Are these common newb mistakes? Two Hands Live 2/5 NL

My Background: Started playing 3 years ago at Party $25 NL , $50NL, and SNGs. Took a break after Hurricane Katrina, and have in the past year gotten a lot more serious. I have mainly been playing 5/10 FL 6-Max for rakeback, live spread limit 1-4-8-8 , and MTTs at our local casino. I've been trying to get back to playing NL and decided to take a stab at our local B&M NL game.

The game is usually 1/2 NL with one or two tables filled with a few old TAGs that play every day, a few young LAGs, and a few fish with money that want to give NL a try. I figure a solid TAG game can pwn in this game. What's kept me out are bankroll considerations and the fact that there is no max buy in. So it's deep stacks for the most part.

Friday night I figured I would give it a shot and sat down w/ $300. It was short handed for awhile, but then we combined tables where all the veterans wanted to change to 2/5 NL. I was up to $500 so I agreed. A couple of hours later I am up to about $700+ when the following two hands take place. (If stack sizes are relevant the old TAG in both hands has probably $1500 on the table between chips and cash)

Hand 1:
I'm UTG+1 w/ 1010 and open limp for $5
MP+2 (Old TAG) raises to $20
MP+3 (LAG) Calls $20
I call $15
Pot is $67
Flop comes 10d, 8c, 2d

I lead into the raiser with $20
He raises to $60
MP+3 folds
I think for a minute then reraise to $120
He calls $60
(At this point I'm sure he's got JJ+)
Pot is $307
Turn is 10d,8c,2d,5c
(The adreneline is pumping overtime at this point)
I bet $200 he folds.
How else should that hand be played? Smooth call the flop raise and go for c/r on turn or was the flop reraise correct and just bet less on turn & river?

Hand 2: Aganist same old TAG
I'm in BB with Kd,5d
Old TAG raises UTG+2 to $20
Old LP Woman calls $20 in MP+2
I call $15 <-- bad PF call?
Pot is $65
Flop comes 8d, 9d, 6h
I check to old TAG who makes it $25
Old LP calls $25
I call $25 (What's the correct play here? I figure his range is 99+ AQ+)
Pot is $140
Turn is 8d,9d,6h,5h
I check - old TAG bets $70
Old LP folds
What's the correct play at this point? I feel like he has a big pair and knows I'm drawing. I couldn't gather the balls to reraise and opted to fold, which looking back seems like the worst thing to do.

Online I am able to keep much more of a clear head while playing. But in live tournaments and the NL game I get a lot more anxious. I feel like I played the set in hand 1 too fast and possibly misplayed the second hand from the beginning. I'm curious to see what you guys think.

Thanks in advance!

IMHO, the first hand was played correctly, except for the initial postflop bet. The flop showed a diamond draw, and your $20 bet gave anyone on that draw good pot odds. If it was me, I would have bet at least the pot, if not shoving all-in.

The second hand, I would have folded to the preflop raise. You are under the gun with suited K-rags. Not enough to call a 4xBB bet, I think.

In the second hand, if he DOES think you're drawing then he's not betting enough - the turn is terrifying for a big pair, and assuming he doesn't think you have a seven - and you might - your implied odds are good because he can't possibly fold to every scare card that comes on the river.

I appreciate the input so far.

Originally Posted by Lithium

IMHO, the first hand was played correctly, except for the initial postflop bet. The flop showed a diamond draw, and your $20 bet gave anyone on that draw good pot odds. If it was me, I would have bet at least the pot, if not shoving all-in.

My reasoning for betting $20 into the intial raiser was the following:

Since I am new to this game I figured if the old TAG had what a thought he had (a big pair), he would think I was donking into him w/ something like TPTK and come over the top, which he did.

If the other player in the hand had called the TAGs raise cold I would have pushed, but since he folded I don't know that I should push the flop. Where I second guess myself is the flop reraise. Whether to slow down after his raise and check raise the turn then value bet river. Or is the flop reraise ok just need to bet say $100 on turn and $150 on river?

In the second hand, if he DOES think you're drawing then he's not betting enough - the turn is terrifying for a big pair, and assuming he doesn't think you have a seven - and you might - your implied odds are good because he can't possibly fold to every scare card that comes on the river.

On the turn should I checkraise to rep the seven and have outs if called? If that's a good play, is it better to checkraise - push or checkraise to say $200 to appear to desire a call?

First hand, bet more on the flop and make it easier to get it all in on later streets. I would bet $45 up to pot size.

Otherwise it's fine.

Second hand I fold PF....but as played, flop call is fine. I may see the river here and fold unimproved.....

i disagree with the other comments and how the hands are played.

1st hand - i think you should raise pf.
as played, i think calling the raise behind is fine.
on the flop: you should either check and then checkraise aggressively if someone behind bets. your aim is to get all your money into the pot by the river in this hand. you have a very big hand.
if you do decide to bet yourself, you should bet $45-$70. a $20 bet is not going to grow the pot, and if anything your bet will act as a blocking bet and stop the pot growing. if you think your weak bet will induce a raise (as it did), then it's not the worst play. but there's a good chance he would have raised if you bet $50 - especially if he has a big pair.
by making such small bets you could him so much room to get away from it. if you bet pot on all 3 streets it's hard for to fold a big pair since he doesn't have that much information and you could have a hand like TPTK or a draw.
when he then does raise you. i think you should raise a lot more than $60. there's $187 in the pot at this point. raise between $100 and $150. this will build the pot and give you the chance to get all your chips in. you could also just flat call his raise and then hope to checkraise him on a safe turn, but this means giving up on an opportunity to build the pot.

I think Lithium's advice on shoving allin on the flop is awful. You have a monster hand and he'd have to be quite a bad player to call a $650+ bet into a $67 pot. A TAGG will not call this bet with AA (unless he has seen you bluff like this before and/or you have a mega loose/maniac/idiot image and then he still might fold). you lose way too much value by shoving on the flop straight away.

you turn bet is good. it's a $200 into a $300 pot. it's not so likely villain will bet the turn if check the turn, because your reraise on the flop.

hand 2:
fold pf.
as played: call the flop. probs call the turn. you have 3 to 1 odds and you have some implied odds. i think if you hit you'll be able to get enough to make the call profitable.
the best option on the turn though is probably a checkraise to $300. i wouldn't have the balls to do it but i think it would be the best play. there's a good chance he'll fold. your read says he is unlikely to have the 7. and worst comes to worst you have loads of outs. you have at least 9 for the flush, but if a K or a 5 comes you might also win the hand. that's an extra 5 outs. and a 7 might make it a split pot.
the best idea on the turn might be to checkraise allin actually. if raise to $350 (pot) then you have to call if he shoves.
if you think that he will respect a potsized raise more than an allin, because he thinks the allin is a bluff, then make the pot sized raise. it also gives you a chance to fold on the river if he just calls and you miss on the river.
if you think moving allin gives you a much higher chance of him folding, then imo you should cr push the turn.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i disagree with the other comments and how the hands are played.

1st hand - i think you should raise pf.
as played, i think calling the raise behind is fine.
on the flop: you should either check and then checkraise aggressively if someone behind bets. your aim is to get all your money into the pot by the river in this hand. you have a very big hand.
if you do decide to bet yourself, you should bet $45-$70. a $20 bet is not going to grow the pot, and if anything your bet will act as a blocking bet and stop the pot growing. if you think your weak bet will induce a raise (as it did), then it's not the worst play. but there's a good chance he would have raised if you bet $50 - especially if he has a big pair.
by making such small bets you could him so much room to get away from it. if you bet pot on all 3 streets it's hard for to fold a big pair since he doesn't have that much information and you could have a hand like TPTK or a draw.
when he then does raise you. i think you should raise a lot more than $60. there's $187 in the pot at this point. raise between $100 and $150. this will build the pot and give you the chance to get all your chips in. you could also just flat call his raise and then hope to checkraise him on a safe turn, but this means giving up on an opportunity to build the pot.

I think Lithium's advice on shoving allin on the flop is awful. You have a monster hand and he'd have to be quite a bad player to call a $650+ bet into a $67 pot. A TAGG will not call this bet with AA (unless he has seen you bluff like this before and/or you have a mega loose/maniac/idiot image and then he still might fold). you lose way too much value by shoving on the flop straight away.

you turn bet is good. it's a $200 into a $300 pot. it's not so likely villain will bet the turn if check the turn, because your reraise on the flop.

I think you're right about both the PF raise and the flop play. I should have definitely made nearly a pot-sized bet or possibly even some crazy overbet that would throw him off, but force his raise to be much more than $60.

hand 2:
fold pf.
as played: call the flop. probs call the turn. you have 3 to 1 odds and you have some implied odds. i think if you hit you'll be able to get enough to make the call profitable.
the best option on the turn though is probably a checkraise to $300. i wouldn't have the balls to do it but i think it would be the best play. there's a good chance he'll fold. your read says he is unlikely to have the 7. and worst comes to worst you have loads of outs. you have at least 9 for the flush, but if a K or a 5 comes you might also win the hand. that's an extra 5 outs. and a 7 might make it a split pot.
the best idea on the turn might be to checkraise allin actually. if raise to $350 (pot) then you have to call if he shoves.
if you think that he will respect a potsized raise more than an allin, because he thinks the allin is a bluff, then make the pot sized raise. it also gives you a chance to fold on the river if he just calls and you miss on the river.
if you think moving allin gives you a much higher chance of him folding, then imo you should cr push the turn.

LoL - I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one that thinks that the push would have been correct or that it would take big cahunas to pull off. My gut was telling me to push, but when you're in the moment you can't help but feel like they'll call, you'll miss, and have to make that walk and look like a donkey. Next time it's balls to the wall!

Thanks for the advice

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i disagree with the other comments and how the hands are played.

on the flop: you should either check and then checkraise aggressively if someone behind bets. your aim is to get all your money into the pot by the river in this hand. you have a very big hand.

I think Lithium's advice on shoving allin on the flop is awful. You have a monster hand and he'd have to be quite a bad player to call a $650+ bet into a $67 pot. A TAGG will not call this bet with AA (unless he has seen you bluff like this before and/or you have a mega loose/maniac/idiot image and then he still might fold). you lose way too much value by shoving on the flop straight away.

A check around gives the diamond draw a free card, and turns your monster into a second best hand that is going to take you right to the felt if the third diamond hits. If its a rainbow on the flop with little straight possibility, I agree with a slow play. Otherwise, I would take the pot down right then and there or else make the draw pay more than its worth to do so. Pot size is the right bet, and all in if you think he is going to call regardless.

first hand bet more $$ on the flop into the raiser.. that way you can get it all in faster.. that original bet is important because everything else compounds itself off of that. you want to get all in on the flop, or so close to all in that its an auto push on the turn with him having to call it.

2nd hand is checkraise all in 90% of the time, because (A) you don't mind it being checked through and (B) you need him to bet first to get the pot at the right size to put it all in