Thought Process

What is your thought process check-list so-to speak in any hand? Before making any action? Like what are the factors your run through your mind? Regardless of opening raising/facing a raise/etc.

Ex. Villian is UTG 100bb effective. Opens 3x. Gets 2 callers also 100bb effective. You're OTB. What do you think before deciding your move?

But this is too general because like I'm not trying to know how to think in one specific instance, but just how to think.

Another ex. I'm mid pos with XX and considering opening my hand for a 3-4xx raise and even then shouldn't I be really raising in relation to target sprs? But this opening raise size thing is an discussion for another topic.

What factors should I be always considering? I'm trying to improve my thought process because I usually feel jumbled and find myself in tough spots where if I had thought correctly I know I'd be able to make much easier decisions.

Also how do you decide what factors will weigh more in your decision making than others? Like how can you tell what's a significantly important factor.


Obviously experience is an answer to the question, but it's not much of an answer. Experience will help hone these skills, but you need a building block to even work off of...

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

What is your thought process check-list ... in any hand?

Thanks for asking this question - to mebbe try and get the ball rolling, here's what I [try to] think about:-

* Action to me
* Players already in pot

- Their Profile

+ What are their Weaknesses
+ How Could I Exploit Them (inc. my image and recent history)

- Their Stack Size

* My Position
* Players Yet to Act (in particular, who's in The Blinds)

- Their Profile

+ What are their Weaknesses
+ How Could I Exploit Them (inc. my image and recent history)

- Their Stack Size

* My Hand Strength

Comments?

Wow, this is a really good thread. Looking forward to reading some replies.

My thought process is pretty bad, I am the same as you where if I thought clearly before playing my hand I would find myself in much easier spots.

1. I always look at the previous action when it comes to me
2. Who specifically has done what & their playing styles. Any patterns I have noticed in their play
3. My relative hand strength and my position

Very basic I know but like I said, I do struggle.

What I need to focus on varies on any given day. I have literally written post-it notes and stuck them to the edge of my monitor saying "Small hands play small pots" or "Read the notes you make on villains"

The fundamental things I think about pre-flop are:
Button, button... Who's got the button? (Does anyone here get the reference?)
Hello. Yes, this is Hero. Who's calling, please?
How deep is everyone? I'm not trying to put Descartes before the horse (or donkey, as may be).

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

Thanks for asking this question - to mebbe try and get the ball rolling, here's what I [try to] think about:-

* Action to me
* Players already in pot

- Their Profile

+ What are their Weaknesses
+ How Could I Exploit Them (inc. my image and recent history)

- Their Stack Size

* My Position
* Players Yet to Act (in particular, who's in The Blinds)

- Their Profile

+ What are their Weaknesses
+ How Could I Exploit Them (inc. my image and recent history)

- Their Stack Size

* My Hand Strength

Comments?

.

yeah def not taking my hand strength as the lone criteria. I want to look at who's left to act, how aggro they are etc...
With the hand I got, will I win a big pot if I hit or am I calling too much pre to win a small amount post flop?
What are the betting and folding tendancies of villain postflop etc.

Saying etc doesnt answer shit

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

Saying etc doesnt answer shit

dude don't bash people who are giving you advice.

Originally Posted by bikes

dude don't bash people who are giving you advice.

Yep. I was going to post but I'll pass.

Originally Posted by kmind

Yep. I was going to post but I'll pass.

Awww no! can u plizz post for the non-bashers?

pretty plizz?

An insight into ong's mind...

1. Where's my tea?
2. Where's my lighter?
3. Where's this idiot from?
4. What cards have I got?
5. Who's raising/limping/calling raise?
6. How much? How much do those in the pot have?
7. Who's left to act? How much do they have?
8. How much do I have?
9. Why haven't I got any tea?
10. wtf he's 3betting me? A fucking Russian?
11. wft he's c/c my cbet on rags? Can't this guy fold 77 here?
12. oh fuck off with that turn.
13. fuck off river.
14. fuck off with your shitty river bet, I call ace high.
15. fuck off with your deuces..
16. fucking Russians.
17. Is this guy on any other tables?
18. WHY HAVE ALL THE FISH STARTED HIDING FROM SEARCH?
19. Where's my weed?
20. I'm gonna go on FTR and talk some shit.
21. Haha chelle is funny.
22. I'm gonna go make tea.

Gold Medal, Sir!

Hang on...that'd be an OngBongaGong, right?

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

Saying etc doesnt answer shit

My thought process contains a lot of etc......
so here you go your majesty:

how aggro they are etc... = how aggro they are OR HOW PASSIVE THEY ARE

What are the betting and folding tendancies of villain postflop etc.
= Do I have IO to call with AsXs and hit the flush? Or is he going to pot it every street making calls unprofitable. Will he bet enough postflop to make me money on my set if I call pre with PP?
Is he the type to 2x barrel, making it hard for me to steal?

JFC, just read Double J's post
And points 9+ from Ong

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Button, button... Who's got the button?

DEE DEE! GET OUT OF MY LAB!

Originally Posted by Chusko

DEE DEE! GET OUT OF MY LAB!

wrong reference mate. that is an homage to gene wilder's willy wonka

Originally Posted by bikes

wrong reference mate. that is an homage to gene wilder's willy wonka

I'm pretty sure Dexter's Lab stole it from Willy Wonka which in turn stole it from the children's game.

And given that Mojo's into physics I went with Dexter's Lab.

Bikes wins the Awardie!

Dexter's Lab is after my time, really.

What children's game?

The main thing I think you should be thinking about is "why". If you can logically explain a reason for the decision then that's a start - "I think he can call worse", "I look very strong and his range is fairly weak" etc. Obviously, some of your logic may be faulty initially, but that can be improved as you get used to considering more factors more quickly. On the other hand, clicking buttons without thinking won't help you get any better.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

What children's game?

Button, Button, Who's Got the Button? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are all very good replies. I wasn't bashing anyone. I was being honest, because saying ETC doesn't really explain anything if I don't know what the ETC is...Ya dig? I'm really enjoying reading it and thinking of how I can improve my thinking off of things posted. P.S. Vinland I'm glad you said your majesty...Else it was off with the head

So I'm still fairly curious as to how you decide to weigh certain factors over others? Cause like ONG was saying even something such as LOCATION of a player. Yet that's merely a small factor I highly doubt should get much weight...Yet in a diff more rare situation it might get even more weight? How are you deciding what's more pertinent and important? I like the idea of asking why; offered up by pascal; I mean let's say it's a first hand readless though. Is there like a checklist of things you generally think of in your head?


Ex. Do you just think of a certain reason for an action...Like do you try to justify a why in your head or think of possibilities and go with what seems to make the most sense?

It's sort of abstract, because I mean do you just think like I'ma raise here cause X or...Because of X/Y/Z I feel it's a raise, but if it were Y/X/A I'd call instead of raise or fold instead of call. I mean do you have an idea of what you're going to do or do you actually think of the things before deciding what to do? I would have to think the latter is way more +EV and allows you to make the most optimal decisions? I just seem to think sometimes it's hard to actually decipher what the real info I'm being fed is or how to actually piece it together into a cognitive decision I feel confident in moving forward with. I hope this hooplah makes sense to all you guys, because I'm truly trying to strive to be a better player.

If by location you mean position then this is not 'merely a small factor'. More like one of the biggest factors you should be considering. I don't really have a set list of of what happens first during my thought process but I'm really just a button masher. Things that make me decide which button to mash in some order prolly go like:

-Their position
-Their stats
-My position
-My image (meh)
-Stack sizes
-Their range
-What do I want them to do?
-What do they want me to do?
-etcetera?

things i consider at any given point.

position
raise size
rfi from that position
fold to 3bs overall
fold to 3bs from that position
what they think of my play from the last 30 mins
what they think of my play overall
what i think of their play in the last 30 mins, have they been tilting, have they been getting out of line, have they been over aggressive pre, have they been over isolating
what do i think of their play overall and what are the capable.

what do they think i cc with, what do they think i 3b with, are they the type to 4b bluff or can i run over them with 3bs cause they play oop against them


and thats just the first 3-4s of preflop

i basically go with
who?
has already entered the pot
is left to act
is dead money
is strong
is exploitable
is short
is going to make life difficult for me
has history
where?
position, mine, and that of everyone else. e.g.My UTG range will vary according to who is in the blinds sometimes. My bu 3b likelihood will change vs an UTG open compared to a co open. That sort of thing
what?
are they doing. e.g. Right, they've obviously iso-ed a fish, but they fold to 3bets 85%.
are they likely to do
are my cards
why? -
would this action be ok. e.g. hmm, i want to min 3b vs the min open and two callers, why would that be a good idea? oh, hang on, this isn't a limit table, perhaps it wouldn't be so smart. Ok. Do something else.

This material is golden! Provides great insights into some of the things I can be changing in my own game. I totally meant geographical location; I def think posisition is hudge with a capital D. huDge.

I'm still unsure of how you guys decide what is more important info than other info which might sway a decision from X to Y or vis-a-vis.

I think everyone's got great answers and even hope that reading replies in this thread will make you think of your OWN game! Shit, prosperity for everyone...Unless we HUflip4ROLLZ then FU

less weed before you post bro

Must still be feeling last night...Mind body n soul :O

Truthfully tho i had intended this thread to mainly benefit me; but I'm see great merit how it can improve others games too.

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

I'm still unsure of how you guys decide what is more important info than other info which might sway a decision from X to Y

Wow. Now that you mention it, I am too. We all do this. We all weigh many factors and somehow decide which are most important or relevant. However, the analyses and conclusions are the results of a dynamic process.

Why is it sometimes more important to weigh table dynamics over personal reads? Surely it is. We try to have a feel for that, but what is the exact logic that leads to the switch?

Hey Bikes! How about spoon-feeding us with a sticky post on this one?

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

or vis-a-vis.

Did you mean vise versa here?

k

Thanks man; I'd hate to see for this to go unnoticed. The questions have only begun!

Originally Posted by bikes

less weed before you post bro

Don't listen to bikes unless he's talking about poker. More weed before you post imo.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Did you mean vise versa here?

No, he meant vice versa

My preflop thought process.

Stack size
Position
Reads on anyone already in the pot.
Look left, who's still to act?
My image (usually past 20 hands)
My hand, fold/call/raise and why?

My thought process...
Why am I about to make the move that I'm planning to make?
What do I hope to accomplish and what will it do to my decisions on later streets? Will it make them more or less difficult?
Will it give my opponents opportunities to make, hopefully, big mistakes?
Where's my bottle of Jack?

I'm going to add this thread to the Digest and unsticky it Further responses are encouraged though!

An addition to this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...is-191587.html

It's for tournaments, not for cash games (although Max plays cash games too) but I think it gives a great idea of the kind of thought processes which go through a professional players head and he's taking questions if you have any too!

No one seems to be able to answer how we decide which factors are more important or how we decide what pieces of information are of more value than one another. Also how are we even able to decipher the information we are being fed that we turn it into reads about their playing abilities. It seems like we need large samples to start developing really solid reads from what I've read. Well then what becomes note worthy as you work towards developing these reads? I mean shouldn't we just 1-table and just note everything these players do? Seems like it would be very tedious and reading player notes would be similar to reading a page of a book after a few hundred hands; n with online timers well you got like 30secs. So that really begs the question still of how do we decipher through our information to figure what is the most important factors that should affect our decision making. Even for like minor decisions. I don't think people should just slack on so called ez choices. Every choice should have sound logical reasoning.

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

No one seems to be able to answer how we decide which factors are more important or how we decide what pieces of information are of more value than one another. Also how are we even able to decipher the information we are being fed that we turn it into reads about their playing abilities. It seems like we need large samples to start developing really solid reads from what I've read. Well then what becomes note worthy as you work towards developing these reads? I mean shouldn't we just 1-table and just note everything these players do? Seems like it would be very tedious and reading player notes would be similar to reading a page of a book after a few hundred hands; n with online timers well you got like 30secs. So that really begs the question still of how do we decipher through our information to figure what is the most important factors that should affect our decision making. Even for like minor decisions. I don't think people should just slack on so called ez choices. Every choice should have sound logical reasoning.

Tacit knowledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sometimes it really is just impossible to put into words or describe logically how we come up with a decision. We all use these factors to come up with one, but which ones we deem important really depends on the current situation and dynamics, imo. It makes it even harder to do on such a complicated game like poker where there are several variables to consider.

Might as well throw in my tuppence worth.

My reasoning goes like this:-
Pre-flop
Will I have position on the flop?
Will I have position on the flop?
Will I have position on the flop?

Flop
I cant believe the button called.
I cant believe I'm first to act.
This is a fantastic/terrible/indifferent flop but I don't know what to do. This would be so much easier if I was last to act.
How the hell did I end up playing this out of position.

The Turn
I cant believe I'm first to act.
What the hell should I do here?
I am NEVER playing a hand out of position again.

The River
Ohh god I hate this. Why is the action on me? I dont want to be first to act. I don't know what to do.
Do I bet for value? Bet as a bluff? Check/fold? Check/raise? Bet/fold? Check/call? Bet/call? Shove? AAAARRGGGHHHH!
I knew I should have just open-folded the flop. This is just unfair. It shouldn't happen to me. It should only be other people who have to play three streets OOP.
I am NEVER playing a hand again unless I've got the button.

Next Hand Pre-flop
Awww FFS. The button's called my pre-flop raise again. Where's that 'sit out' button gone.

Bump

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

No one seems to be able to answer how we decide which factors are more important or how we decide what pieces of information are of more value than one another. Also how are we even able to decipher the information we are being fed that we turn it into reads about their playing abilities. It seems like we need large samples to start developing really solid reads from what I've read. Well then what becomes note worthy as you work towards developing these reads? I mean shouldn't we just 1-table and just note everything these players do? Seems like it would be very tedious and reading player notes would be similar to reading a page of a book after a few hundred hands; n with online timers well you got like 30secs. So that really begs the question still of how do we decipher through our information to figure what is the most important factors that should affect our decision making. Even for like minor decisions. I don't think people should just slack on so called ez choices. Every choice should have sound logical reasoning.

How do we decide which factors are more important? I think people decide which factors are more important based on variables including, mood, personality type, skill level, history between opponent ETC. This means that each person has the potential to weigh each factor(s) differently at different periods of time.