So I'm a rock. Now what?

I had an old man at Foxwoods who could barely see through his glasses describe me as a rock yesterday. I'm not sure he is wrong.

Except for from the blinds, I really only play strong starting hands, raising in the usual fashion. I don't bluff at many pots. If I think a play is too risky, I get out.

For the most part, I think this is just solid poker. But my style may also be the way it is because I fear losing a lot of money.

My friend, who also describes me as a rock, says he admires my patience. But he says he could never play that way, because when he wins he wants to win big.

So far, I see a lot of loose players who buy in many times and never seem to recoup their losses. In live play, I seem to be able to buy in once or twice and build that into a profit. When I am beat by someone, it is usually a bad beat or a suck out.

Then I read Super System and am utterly amazed that someone can play that aggressively and make money doing it. I understand how it could work, I just don't think I am yet skilled enough at post-flop play, reading opponents, or bluffing to make that my style. Right now, I see someone who plays like that as the type of player who will pay off my big hands when I hit them ... or suck out with a draw.

So is there anything wrong with being a rock? What am I missing out on?

What can I do to change my play to make being this tight more profitable? I imagine the answer to this is to bluff more, but maybe there is something else I can do.

My best current idea is to just change tables multiple times during a session. That way, it will take each table longer to figure out how tight I am. Hopefully, I can score some big hands before they figure it out.

Any suggestions would be helpful. Especially information about other players who were rocks and grew into something else.

I might also mention that I've been playing since the end of last summer.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Zangief

When I am beat by someone, it is usually a bad beat or a suck out.

This is the same thing, no?

When I first started playing the game for real, I started out being a rock. I consider 'rock' another word for weak/tight.

The best alternative to rock is tight/aggressive, this is a great style of play. You keep your starting hand choice limited, like you do now, then when you do pick up a hand, you play real loose on it. This is what it seems to me like you are lacking, the psot flop aggression etc.

NLHE is about guts, you can't sit and wait for the nuts, sometimes you have to go in on those coinflips.

Just work on your post-flop play, get your aggression levels up, and you will change from rock to tight/aggressive or solid soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I played much like you did when I started playing NLHE...and guess what...I was LOSING.

Ive said it once and I'll say it again. camping out waiting on golden starting hands is a BAD way to approach the game

The best players in the world (Daniel Negreanu, Gus Hansen etc) aren't afraid to raise pre flop with J/9s or call bets with 4/6os because they are masters at post flop play and excellent at reading weakness in their opponents.

You baffle me at times, Rippy. I know the tight style is never going to work for you, but you slag it as if it has never and will never work for anyone. There's a lot of great cash game and tournament players who would beg to differ. To be an effective tight player you still have to be willing to mix in deception and do some gear-changing - strictly waiting on top ten hands will mean you never get a scrap of action. You can't just be a rock and make money (or at least, you'll barely be profitable, and it will take a long time to make that profit). On the other hand, you can teach someone to be a pretty good tight player even if they have no real feel for the game; it takes a special kind of person with some natural in-born skills to play loose/aggressive and win.

I will also say this: it may be that a lot of tight players are rocks who show a net loss (though probably a miniscule one), but I guarantee you there is a much larger percentage of loose players losing at poker. The guys who push all-in at the drop of a hat, go on tilt periodically - these guys with ZERO discipline, ZERO patience, and usually no instincts to boot - these guys do a lot of losing, and they lose big when they lose. You are a rare bird indeed.

It's also a truism that loose/aggressive plays better in tournaments than cash games, and at small tables more so than big ones. So it's also about where a player is comfortable. I play a lot of full ring pot limit and no limit, and let me tell you, calling all day with crap hands and betting madly on bottom pair will get you broke fast. Particularly once people figure out you're doing it.

In my book the easiest style to start making a profit with is tight/aggressive. Play mostly premium hands, mixing in so-so hands when you have position... once the flop comes down, be aggressive. Be loose. Bluff more. Work on your post-flop play in that arena, and it will make you a better loose player if you later decide that suits you.

{This post has been removed}

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

Like I said...any fool can pump all in with rockets or cowboys but the real poker players adapt to different sitations and put the hammer down when they smell weakness.

This guy needs to learn to study the BOARD and step outside the box a little or he will only get pegged as a camper and when he does throw a bet out ...everybody will run like wildfire

That much I can completely agree with.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

The best players in the world (Daniel Negreanu, Gus Hansen etc) aren't afraid to raise pre flop with J/9s or call bets with 4/6os because they are masters at post flop play and excellent at reading weakness in their opponents.

I can appreciate your patience and you have the right idea....but my guess is you lose a lot with this style. Not only that but if your opponents have 1/2 a brain they peg you as a camper and run for the hills when you do throw a bet out.

What about someone like Dan Harrington? He is well-known for his tightness. Yet he has made it to the last 2 final tables in the WSOP. He must be doing something right ....

You're right that I'm uncomfortable in short-handed games and in the end of SNGs (also short-handed). I just find that my forced aggression at these times and my lack of reading skills intersect to always give me 2nd or 3rd place, if I'm lucky. I seem to do better when face-to-face than online, though.

As a loose player, how do you choose hands? Whatever you feel like playing at the time? Do you have any guidelines at all?

So far, players seem to have about 1/2 a brain against me. They seem to call my pre-flop raises much too loosely, then fold when I bet on the flop. For example, yesterday I had JJ in late position in a $1/$2 NL game. I raised to $15 and got 4(!) callers. The flop came 3 cards smaller than a J but with 3 hearts. They all checked to me and I pushed (without a heart). They all folded. This was one of my more risky plays of the day.

Also, how can you really play loosely in online ring games? I don't see how you can make the same reads that you can in live games. Without seeing their faces and their hands (and the rest), I'm not sure how you can make the really important reads.

{This post has been removed}

I'm not saying I'm so tight that I "camp out waiting for rockets". I'll play any pocket pair for a reasonable amount, any 2 high cards, and some suited connectors. But I'll also fold my small blind when I'm dealt 84o instead of completing.

I'm mostly just trying to figure out how to get from here (rock) to there (the best player that I can be), without losing a ton of cash. And I'm wondering if there is anything other than experience, reflection, and experimentation that can help get me there.

Consider dropping down a limit and playing a lot more hands for the enjoyment of it. Then when you become addicted to it, you can start a thread about tightening up.

Changing gears would do you some good once an old guy calls you a rock.

-'rilla

If you haven't already done so, I realy reccomend you read Dan Harringtons book "Harrington on hold'em". I think it will open your eyes on a lot of things. I for one can't wait till he publishes the second volume of it.

Originally Posted by Spook

If you haven't already done so, I realy reccomend you read Dan Harringtons book "Harrington on hold'em". I think it will open your eyes on a lot of things. I for one can't wait till he publishes the second volume of it.

I'm about half way through it. Good so far, but I know I'm going to have to go back and re-read the examples, at the very least.

P.S. I think maybe there should be a different website for all of the incredibly hot FTR avatar girl pictures. A lot of these make it difficult to focus on the actual content of the post.

I am a huge fan of tight/aggr in cash games. At the low limits weak/tight is sick, just let the idiots pay you off on your big hands, but against skilled players, they're gonna make you pay to play mediocre stuff, and if you establish yourself as tight, when you raise they will give you a few more pots than they should.

Learning to play the table is a MUST. You gotta know who folds to a reraise and who calls it down.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

This guy needs to learn to study the BOARD and step outside the box a little or he will only get pegged as a camper and when he does throw a bet out ...everybody will run like wildfire

I think table image is a bit overrated when it comes to online poker. When I play (my style is either tight/passive or tight/aggressive depending on my mood and whether I'm drunk or stoned), the player turnover rate at the table is always so high that there is a constant flow of new blood that has no idea who I am or what my playing style is. I'm sure there are a few people out there who might think they have a fair idea of how I play, but 95% of the folks I'm up against at any given time are completely new. For this reason, I would not be surprised if "rocks" are at least moderately more successful online than at home games.

Originally Posted by Coarse Bung

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

This guy needs to learn to study the BOARD and step outside the box a little or he will only get pegged as a camper and when he does throw a bet out ...everybody will run like wildfire

I think table image is a bit overrated when it comes to online poker. When I play (my style is either tight/passive or tight/aggressive depending on my mood and whether I'm drunk or stoned), the player turnover rate at the table is always so high that there is a constant flow of new blood that has no idea who I am or what my playing style is. I'm sure there are a few people out there who might think they have a fair idea of how I play, but 95% of the folks I'm up against at any given time are completely new. For this reason, I would not be surprised if "rocks" are at least moderately more successful online than at home games.

That's probably true, but the longer you sit at a table the more you endanger yourself, if you play only one way all the time. It doesn't even matter if 90% of the table has turned over; most of the time there's one guy who has completely pegged you and is still there just to take advantage. If he sees you as a rock and you limp in, he raises every time. If you bet or raise first, he folds knowing he's beat. On the other hand, if you're LAggy and pushing people around, usually more than one person is hanging around just to hit a premium hand and bust you. No matter how you play, someone is noticing your table image, and changing it up here and there can make the difference between breaking even/losing money, or making money.

I always pay careful attention to the people seated near me in a ring game, and I will work on their playing style until they leave. Taking money off the table is good, but tapping a player seated beside you who can't help ending up in a lot of pots with you is better.

Originally Posted by Spook

If you haven't already done so, I realy reccomend you read Dan Harringtons book "Harrington on hold'em". I think it will open your eyes on a lot of things. I for one can't wait till he publishes the second volume of it.

I wish his second volume was out like three weeks ago.

I heard a late-May release, you heard anything else?

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Originally Posted by Spook

If you haven't already done so, I realy reccomend you read Dan Harringtons book "Harrington on hold'em". I think it will open your eyes on a lot of things. I for one can't wait till he publishes the second volume of it.

I wish his second volume was out like three weeks ago.

I heard a late-May release, you heard anything else?

I haven't heard anything, but I think this question should be in the "Tools of Poker" section.

I'd still like any more advice that anyone can give. Especially anything specific that helped transform your game from rock/weak-tight to something better.

I think one thing I am certainly weak about is betting when I smell weakness. I fear that someone is slow-playing a stronger hand and just waiting for me to bluff my money away.

A particularly weak example, different from the other JJ hand:

I had JJ in early position and raised to $15. I got 4 callers. The flop came A-small-small, 2 suits. With so many people in the hand, I expected someone to have an A, so I checked. It checked around. The turn card was a blank. I checked and it went around again. The river card was another blank. Finally, I bet $15 into the $75 pot. One guy called with some lower pair and I took it with my JJ.

I'm not sure if I should have made a half-pot bet on the flop with an A showing. But I'm quite sure I should have made some bet on the turn, if not the flop. How would others play this?

In early position I usually don't bet out but will mix in a check-raise occasionally if the button looks like he's trying to buy it. In mid-late position if it is checked to me I'll fire out a 2/3 pot bet. I would have definitely bet out on the turn, don't give them a chance to catch a K or Q and beat you.

I think one thing I am certainly weak about is betting when I smell weakness. I fear that someone is slow-playing a stronger hand and just waiting for me to bluff my money away.

Like said before, drop down in limits and follow your gut. Get some confidence in your reads and then move back up.

- sed

Originally Posted by sed

Like said before, drop down in limits and follow your gut. Get some confidence in your reads and then move back up.

The problem is that I enjoy playing live games more than Internet games. (Blasphemy around here, I know.) $1/$2 NL is the lowest stakes game that I know of in a casino. I could play limit, but the $2/$4 games at Foxwoods induce brain death within minutes.

So I guess I have to decide between playing more online or growing some balls at the $1/$2 NL live games.

Increased aggression will lead to increased variance. Maybe you could grow some small balls, and get a little more variance, and profit, before you turn into a full blown rippy.

It’s fine to like live games more than net games, but playing a bit online at say .05c .10c blinds might give you the practice you’re looking for on the cheap. A couple of hours won’t kill you, or break your bankroll.

Originally Posted by whileone

Increased aggression will lead to increased variance. Maybe you could grow some small balls, and get a little more variance, and profit, before you turn into a full blown rippy.

It’s fine to like live games more than net games, but playing a bit online at say .05c .10c blinds might give you the practice you’re looking for on the cheap. A couple of hours won’t kill you, or break your bankroll.

Just to be clear: I have balls, they're just not gorilla-sized.

Where do you play $.05/$.10? I would love to play these stakes on UltimateBet, but they have very few tables and the waiting list is always 5+ on all of them. If I remember correctly, PartyPoker doesn't have anything below $.10/$.25 or $.25/$.50.

poker stars. all the way down to .01/.02 cent tables.

That's where i play, because in general, i'm a loser.

good luck.

Zangief -- I play 3-4 days a week in a B&M casino. I only play $1/$2 NL. My game is almost exactly like yours (with one exception described below), and I am a profitable player.

I, too, have struggled with mixing up my play and becoming tougher to read, but the variances (as described by whileone) were, quite frankly, too tough for me to take.

So, what I decided was is to force myself twice every hour of play to bluff at a pot and/or raise with a marginal hand (almost always in late position). I try to show these hands to the table win or lose. Twice an hour may not seem like much, but I've actually increased my hourly profit since instituting this change 2 months ago. I think bluffs and raises with marginal hands stick in people's minds. I did experiment with this strategy in micro-limit NL games on-line first though. Good luck.

Poker Stars has micro limits(down to .01/.02), as well as many others I'm sure.

I was having fun calling raises pre-flop and bluffing until I bluffed away my stack.

Here's one that worked. He bet from the button, so I didn't think he really had anything.

PokerStars Game #1157450044: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/02/01 - 20:44:39 (ET)
Table 'Preziosa' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: texas bob ($9.35 in chips)
Seat 3: R@niN ($9.15 in chips)
Seat 4: vegas26 ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 5: legitimacy ($2.70 in chips)
Seat 6: spunkyduke ($11.65 in chips)
Seat 7: snowdog453 ($11.10 in chips)
Seat 8: BIG O DC ($3.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Zangief0 ($8.40 in chips)
BIG O DC: posts small blind $0.05
Zangief0: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Zangief0 [4h 5c]
texas bob: calls $0.10
R@niN: folds
vegas26: folds
legitimacy: folds
spunkyduke: calls $0.10
snowdog453: calls $0.10
BIG O DC: raises $0.20 to $0.30
Zangief0: calls $0.20
texas bob: calls $0.20
spunkyduke: calls $0.20
snowdog453: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc 2s 4d]
BIG O DC: checks
Zangief0: checks
texas bob: checks
spunkyduke: bets $0.50
vegas26 is sitting out
BIG O DC: folds
Zangief0: raises $0.50 to $1
texas bob: folds
spunkyduke: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [Jc 2s 4d] [8c]
Zangief0: bets $3
spunkyduke: folds
Zangief0 collected $3.15 from pot
Zangief0: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.30 | Rake $0.15
Board [Jc 2s 4d 8c]
Seat 1: texas bob folded on the Flop
Seat 3: R@niN folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: vegas26 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: legitimacy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: spunkyduke folded on the Turn
Seat 7: snowdog453 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 8: BIG O DC (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Zangief0 (big blind) collected ($3.15)

Here's where I got owned, betting my broken straight flush draw. I think this one was close. He took a very long time to call me down.

PokerStars Game #1157563787: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/02/01 - 21:09:11 (ET)
Table 'Preziosa' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 2: deeznizzies ($20.75 in chips)
Seat 3: R@niN ($8.55 in chips)
Seat 5: legitimacy ($10.85 in chips)
Seat 6: spunkyduke ($7.25 in chips)
Seat 7: CaLiBoMBaY ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Zangief0 ($11.55 in chips)
deeznizzies: posts small blind $0.05
R@niN: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Zangief0 [6c 8c]
legitimacy: calls $0.10
spunkyduke: calls $0.10
CaLiBoMBaY: folds
Zangief0: raises $0.30 to $0.40
deeznizzies: folds
R@niN: folds
legitimacy: calls $0.30
spunkyduke: calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [5s 2h 3c]
legitimacy: checks
spunkyduke: checks
Zangief0: bets $0.75
legitimacy: calls $0.75
spunkyduke: folds
*** TURN *** [5s 2h 3c] [7c]
legitimacy: checks
Mad Muckn' joins the table at seat #8
Zangief0: bets $1
legitimacy: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [5s 2h 3c 7c] [2s]
legitimacy: checks
Zangief0: bets $9.40 and is all-in
fatboyma joins the table at seat #4
legitimacy: calls $8.70 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Zangief0: shows [6c 8c] (a pair of Deuces)
legitimacy: shows [8s 7s] (two pair, Sevens and Deuces)
legitimacy collected $21.15 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22.25 | Rake $1.10
Board [5s 2h 3c 7c 2s]
Seat 2: deeznizzies (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: R@niN (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: legitimacy showed [8s 7s] and won ($21.15) with two pair, Sevens and Deuces
Seat 6: spunkyduke folded on the Flop
Seat 7: CaLiBoMBaY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Zangief0 (button) showed [6c 8c] and lost with a pair of Deuces

I should be able to burn off my first $100 in no time. But I am having more fun.

I think you might have take it a little too far....

- sed

Originally Posted by Zangief

I was having fun calling raises pre-flop and bluffing until I bluffed away my stack.

lol. exelent!

Originally Posted by Zangief

Here's where I got owned, betting my broken straight flush draw. I think this one was close. He took a very long time to call me down.

Zangief0: bets $9.40 and is all-in

this is too much. if the guy will call a pot sized bet, he'll call a 10x pot sized bet. if you don't go crazy going all in all the time, he won't be able to tell the difference between a bluff and an honest bet. granted, this may not be true of *every* player, but 95% for sure. no need to risk the whole stack on a bluff. and if you aren't commiting your whole stack on every hand, it won't look unusual.

Originally Posted by Zangief

I should be able to burn off my first $100 in no time. But I am having more fun.

right on! but again, you want to make *more* money than you already are, so be a little cautious.

I play tight but never really weak, if I get a hand i'll bet at you with it, regardless of what's best sometimes. But lately I find its best to wait for a solid hand THEN play loose-r (keyword, looser, not totally loose).

Edit: Especially if you are the main raiser preflop, bet on the flop regardless

Im not a big winner yet, but I think the key from going to weak/tight to weak aggressive is really learning how to play position. I mean showing preflop aggression with position, and not being afraid to throw a pot sized bet out there when the flop dosent hit you. Im talking mostly about Nl. The key there is how many called your preflop raise. More than three, that pot sized bet could be half your stack or so, but If someone hasn't shown aggression and its too me, ill make a half stack bet, or pot bet. I find that if Im called, Im beat and check fold on turn. This can be used later to set someone up if they noticed you give up after the flop call. When you hit a good piece of the flop and they call your flop bet, the Check Raise on the turn will get your previous bets back. The JJ hand you mentioned is one you should've got on the flop. If someone calls you, you can assume they had the ace poor kicker, or tripps. If not you take a nice little pot. When the Ace falls you must represent it when you have the lead. Thats my two cents worth anyways.

I've done the same with my game. When I first started I'd sit at the computer with my groupings chart in front of me. Now I'm much more intuitive, playing position etc. It's definitely helped alot.

Next "hole-plugging" project is getting better with my reads and sometimes i have trouble getting out.

Like I raise with my mid suited connectors from late position with no raises and catch mid pair on the flop and I get smooth called by the slowplayer.

That would be the same problem situation with my reads too. I just hate not betting after it's checked to me.

One big key for me is learning the difference between an aggressive flop player and passive flop player. Online, there are products that will help you determine what kind of player you are up against. if a passive flop player bets at the pot or calls my bet, I get worried and really slow down unless I have the goods. I wont try to trap them. If the player im isolated against is aggresive flop player, than I more appt to let him trap himself or even call him down with AK. With AK I will call them down if they have continuely been hyperaggressive after the flop. This may not be the smartest play sometimes, but I have won alot of pots and slowed these types down at least when they tangle with me. Your gonna lose to 22 or some low pair sometimes, but more often than not I end up seeing Ace little and take it down with my kicker. I have been doing better once I really learned how to use the information these programs give. I was always looking at my stats, and just looking at the pre-flop stats of others at the table. Once I learned how to use the after flop stats, my bankroll and game is getting better. I hate becoming dependent on it, but I figure alot of the other players are using these programs, so it evens the field.