Some beginner help....Please?

Hi,

I am a newb and started playing about 2 months ago. I think I have been playing ok. basically making a small profit. I am playing to 10NL at Paradise Poker.

I am happy enough with my pre flop play (please advise if any of this seems wrong), I play the big cards (AA -JJ, AK AQ) with a raise in any position, the lesser cards (AJ, KQ, TT, 99, 88,) with a small raise in late position, calling small raises, limping in early, limping with small pocket pairs in all positions and calling small raises in late position, limping with KJ, AT, QJ and folding to raises. I also play TJ, T9s, 98s, 87s & Axs in late position with 3 or more limpers and no raisers, being careful if it is raised behind me.

My issues with my own play seem to be post flop play and getting reads on people.

I don't have a problem getting away from a hand if I missed the flop totally (small PP and don't hit a set) and if I hit a draw I use the pot odds to determine whether to continue. The problem is when I hit a piece of the flop.

If I have TP I seem to play it aggressively, betting it out. If there is obviously a possible straight or flush I will fold to a raise. If there is a draw I will be careful if it completes. However if neither of those happen I play aggressively and end up getting bitten by the trips or 2 pair. or if I have 2 pair I get bitten by the trips or completed straights on the river.

My main question I suppose is should I always give the player credit for his hand when he raises and I don't have any reads? What if their only raise is on the iver?

Another question I have is how do you guys collect your reads? I find it hard to remember what player has made a specific play in a 10 way ring game, especially as people are flittering in and out. Do you use a note book to record the other players plays?

I apologise if this either seems seriously stupid or unclear but any help/advice would be greatly received! And when is AOK's book coming out? I want one!

Hornsta

Sounds like you are playing fine.

Having two pair beat by trips is just going to happen sometimes - oh well.

I keep notes on Paradise by using their notes function.

The answers to your questions, imo, come only with experience. We all pay off trips with tptk or overpair more often than we would like. There's no secret to getting reads other than playing tens of thousands of hands and trying to make the best decision each time. Over time you will make more laydowns when your good cards are beat.

The answer to your question, however, is YES on NL10. Players are passive. When they come out with a raise (especially a big one) they have what they think is the nuts more often than not.

Hey Hornsta, good post, I am basically in the same position as you atm and trying to play a very similar style. My big issue atm is exactly yours, trying to gain a read and finding it difficult in 1o handed ring.

My current approach is something I have read here on FTR ... I'm trying mentally (and with a scratch pad) to put opponents on a range of hands. My success rate atm isnt high but what I am doing is keeping a tally of how often I get it right. I'm expecting (hoping) that over a lot of time ... that tally will slowly increase per hour.

Good luck with it I know how you feel! One question back at you ...how do you find 10nl comapred to the lowest level, I'm stll at 2nl until my bankroll gets a little stronger.

Regarding your preflop play - it seems a bit too loose

I play the big cards (AA -JJ, AK AQ) with a raise in any position

You can open raise with AQ, JJ, but be careful calling raises with them, especially vs loose players.

limping with KJ, AT, QJ and folding to raises

limping from EP is often a waste of chips, especially if the table is aggressive,
I tend not to play QJo at all.

I also play TJ, T9s, 98s, 87s & Axs in late position with 3 or more limpers and no raisers, being careful if it is raised behind me.

I think limping suited connectors is good - but you have to drop them if you dont hit the str8 or flush. One of my major leaks in the past was limping them and then hitting TP and ending up losing to TP with better kicker.

Ax is usually a sign of trouble - if an A hits you will either win a small pot or lose a big one.

Regarding your main question - reading people takes time and skill, but after a while you start to recognize patterns.
Keep notes, if you play in a poker room that does not have notes move to one that does.

Learn to recognize slowplay. For example you hit TPTK from late position - villian checks - you bet the flop and get called, villian checks - you bet the turn and get called, and then he pushes the river on a blank - this is often a slowplayed set.

In every hand ask yourself what is the opponent holding - dont just play your cards

Don't be so quick to drop two pair. They're very tricky at times, and you do need to be able to lay them down, but they are fabulous for taking half the stack from TPTK.

Thank you all for your posts. It has encouraged me that i am not completely on the wrong track and that experience counts for so much. Best get playing then!

Originally Posted by Buzz

Good luck with it I know how you feel! One question back at you ...how do you find 10nl comapred to the lowest level, I'm stll at 2nl until my bankroll gets a little stronger.

I find NL10 on Paradise very tight and passive. Generally less than 50% see the flop and people hardly ever raise unless they have something. The thing I find is that generally people at this level don't know when they are beat (including me sometimes) and so they will call a large re-raise with TPTK or draws when you obviously have trips/straight/flush.

The other problem is that people play lesser hands like they have the nuts. This hand is an example I had today:

I don't think I did anything wrong here as I put him on 2 high cards or a pocket pair lower than KK. So as the board was not really connected and not suited I thought I had the best of it, hence the AI call. I was right! But still lost. Unfortunately it happens! I made my money back off other players like him and broke even whilst still learning. Can't be bad.

GAME #1255484795 - (BLINDS $0.05/$0.10) NO LIMIT TEXAS HOLD'EM - 2006/02/01-08:08:39.4 (CST)
Table "Caramulo" (real money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: amicis ($10.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Hornsta9 ($9.17 in chips)
Seat 3: chipraider ($9.80 in chips)
Seat 4: ricardo p ($10.30 in chips)
Seat 5: MediumSalsa ($39.52 in chips)
Seat 7: braumman ($23.95 in chips)
Seat 8: pizead ($7.89 in chips)
Seat 9: Utour ($9.70 in chips)
Seat 10: mykester ($3.80 in chips)
Utour : Post Small Blind ($0.05)
mykester: Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Dealing...
Dealt to Hornsta9 [ Ks ]
Dealt to Hornsta9 [ Kd ]
amicis : Raise ($0.70)
Hornsta9: Raise ($2)
chipraider: Fold
ricardo p: Fold
MediumSalsa: Fold
braumman: Fold
pizead : Fold
Utour : Fold
mykester: Fold
amicis : Call ($1.30)
*** FLOP *** : [ 6s 8h 2c ]
amicis : Bet ($8.20)
Hornsta9: Call All-in ($7.17)
*** TURN *** : [ 6s 8h 2c ] [ 3c ]
*** RIVER *** : [ 6s 8h 2c 3c ] [ 7h ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $17.59 | Rake: $0.90
Board: [ 6s 8h 2c 3c 7h ]
amicis bet $10.20, collected $18.62, net +$8.42 (showed hand) [ 7c 7s ] (three of a kind, sevens)
Hornsta9 lost $9.17 (showed hand) [ Ks Kd ] (a pair of kings)
chipraider didn't bet (folded)
ricardo p didn't bet (folded)
MediumSalsa didn't bet (folded)
big hand vin didn't bet
braumman didn't bet (folded)
pizead didn't bet (folded)

You played it standard. I would have lost my money there as well. But, you will win in the long run. If you are having trouble playing draws as you said in your opening post try this until you get feel for reading people.

Play hard and aggressively if you flop an oesd or flush draw using both your hole cards:
- If your two cards are over cards to the board.
- If you have the nut draw.
- If you have a pair in addition to your draw
- If none of the above check your draw and fold to a bet unless you are getting the odds to call.

This should keep you safe but also allow you to pick-up some pots when you get called and you hit or when they fold.

However if neither of those happen I play aggressively and end up getting bitten by the trips or 2 pair. or if I have 2 pair I get bitten by the trips or completed straights on the river.

My main question I suppose is should I always give the player credit for his hand when he raises and I don't have any reads?

The thing I find is that generally people at this level don't know when they are beat (including me sometimes) and so they will call a large re-raise with TPTK or draws when you obviously have trips/straight/flush.

Looks like you already know the answer.

On the part about having no reads on a player - you should respect the bet for what it is until you know otherwise.

Originally Posted by Hornsta9

Another question I have is how do you guys collect your reads? I find it hard to remember what player has made a specific play in a 10 way ring game, especially as people are flittering in and out. Do you use a note book to record the other players plays?

I think you have to right click on the players name at paradise. A little box opens that you can type stuff into and it will be there the next time you see that player. Poker Tracker is also very valuble for collecting data on players, but is far more useful for collecting data on yourself.

I too have just moved to 10NL and am finding TPTK is getting me into a bit of trouble in a few places. I would suggest playing it fairly strong and assuming you have the best hand until you are raised, but really think very hard about why you are being raised. If you decide the guy isnt a maniac or a habitual semi-bluffer etc. then most of the time you have to fold. The 10NL game at Paradise is a LONG way away from the 2NL game there where you can call allins with TPTK all day long. You are going to find that you can steal alot more often, but you will also have to fold semi-good hands alot more often when someone gets aggressive at you.

Slightly irrelevant to the post, perhaps, but I have a question for you Pelion.

Do you multi-table at your 10 buck NL tables in Paradise?

I moved up about 6 weeks ago with a 150 bucks only to have lost about 4 buy-ins directly. I've gone back to $2 to nurse my wounds and build a bankroll. I'm now at over $175 again, which is still about 75 bucks shy of my goal for moving up again. It seems to me that $150 is just not enough if you're multi-tabling. How do you cope?

Many thanks,

Jigs

If you can multitable properly, variance (and your standard deviation) should not increase, you will just play more hands.

Start single tabling first, then increase the number of tables slowly until you feel you can play your A game across as many tables as you want.

Jiggus: I 2 tabled $2 and pokerstars $5 (which has 2c blinds and 90% of people buy in for $2 so its really just the same as $2 buyin with a couple of big stacks) but I am now single tabling 10NL. I want to get comfortable with the game before I start 2 tabling again. I dont personally think you need any larger a bankroll to multitable than you need to single table. Sure you can lose it fast timewise but as midas said, it still takes the same number of hands. Im single tabling at the moment so I can concentrate better but if i see 2 really loose passive ($2 style) tables then Ill play both.

I suppose I cope by hoping I dont start off on a downswing

In truth i expect to pay a little learning tax on moving up from $2 to $10 since the 2 games are so different. 10NL isnt that hard though so as long as I dont take a few bad beats as soon I move up I should have a chance to build some confidence and get playing ok.



Edit: I am starting to get the feeling that the $2 paradise tables could be more profitable than the $10 tables. 10NL it seems like i actually need to have a hand before I move allin and that takes time and patience. 2NL seems to be all about waiting for TPTK+ and overcharging draws to the point of just pushing on the flop/turn.

Interesting thought, that. I mean about the $2 NL being possibly more profitable. Hard to imagine that, but they are very reliable for earning money. I hope that my $.60/100 hands is going to increase at the ten buck tables, at any rate.

Tell ya what, I'm going to try $10 again. I used to play 10 buck NL at Paradise a fair bit before I found out how to play a little poker a few months ago. Thought I was pretty decent at it even!

On my last return to that limit, though, I was playing scared. Before, I wasn't scared, just stupid. I was scared due to my bankroll. At the 2 buck tables, I can fool around with my game a bit. Trying new tactics to see how they pan out.

I don't think I can just single table anymore, though, it's simply too boring for my style which is pretty uber-tight as astute readers will already know.

I'll start today, wife willing, and if I bust out down to $150 again, I'll stop and build back up at the $2 tables.

Those tables, really are a licence to print money, it's true, especially on the weekends and Friday evenings. Also a most lucrative time is early early mornings (European times), when the Yanks are playing stoned or drunk. It's quite hilarious how often you'll see three morons going all in and the best hole cards any of 'em has are K7 suited.