, etc, but I think you have the right general idea.

Your postflop play might need more work however. Both your opponents in this hand are loose, and vs loose players you should be less inclined to cbet bluff, especially multiway. Also note the board texture - the board is coordinated, which makes it even less good of a spot to cbet. Because you very seldom get them both to fold here, checking behind seems best.

As played on the turn... I'd check behind here because we have so little fold equity. You also risk being check-raised off your hand, based on your read on UTG.

I can see I need a LOT more practice with ranges and EV. Is there one comprehensive resource to get started on these topics?

All I can go by for now is what I've been "taught". I know there are exceptions, but I'm inclined to keep firing if I'm not getting resistance. I can see now that I shouldn't have been so quick to fire on the turn. I need to learn to let hands go when they go -EV. OTOH, at this level (5NL) it's so easy to convince oneself that villain is weak... because so often they are. I know that is a mistake.

Thanks for the comments.

Here's another hand. Villain is 13/6 over 97 hands:

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight | fold when you know you're beat

Stacks:
UTG $5
UTG+1 $8.18
MP1 $4.67
MP2 $5.70
Hero $5.10
CO $1.98
BTN $6.01
SB $5.36
BB $2.12

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 9 players) Hero is MP3 Kc Kd
UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.28, CO calls $0.28, 3 folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds

Flop: Qs 6h 2s ($0.73, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, CO calls $0.45

Turn: Ad ($1.63, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

River: 2d ($1.73, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.55, Hero raises to $1.10, CO calls $0.55
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Anyway to get off this hand? I'm sure there is.

I'm OK with my play until turn (please correct me if I'm wrong). I had to call the turn, no? On the river, no way I'm taking a shot on the river. I think my re-raise was Donk all the way. I convinced myself villain might be bluffing.

So I'm guessing c/f was the EV move in this situation? After villain's bet on the river, I would have to put him on Ax or slowplaying a set. Most likely the Ax.

OK, I was flailing pretty much. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by azalehabibi

Turn: Ad ($1.63, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

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Anyway to get off this hand? I'm sure there is.

I'm OK with my play until turn (please correct me if I'm wrong). I had to call the turn, no?

So I'm guessing c/f was the EV move in this situation?

Okay..You raised a quite a bit preflop and followed up with a nice cbet in position with an overpair to the board. If he's flatting both of these is an ace really in much of his range? Why the hell would c/f be the highest EV move on the turn. He min bet into a large pot. Unless he turned two pair, the ace is a pretty irrelevant card. If he was going to turn two pair why does it matter if it was an ace. A really good player would never min bet the turn with anything here. It accomplishes nothing. So a nice little fish that you're playing against decides to min-bet the turn because you checked. Barrel the turn because the ace doesn't hit much of his calling range on the flop. Reevaluate on the river if he flats again.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight | fold when you know you're beat

Stacks:
UTG $6.74
UTG+1 $5
MP1 $3.15
MP2 $4.73
CO $3.14
BTN $2.23
Hero $5.26
BB $12.16

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 8 players) Hero is SB Ah Qc
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, 2 folds, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.15, CO calls $0.15

Flop: Ac 8s 2s ($0.65, 3 players)
Hero bets $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40, CO folds

Turn: 5c ($1.45, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, UTG+1 calls $0.90

River: 6h ($3.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.60

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I've got 320 hands with UTG+1 villain, who is 12/8. They don't have a habit of limping EP.

I believe my PF bet was too low. OOP with w/2 limpers? Should have been twice what I bet. So I learn next to nothing by them calling.

When the flop comes, I still have little idea what villains ranges are. For UTG+1 villain, I was thinking 22-88, Ax, 2 big cards, and that TJs that looked to pretty to fold. I'm not afraid of Ax unless they pair kicker. Always the possibility of set. Should probably give more weight to PPs then I do.

I was thinking a 2/3 pot bet would let me narrow down their ranges. I should have been thinking more about isolating. I can't check here, can I? I'm thinking I should have bet the pot here. As it turns out, the 2/3 bet was enough for CO to fold.

Nothing super scary on the turn. I am starting to get a tiny bit nervous about the set. Still not sure how I can just check at this point. So I bet 2/3 again.

Now I'm nervous. Villain seems like a somewhat solid player. I wouldn't expect them to chase something and it's not like there's anything to chase. The only hands they might have that I beat would an A w/unpaired kicker (except for AK) or PP that didn't make a set. I definitely should have been checking here, if not the turn also.

These are my uninformed thoughts. Yours?

KK Hand.
PF i think he may flat - AK,AQ,AJs,ATs,JJ,TT,KQs,KJs,QJs,JTs In a raised pot he can't profitably sethunt, though he may try anyways.

Flop is standard, might bet a bit more on the flop. AcKc,AQ,AcJc,AcTc,JJ,TT,KQs,QJs,JcTc I'm believe will call.

Turn does help a good portion of his range, so I think it's fine to slowdown here, I easily call the turn bet though...It's kind of rediculous.

River, you check, he bets smallish.
( Amount to Call/Total pot) = ( 0.55 / 2.83 ) = 19.4% needed equity to call
So if you believe he's bluffing some of the time should be a pretty easy call, why bluff his bluff when you have a perfectly good showdown hand?

AQ hand.
Yes more pf! 4xbb+1bb/limper (3xbb+1 on the button), maybe more OOP.

I worry as well about tighter players. I might check the turn for pot control and to keep worse more Ax in his range...

Just so you know, a valuebet is when you have >50% equity vs his continuing range, consider this whenever you bet.

Glad to see you putting more thought in your posted hands though!

You should still be able to use the converter, just edit out the FTR URL until you have enough posts.

Here are some good various article that deal with ranges, maybe you'll find some of them useful (Searching: Spoonitnow and Ranges = Good results)

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...tc-161721.html

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ge-177508.html

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ad-177296.html

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

Thanks lots for all the feedback! This stuff is invaluable when I'm playing. Not that I use any of it specifically but it helps me think in a more correct (less sucky) fashion. I know I have miles and miles to go before I sleep but I do feel like I'm starting to grok the difference between trying to guess what villain is holding and actually deciding what I believe his range is... then act accordingly. Not that I'm anywhere near being able to do this, but thinking this way makes the game SO much more interesting... riveting even.

Here's another hand that caused a bit of confusion. Again with the bet sizing. Villain is 12/7/af5 over 112 hands.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight | fold when you know you're beat

Stacks:
UTG $5.28
UTG+1 $7.15
MP1 $2.04
MP2 $9.28
CO $1.77
BTN $5.89
SB $5
Hero $8.67

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 8 players) Hero is BB Jc Jd
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.24, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.19, MP1 folds

Flop: 6h 8c 7c ($0.55, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.60, CO calls $0.45

Turn: 3d ($1.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.75.........

PF - Villain puts in a reasonable bet after one limp. I think her range is 22+, AT-AA, Axs, K9-KK, QT-QQ, J9-JT, with various connectors, suited and otherwise. Really she could be stealing blinds with anything. Looking back, I believe I should have 3bet here to narrow her range. I'm going to be OOP after flop and as played, I know next to nothing about her hand.

Flop - So far her range hasn't changed. I check. Villain puts in a tiny bet. At this point I STILL haven't ruled out any of her range. So I 3bet and she calls. This should rule out 22-44 and most of the broadway dreck, leaving her with QQ-AA, AK, AQ, A6-A8s, 55-TT, several middle combos that would give her a made straight, straight draw, or FD. Still haven't ruled out a heck of a lot. And I didn't 3bet enough to make drawing to a flush incorrect.

Turn - Seems obvious but I'm probably wrong. Pot odds demand that I call if she pushes. There might be a tiny bit of FE, but not much... unless she has a busted FD.

Again, your thoughts?

In the heat of the moment, I tend to lose all ability to figure out the proper bet size. I think if I keep doing this... getting feedback... it will become more natural.

In my initial post in this thread, I asked about playing small PPs in EP. Anyone want to take a crack at that? Here is a snip of what's up in the initial post:

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ANYWAY... what to do with smaller PPs in earlier position? From UTG-UTG+1, recently I'm inclined to toss 22-33 and raise with anything else. Here's why:

1) I hate open limping. If anyone is paying any attention at all, if I limp from EP, it's an obvious smaller PP. (At this point in my "game", unless the table is super tight, I don't play any SCs etc in EP.)

2) If these hands hit on the flop, I want to have some money in the pot so I get paid off. I see already that when my PPs hit, they are my big money winners. Seems it's worth a few folded PF bets to get paid off when they do hit.
--------------------end snip

I'm afraid putting these raises in may be a leak. How would I go about figuring out if putting in a small raise in EP w/small PPs is EV+ or EV-?

Sorry for being a pest about this, but I haven't found anything that addresses this situation specifically.

If you 3bet, what range will she be calling with? How will you play against this range postflop?
What kind of hands does she throw out a 3bb bet? She seriously going to bet weakly with AA?
As played you checkraised, what hands does she 3bet/call/fold with? How do you think you should play against her continuing range?

Low PP's kinda suck EP. I'll raise 22-66 if I think I may have some fold equity, though I probably won't if there are wide 3bettors on the table. Postflop you're OOP and unless you hit a set, they don't play so well.

Using whatever tracking program you use. Try filtering for EP and for whatever PP's you want, and see how much money you've won/lost. Remember you need a good sized sample to get a good idea if what you're doing is working or not. (Except in extreme cases)

KK hand - all fine imo up until the river. your min c/R is confusing. What were you trying to accomplish with that?

AQ - If the villain's stats were 60/2 then going for 3 streets of value would be great. Our villain here is 12/8 which is quite nitty, and you're seldom getting 3 streets of value out of a worse hand. [edited, sorry i should stop posting really late at night]. Villain is a nit, and he's UTG+1. So try to think of a good range based on this info.

JJ - Your opening [edit: iso-raising... god how tired was i when i posted this crap] range for villain is way off. 88+,ATs+,KJs+,AQo+ is about 6.8% according to stove. [this is based on the assumption that villian is bad and is not positionally aware, which is a fair assumption a lot of the time.] Think of how to maximize vs this range. What portion of his range continues to your flop c/R? Much of his range is overpairs, which we'll assume for now which are all continuing. 88 is a possibility for a set, and maybe 77 or 66 if this is a type who plays more pairs than broadways. We'll assume also that unsuited broadways like AQo are folding. AcKc, AcQc, KcQc, AcJc would be hands that certainly continue, and we're flipping vs those. Overpairs that we're ahead of, TT and 99, actually have decent equity vs us because of their straight draws. So what hands are you getting value out of by c/R?

3-betting PF depends on your opponent's tendencies - what's their calling range? Would they certainly 4-bet KK+? A wider opening range would make JJ an easier 3-bet imo, but in this case it really depends.

Keep in mind people's ranges change based on their position. I think CO's actual range is likely to be somewhere between OP's and Eugmac's given ranges

Also, start some new threads for your hands...This is one is really getting cluttered.

Originally Posted by JR9477

Keep in mind people's ranges change based on their position. I think CO's actual range is likely to be somewhere between OP's and Eugmac's given ranges

Also, start some new threads for your hands...This is one is really getting cluttered.

Meh, sorry for some reason I thought villain was MP here. Anyway this also depends greatly on whether or not villian is positionally aware or not. Many are not at all. But let's assume he does isolate with a wider range than his average PFR range I quoted earlier - throw in ATo+, A8s+, KJo+, 66+, suited broadways... Still doesn't change the fact that when we c/R this type of nitty player, he's only continuing with a range that's quite a bit ahead of ours. Also note that we're dealing with a shortstack. A nitty shortstack is going to tend to have more hands like KJs in their range than T9s, do you see?

OP, why are you talking about having fold equity vs a FD? You talk as if you want only better hands to call, and worse hands to fold. I have a feeling you're making a common mistake in your thinking which leads you to bet in order to "see where you're at."

also, as JR said, put hands in separate threads so they can get individual attention. as it stands, the thread title is very misleading, as we haven't had all that much discussion here about small PP hands.