small pp's, oop - help!

I've recently begun opening all pairs for (at least) a standard raise. For me, that's about 3 - 3.5 x BB. During the last 2k hands, I had a run where I lost nearly every time with pp's, and got set under set twice. I'm having trouble especially from EP.

Problems
1. If I limp/call small pp's (77 and worse), they lose deception since I never play another hand this way. Fish probably won't notice, but it would be a leak at higher levels.
2. If I see the flop and don't hit a set, I'm pretty much done with the hand. Doing this for 3 x BB's is tough on the br. Do you open them light?
3. When opening small pp's from EP, calling rr's is tough, even if I suspect 20/21 hands instead of premium pairs. Often the implied odds aren't there (short stacked players abound at microstakes) to cover the 7.5 to 1 against odds of flopping the set.

I don't like betting. I REALLY don't like limping. I HATE folding. Help please.

I would keep up "basic strategy" concerning low pocket pairs for donkstakes:

1. Limp preflop: you get in cheap with no downside; no one is paying attention I promise you.
2. Fold to raises, unless you are pretty certain your opponent is going to get agressive (i.e.he has an overpair or he's a donk who wants to shove top pair good kicker)
3. No set no bet. Otherwise take it all.

Do not open your pps. At higher levels this is vital. But you're not at a high stakes table. Play YOUR table, worry about the harder ones after you actually move up.

Do not play pps against short stacks. PP's are similar to SC's: they're expensive (over time) but when they get there, they can make a big score. If there's no stack to take, then they're really terrible.

No set / no bet. If you think a bluff will work, as always, go for it. However.. remember that v. lowstakes calling stations, bluffs rarely work. In 3-handed or bigger hands, they are even worse. HU in position after a check, maybe.

Originally Posted by bigslikk

I would keep up "basic strategy" concerning low pocket pairs for donkstakes:

1. Limp preflop: you get in cheap with no downside; no one is paying attention I promise you.
2. Fold to raises, unless you are pretty certain your opponent is going to get agressive (i.e.he has an overpair or he's a donk who wants to shove top pair good kicker)
3. No set no bet. Otherwise take it all.

Do not open your pps. At higher levels this is vital. But you're not at a high stakes table. Play YOUR table, worry about the harder ones after you actually move up.

Do not play pps against short stacks. PP's are similar to SC's: they're expensive (over time) but when they get there, they can make a big score. If there's no stack to take, then they're really terrible.

No set / no bet. If you think a bluff will work, as always, go for it. However.. remember that v. lowstakes calling stations, bluffs rarely work. In 3-handed or bigger hands, they are even worse. HU in position after a check, maybe.

What level is "higher"? 100NL?
I think limping is fine up to 50NL but i haven't played 100NL so i cannot comment correctly on that point.

Just stick to the 10x rule. If he has 10x his raise behind, call. If not then you don't have the odds. I especially like PP in multi way pots when you flop a set because you're more likely to get paid :P

As for set over set, it's tough but getting all your money in with a set is never bad at low limits. As limits get higher you can start asking yourself "What would they re-raise me with on such a dry board?" and if your read/notes confirm your hidden suspicion i think folding is ok. Still getting it all in with a set is fine too :P

Clar

if you are US based then you eed to be raising them all at 100nl, in euro games you can still limp at 1/2nl and get paid, although raising is better

At a loose table, Raise with them OOP. Loose players are going to call Raises just as often as they call Limps, and the Raise will build the pot for you when you hit your set. For every player that folds, you get twice as much money from every player who calls, you limit the "donk" factor as much as possible and if the button tries to steal you can check-raise him.

In a Limped in multi-way pot, No Set no Bet is a good rule of thumb, but if you Raise with them OOP and get HU, C-Betting is non-negotiable unless the opponent is short stacked or the board is textured. You have a made hand, your opponent most likely didn't hit the flop, and even if he did, he most likely didn't hit a part of the flop he wanted to, so take advantage of the math and try to take the pot down right then and there. If the opponent floats you and a brick hits, Double Barrel for the same reasons you Double Barrel with AK on a missed flop, the range of hands that can actually call you here are extremely low.

Personally, I think you always want to Raise with PP, because you give yourself a chance to win the pot right then and there, or if the table folds to the blinds, you give yourself a chance to gain position. You cover up your hand, you give your hand credence for a C-Bet and a Double Barrel, and when you do hit your set it's easier to extract their chips. Even if you only hit fourth street or fifth street with your aggressiveness, you're still giving yourself another 2% chance of hitting your set for each street and taking them off Ace high or the draw.

If you raise and your opponent re-raises you, you can fold and no one will blame you, but calling here is also a good idea, because if you hit your set, you are stacking them. If you're bold, or you think your opponent's are skittish, you can even push and try to either steal the re-raise, coin flip against AK, get them to fold a better PP or get 4/1. Only one of those situations is really bad for you, albeit really, really bad for you.

If you're in the blinds against the button with PP, raise or re-raise them, chances are their hand is garbage and no one expects to be re-raised by deuces. This has become my standard line for PP and 21 against the button, and in shallow stack poker I'll even start doing it in position instead of bleeding chips by hunting for sets or re-raising/crying calling with Ace little after the flop.

Don't be afraid to check-raise with PP either, PP have a lot more value in them than set hunting. Even if you do limp with PP, don't be afraid to push it all in after some one raises behind you, it will either scare the shit out of people or stack them more often than it will stack you. The math is always in your favor with PP both pre and post flop, so be a bully and take them to school.

Edit: "Stop and Go" is also a standard option.

Originally Posted by breathweapon

In a Limped in multi-way pot, No Set no Bet is a good rule of thumb, but if you Raise with them OOP and get HU, C-Betting is non-negotiable unless the opponent is short stacked or the board is textured. You have a made hand, your opponent most likely didn't hit the flop, and even if he did, he most likely didn't hit a part of the flop he wanted to, so take advantage of the math and try to take the pot down right then and there. If the opponent floats you and a brick hits, Double Barrel for the same reasons you Double Barrel with AK on a missed flop, the range of hands that can actually call you here are extremely low.

My typical line for any pair on the flop is to c-bet against one over card, check to 2 overs or more. I've just lost too many hands to A9s with 66 when a J 9 5 flop hit. At my stakes ($.05/.1), they won't fold a pair to a c-bet. That's groovy 'cuz they almost always pay off a set, too. :P

Yeah, I can totally see that, but you may want to try opening up with them a little bit more at those stakes just to see what happens. You can join a SitNGo on the cheap and practice how you play your PPs to see whether or not it works for you. I swear by the PP Double Barrel, but then against I swear by any Double Barrel, so take it with a grain of salt.

You will be amazed at the number of people who are willing to get stacked off of a turned set, it's sick.

I always had the same problem, and I found over time that the best of three difficult choices was to raise