Top ten no-limit starting hands

I would say those would be:

AA KK QQ JJ AKs TT AKo AQs AQ AJs

in that order
I would say that the denominations of the cards are a little more important in tight no-limit games than being suited where you make a flush only 3% of the time

You REALLY don't want to have AQs against AK because your best shot is a queen or a flush

Does anyone agree/disagree?

If you disagree, what would be your top ten?

EDIT: switched TT and AKo

all of those except AQs AQ and AJ, do not play these against a raise from a solid player... these are over rated hands.

With a read on a maniac, you can play them, but if the rock of gibraltor raises big UTG and you have AQ, fold it.

Originally Posted by jmontis

all of those except AQs AQ and AJ, do not play these against a raise from a solid player... these are over rated hands.

With a read on a maniac, you can play them, but if the rock of gibraltor raises big UTG and you have AQ, fold it.

Well duh... IF a tight player raises from UTG

It's not like you can make top ten hands if you say anything but the top 7 are no good

Unless you want to claim 99 is better than AJs

I have seen AQ rated below both AJs and KQs, I am very inexperienced so can't speak for my own top ten yet. I can see why AJs is preferred to AQ, if you aren't drawing on the straight or flush you can fold it easily (if you don't flop jacks), but AQ is beaten by most strong hands unless you flop a queen.

99 IS better than AJs...

AJ runs huge risks of being dominated. 99 is a midpair (like TT/JJ) and plays fairly strongly.

i dont play AJo at all so maybe im biased.

Originally Posted by iopq

you make a flush only 3% of the time

Actually, that's closer to 6 or 7%. I tested this by pitting AcKc vs AsKs against each other in poker stove. Also, don't always mold your hands to fit some arbitrary starting hands chart. The hands you play should be dependent on the table, the amount of limpers and position. If everyone limps or folds around to me on the button and i have AQ or AJ, i'm gonna pop off a raise because I think i'm ahead preflop. If someone raises and everyone folds to me, I'm folding AJ in that situation because there is nothing more menacing than being dominated and hitting your A.

AA KK QQ AKs JJ TT 99 88 77 66 55 44 33 22

AQs, QJs

In that order. PP's are great in NL. Nothing quite like hitting a set and getting somebody's money with it.

QJs and AQs are just really pretty in my opinion. And I just kinda love QJs. Something magical about it for me. It's MY hand. So yeah. Everyone gets attached to certain hands. You just gotta make sure that you let it go when you're beat.

Originally Posted by iopq

I would say those would be:

AA KK QQ JJ AKs AK TT AQs AQ AJs

in that order

Our http://www.flopturnriver.com/essays_...ps_0_to_2.html page has KQs in the top 10 and AQ as number 11. Overall the above list is pretty close to the one we have.

Unless you want to claim 99 is better than AJs

This is a very timely, and funny, topic. In a recent tourney I was in, it was down to the final three. I raised pre-flop with AJs. The two opponents called. The flop came 8-A-9. It was checked to me, and I bet the pot. One person raised me an equal amount. I read that as "I caught my Ace" since this player was known for playing Ax, and proceeded to push all-in. I was promptly called and my op flipped over his 9's, putting me out in 3rd place.

However, I would define "top 10 starting hands" as the 10 hands I'd most be willing to push my stack in pre-flop with a full table. For me, it's:

AA KK QQ AKs AK JJ TT AQs AQ 99 88

But as Outphase said, it's situational and very dependent on opponents, position, stack sizes, etc.

AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo, JJ, AQs, AQo, TT, AJs

AQo is definately a stronger hand then KQs.

- Lukie

Originally Posted by outphase

Originally Posted by iopq

you make a flush only 3% of the time

Actually, that's closer to 6 or 7%. I tested this by pitting AcKc vs AsKs against each other in poker stove. Also, don't always mold your hands to fit some arbitrary starting hands chart. The hands you play should be dependent on the table, the amount of limpers and position. If everyone limps or folds around to me on the button and i have AQ or AJ, i'm gonna pop off a raise because I think i'm ahead preflop. If someone raises and everyone folds to me, I'm folding AJ in that situation because there is nothing more menacing than being dominated and hitting your A.

3% for AcKc to make it and 3% for AsKs to make it
total of 6%

as for AJ running the risk of being dominated... 99 runs the risk of being dominated as well... by a higher pair! It's 20% to win for the nines, when AsJs vs. AcKh is slightly over 30%

I would say that 99 is a better hand to go all-in with

But if you see a flop and you see an overcard (you'll see one the majority of the time) do you know if your opponent hit anything? He knows it. He knows you don't know it. That gives him greater leverage. You're only going to flop a set 10% of the time. In fact, ANY pair can hit a set.

But why are big pairs better? They can win on their own without improving. Middle pairs are hard to play.

What about AJs vs. AQo?
First of all, some of the time you will be unsure of how good your ace is. Calling an all-in reraise when I hit my ace I'll be way more comfortable with AQ.
Second, when you have a flush draw with AJs. You're going to get one almost 1/10 of the time. You can call a small bet or semi-bluff. Getting a flush draw with AQo is a great deal less likely - about twice as likely as a flopped flush for AJs. But of course, the other flush draw is only queen high with one card...

So being in possible kicker trouble arises about as often as a flush draw...
Flopped flushes MAY give you a lot of money rarely. Runner-runner flushes are very tricky hands that no one can put you on.

But there is another issue - when you hit your second card, with AJs you are looking at your pair as a second pair on the board TWICE as often as with AQo

So, in tighter tables I'd prefer AQo
In looser games I'd prefer AJs since I get paid for making flushes more and I'm not afraid of being outkicked as much

as for KQs it's kind of a sad hand since heads-up it can't even beat A2o
plays better in multiway pots, of course
Definitely weaker than AJs since your flush is not the nut flush 80% of the time

As far as small pocket pairs you have usually bad odds to draw to a set... and even then your hand is not invincible.

Originally Posted by sobe1

However, I would define "top 10 starting hands" as the 10 hands I'd most be willing to push my stack in pre-flop with a full table. For me, it's:

AA KK QQ AKs AK JJ TT AQs AQ 99 88

Top Ten ?

{This post has been removed}

I'd agree that Hellmuth is a tool, but I like Tool and tools in general, so I'll go with punk.

How great can he be if he can't take a beat. Give me Phil Ivey any day. Think Lederer would have given the famous "If it wasn't for luck" speech? He'll never crack MY top 10 list, as much as he thinks he's heading for Greatest Ever status.

His attitude is shitty, his game is incredible. I think everyone pretty much shares that opinion to the point that its fact. If it wasnt for luck it would be a split pot every hand...

PHIL HELLMUTH
26-Jun-05 $ 5,000 Pot Limit Omaha
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 8th $ 70,625
19-Jun-05 $ 1,500 Pot Limit Omaha
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 10th $ 5,080
05-Jun-05 $ 1,500 Limit Hold'em
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 42nd $ 4,200
03-Jun-05 $ 1,500 No Limit Hold'em
36th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2005, Las Vegas 24th $ 15,905
05-Mar-05 Heads-Up No Limit Hold'em
2005 National Heads-Up Poker Championship, Las Vegas 1st $ 500,000
14-Dec-04 $ 15,000 World Poker Tour Championship - No Limit Hold'em
Five-Diamond World Poker Classic, Las Vegas 41st $ 21,781
01-Sep-04 No Limit Hold'em - Tournament of Champions
World Series of Poker Tournament of Champions, Las Vegas 2nd
20-Aug-04 € 5,710 Episode 3
The Gaming Club World Poker Championship (Pot Limit Hold'em), Dublin 3rd
14-May-04 $ 3,000 Pot Limit Hold'em
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 7th $ 34,880
10-May-04 $ 2,000 Pot Limit Hold'em
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 6th $ 29,800
09-May-04 $ 2,000 Omaha Hi-Lo Split
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 21st $ 2,580
02-May-04 $ 2,500 Limit Hold'em
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 26th $ 3,280
26-Apr-04 $ 1,500 Omaha Hi-Lo Split
35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 17th $ 4,120
14-Nov-03 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em WPT Event
2003 World Poker Finals, Mashantucket 3rd $ 281,700
01-Oct-03 $ 1,000 No Limit Hold'em
2003 Four Queens Poker Classic, Las Vegas 7th $ 3,055
17-Sep-03 $ 9,800 No Limit Hold'em Main Event
2003 United States Poker Championship, Atlantic City 3rd $ 116,424
30-Jun-03 $ 1,500 Pot Limit Omaha
Festa al Lago, Las Vegas 4th $ 8,585
09-Jun-03 € 1,000 World Heads Up Poker Championships 2003
Austrian Masters 2003, Vienna 33rd
19-May-03 $ 10,000 World Championship Event
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 27th $ 45,000
15-May-03 $ 3,000 No Limit Hold'em
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 1st $ 410,860
10-May-03 $ 3,000 Limit Hold'em
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 6th $ 15,040
30-Apr-03 $ 1,500 Limit Omaha
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 3rd $ 15,800
26-Apr-03 $ 2,500 Limit Hold'em
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 1st $ 171,400
23-Apr-03 $ 2,000 H.O.R.S.E.
34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 12th $ 3,160
14-Apr-03 $ 25,000 WPT Championship - No Limit Hold'em
2003 Bellagio Five-Star World Poker Classic WPT Championship, Las Vegas 20th $ 15,999
09-Feb-03 $ 1,000 Omaha Hi/Lo
2003 L.A. Poker Classic, Los Angeles 1st $ 55,485
28-Jan-03 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em Championship - WPT
The Fourth Annual Jack Binion World Poker Open, Tunica 10th $ 18,324
12-Dec-02 No Limit Hold'em
2002 United States Poker Championship, Atlantic City 8th $ 1,975
09-Dec-02 $ 1,500 Pot Limit Omaha
Bellagio Five Diamond Poker Classic - 2002, Las Vegas 2nd $ 29,449
04-Dec-02 $ 1,000 Pot Limit Hold'em
Bellagio Five Diamond Poker Classic - 2002, Las Vegas 3rd $ 13,386
10-Nov-02 $ 3,000 No Limit Hold'em - Main WPT Event
2002 Gold Rush, San Francisco 4th $ 34,000
07-Nov-02 $ 200 Seven Card Stud
2002 Gold Rush, San Francisco 8th $ 500
08-Oct-02 $ 300 Limit Hold'em
2002 Caribbean Poker Classic, Palm Beach 3rd $ 1,220
26-Apr-02 $ 2,500 No Limit Hold'em - Gold Bracelet Match Play
33rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2002, Las Vegas 2nd $ 17,000
24-Apr-02 $ 1,500 Limit Omaha
33rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2002, Las Vegas 8th $ 3,640
17-Mar-02 $ 8,000 Limit Hold'em - Final Results
Party Poker Million, Cruise 3rd $ 62,400
09-Mar-02 Game 2
Late Night Poker Series 5, Cardiff 7th
16-Feb-02 $ 1,000 H.O.S.E.
2002 L.A. Poker Classic, Los Angeles 2nd $ 25,600
22-Jan-02 $ 300 Limit Texas Hold'em
The Third Annual Jack Binion World Poker Open, Tunica 2nd $ 28,087
19-Jan-02 $ 1,000 No-Limit Texas Hold'em
The Third Annual Jack Binion World Poker Open, Tunica 8th $ 3,841
29-Nov-01 Semi Final
Late Night Poker Series 4, Cardiff 6th
11-Oct-01 Game 1
Late Night Poker Series 4, Cardiff 2nd
23-Aug-01 $ 1,000 7 Card Stud
2001 Legends of Poker, Los Angeles 2nd $ 12,650
24-Jun-01 $ 200 Limit Hold'em
California State Poker Championship 2001, Los Angeles 9th $ 1,721
19-Jun-01 $ 500 Omaha Hi Lo Split
California State Poker Championship 2001, Los Angeles 5th $ 2,200
07-Jun-01 ATS 10,000 No Limit Holdem
Austrian Masters 2001, Vienna 1st ATS 295,860 $ 18,482
05-Jun-01 ATS 34,400 World Heads Up Poker Championships Finals
Austrian Masters 2001, Vienna 33rd
14-May-01 $ 10,000 Championship Event
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 5th $ 303,705
11-May-01 $ 5,000 Omaha Hi-Lo Split Eight or Better
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 2nd $ 103,785
05-May-01 $ 1,500 Ace to Five Draw Lowball
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 15th $ 1,850
03-May-01 $ 2,500 Omaha (pot limit)
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 15th $ 4,910
29-Apr-01 $ 3,000 Texas Hold'em (limit)
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 6th $ 19,555
26-Apr-01 $ 1,500 Seven Card Stud Hi-Lo Split Eight or Better
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 9th $ 4,685
24-Apr-01 $ 2,000 Texas Hold'em (no limit)
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 1st $ 316,550
26-Mar-01 $ 500 Omaha Hi-Lo
2001 Shooting Stars, San Jose 1st $ 13,875
14-Dec-00 Grand Final
Late Night Poker Series 3, Cardiff 1st £ 45,000 $ 64,973
26-Oct-00 Game 2
Late Night Poker Series 3, Cardiff 1st
05-May-00 $ 2,500 Omaha (pot-limit)
31st World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2000, Las Vegas 4th $ 29,250
02-May-00 $ 2,000 Texas Hold'em (pot-limit)
31st World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2000, Las Vegas 6th $ 16,450
04-May-99 $ 2,500 Omaha 8 or Better
30th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1999, Las Vegas 5th $ 20,925
02-May-99 $ 2,500 No Limit Hold'em
30th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1999, Las Vegas 12th $ 9,210
28-Apr-98 $ 2,000 Omaha 8 or Better
29th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1998, Las Vegas 14th $ 4,080
25-Apr-98 $ 1,500 Omaha Pot Limit
29th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1998, Las Vegas 16th $ 3,870
12-May-97 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship
28th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1997, Las Vegas 21st $ 21,200
06-May-97 $ 3,000 Hold'em Pot Limit
28th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1997, Las Vegas 1st $ 204,000
03-May-96 $ 2,500 Omaha 8 or Better
27th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1996, Las Vegas 6th $ 12,375
25-Apr-94 $ 1,500 No Limit Hold'em
25th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1994, Las Vegas 2nd $ 67,500
08-May-93 $ 5,000 Limit Hold'em
24th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1993, Las Vegas 1st $ 138,000
07-May-93 $ 2,500 No Limit Hold'em
24th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1993, Las Vegas 1st $ 173,000
30-Apr-93 $ 5,000 Deuce to Seven Draw
24th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1993, Las Vegas 2nd $ 72,500
26-Apr-93 $ 1,500 No Limit Hold'em
24th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1993, Las Vegas 1st $ 161,400
09-May-92 $ 5,000 Limit Hold'em
23rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1992, Las Vegas 1st $ 168,000
06-May-92 $ 2,500 Hold'em Pot Limit
23rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1992, Las Vegas 8th $ 6,700
03-May-92 $ 2,500 Limit Hold'em
23rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1992, Las Vegas 2nd $ 84,000
01-May-92 $ 5,000 Deuce to Seven Draw
23rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1992, Las Vegas 4th $ 26,500
26-Apr-92 $ 1,500 No Limit Hold'em
23rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1992, Las Vegas 9th $ 5,715
15-May-89 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship
20th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1989, Las Vegas 1st $ 755,000
12-May-89 $ 2,500 Omaha Pot Limit
20th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1989, Las Vegas 5th $ 25,300
May-88 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship
19th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1988, Las Vegas 33rd $ 7,500
May-88 $ 1,500 Seven-Card Stud Split
19th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1988, Las Vegas

DAVID SKLANSKY
09-May-05 $ 1,000 No Limit Hold'em
2005 Mirage Poker Showdown, Las Vegas 6th $ 10,439
18-Apr-05 $ 25,000 Main Event (WPT) - No Limit Hold'em Championship
Third Annual Five-Star World Poker Classic, Las Vegas 16th $ 75,485
05-Mar-05 Heads-Up No Limit Hold'em
2005 National Heads-Up Poker Championship, Las Vegas 9th $ 25,000
07-Feb-05 $ 970 Seven Card Stud Hi/Lo
2005 L.A. Poker Classic, Los Angeles 15th $ 1,323
19-Sep-03 $ 500 No Limit Hold'em
2003 Borgata Poker Open - WPT, Atlantic City 25th $ 1,038
20-May-02 $ 10,000 Championship Event
33rd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2002, Las Vegas 42nd $ 20,000
25-Apr-01 $ 1,500 Omaha (limit)
32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 5th $ 9,430
10-May-89 $ 5,000 Seven-Card Stud
20th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1989, Las Vegas 2nd $ 96,250
May-88 $ 10,000 No Limit Hold'em World Championship
19th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1988, Las Vegas 27th $ 8,750
May-88 $ 1,500 Seven-Card Stud Split
19th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1988, Las Vegas 8th $ 6,180
May-83 $ 1,000 Omaha Limit
14th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1983, Las Vegas 1st $ 25,500
May-82 $ 800 Mixed Doubles
13th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1982, Las Vegas 1st $ 8,800
May-82 $ 1,000 Draw High
13th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 1982, Las Vegas 1st $ 15,50

DONT MAKE IT PERSONAL PLEASE. Rippy has his way of playing, as does anybody else, just because he doesnt play or believe in the 'typical style' of play doesnt mean people should rag him about it.

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one, so just make sure we mutually respect each others opinions. Rippy aint dissing your mom, no need to get nasty.

And for the record, I believe that the tighter you play, the less postflop skill you need to succeed (mildly, mind you) in poker. I believe all the pro's are great players, Phil included, and guys like Soupie and Michael are right behind them. I think I could be a pro as could most of us here if we had a huge bankroll like some people do, but we dont. I for one admire the way Rippy plays because he needs lots of postflop skill to make his aggressive style work, and thats exactly what he has.

Keep it clean boys, we dont need a pissing match.


-Chris

{This post has been removed}

DO you see the quotes by YOU that I just put in the thread above?

And my question to you still stands, if sklansky is such a lame ass why does he have better tournament results than you?

rippy, like always,you are avoiding the issue:


whats your top ten list of hands? I can guess what it starts with

{This post has been removed}

So anyways back to what this thread was originally about.

Here's what I believe to be the top 10
http://boardgames.about.com/od/poker...t_starting.htm

AA KK QQ AKs AQs JJ KQs AJs AKo 1010

And the worst 5
http://boardgames.about.com/od/poker...t_starting.htm

27o 28o 38o 29o 26o
Keep in mind this is multiway not heads up. 23o is worst heads up.

RHCNNN:

phil hellmuth is jesus's older brother...can we move on?

Just as I expected. Groupies rushing to Ripptydes aid. Except you guys know he's got his foot in his mouth so you just take mild jabs at me instead... cuz its all you can do. I'm not on Hellmuth's nuts. He's not my favorite player or anything. I just can't stand the hypocricy/audacity of Ripptydes posts.

I've beat Hellmuth heads up. He isn't that good.

AA KK QQ AKs AQs JJ KQs AJs AKo 1010

ehhhh
jacks are better than AKs
they are the overpair to the flop more often than AKs hits
you hit a set as often as AKs gets a flush DRAW or a flopped flush
it blocks straights for AK by having one of the jacks
it is the favorite
it beats all the smaller pairs better than AK
it is dominated less by two aces

there is nothing better about AKs
jacks win more money more often and with many callers can hit a set and still win whereas hitting top pair aces gives someone a straight draw and someone might have two pair

AQs is even worse
in fact, I like AKo better against tighter opponents

KQs is a crappy flush draw... because when you hit the best flush someone can pay you off with is jack high...
this hand goes best for the straight draw because it's the nut straight draw two ways
I wouldn't play it in first position in a tight table

It's beat by A2o pre-flop! Totally weak hand and you only hit two pair or better 5% of the time

nines are better than KQs

in fact AQo is better

my top 10 seem to be AA KK AK 56o 47o 57o 79o and pockets from 4 to 7

Well here are some assumptions in this thread:
You didn't see the flop yet (MY FAVORITE HAND IS NUTS)
Your position is not included and action in the hand is not included(EVERYONE FOLDED TO ME I LOVE THIS HAND)

I'm always cautious playing medium pairs like JJ-88. People like to raise in that situation to narrow the field, but the problem is that if anybody calls they probably hold two overcards to your JJ, and if just one overcard comes on the flop you're pretty much toast, unless they let you see a free card and you hit a jack. If no overcards come on the flop is when you really cash in with a hand like JJ. I just find myself always losing with JJ when an overcard comes on the board.

As for Hellmuth and Ivey, both are great players. Anybody who says that Hellmuth isn't a great player is probably turned off by his ego. He is a very smart player, and I like his style of play outside of his temper tantrums. Phil Ivey is who I think ranks in the top 5 of all poker players. He is very accomplished in other forms of poker as well, such as 7 card stud and omaha.

Jacks actually benefit from multiway pots as shown by computer analysis
Compared to AK anyway


First of all, if you flop an overpair to the flop, then the top card can pair more easily so you can outdraw bottom two pair easier than if you had top pair
You could catch a set - which is 10% of the time and it's a better camouflaged hand than aces up
A set improves to a full house much easier than two pair

One might consider limping with jacks
If you get 6 callers you'll fair better than if you got only one or two with two big cards since the pot odds are almost right for getting the set and you have the whole overpair thing going on too
someone might have limped with ATo
he would be very happy about a 25T rainbow flop in an unraised pot

My top 10 favorite?

AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 77 66 55

Cash machines every day.

So you'd rather see 55 than AKs?

Remember, you only hit the flop like 15% of the time

(by hitting the flop I mean open end straight draw that's not the sucker straight draw or a set or quad fives or a pair on the board and a low third card or three of a kind of another card on the flop)

Whereas AKs hits the flop over 40% of the time (flush, flush draw, straight draw, straight, TPTK, aces up, full house, trips, quads, etc.)

Originally Posted by iopq

Well here are some assumptions in this thread:
You didn't see the flop yet (MY FAVORITE HAND IS NUTS)
Your position is not included and action in the hand is not included(EVERYONE FOLDED TO ME I LOVE THIS HAND)

I think ripptyde's point is just that you are never acting in a void like this. So if you want to disregard those factors, you're actually asking about the Top Ten Most Versatile hands?

I think that'd be AA-TT, AKs-ATs. That's only nine ... need one more, and unfortunately you have to incorporate action into the last pick:

unraised? KQs
raised in front of you? AKo (if raised in front of you, you might also prefer 99 & 88 to AJs and ATs).

Now, it looks like I'm adding AKo as an afterthought, or like I'm saying AJs is better than AK. Not so; it's just more versatile. Offsuit non-pairs are at a disadvantage multiway. Again, the context can't be set aside.

That is to say ...

it depends.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I'd agree that Hellmuth is a tool, but I like Tool and tools in general, so I'll go with punk.

lol, that's fckn hilarious.

On the other hand:
Is Hellmuth arrogant/childish/<fill in the blank> ? No doubt. Is he a good poker player? Hard to argue with his record.

It's true that some hands are better against tough opponents and some are better against loose ones.

Like AQo vs. AJs
against loose opponents your kicker doesn't make a difference often
But the flush will get paid off nicely... so even if you make it 3% of the time, it's increasing your total profits by 15% with that hand

But if the opponents are tight, AJs becomes a trap hand when you get a pair of aces.

So, yes, I want the top ten most "versatile" hands. What I would actually want is top ten most profitable hands. Of course, depending on your table image and style some hands might go better and also depending on the table. But through all tables, through rushes of cards and getting nothing but crap for the last twenty hands, statistically averaged out, as played by a decent player, which hand will show the most profit?

I still think KQs is not that great even in unraised pots. Your flush isn't the nuts, and your kicker is always second best. It's more of a limit hand than no-limit. Your best shot is making a straight since it's always the nuts when you use both of your cards.

I would not rate KQs in the top ten no matter what the conditions. In pots with 6 or more people pp come out ahead due to implied odds of hitting a set, in pots with less opponents AKo, AQo are stronger

Originally Posted by iopq

AA KK QQ AKs AQs JJ KQs AJs AKo 1010

ehhhh
jacks are better than AKs
they are the overpair to the flop more often than AKs hits
you hit a set as often as AKs gets a flush DRAW or a flopped flush
it blocks straights for AK by having one of the jacks
it is the favorite
it beats all the smaller pairs better than AK
it is dominated less by two aces

there is nothing better about AKs
jacks win more money more often and with many callers can hit a set and still win whereas hitting top pair aces gives someone a straight draw and someone might have two pair

I'm not saying AKs is a better hand then JJ, IMO it's very situation dependant. But there are definately things about AKs that are better then JJ
- Nut flush
- Nut straight
- Wheel on 2345x board
- AK pairs an A or K on the flop less often then JJ is an overpair to the flop, but it is also a stronger hand.
- Flip vs QQ
- Dominates KQ and AQ, and can be paid off nicely if you both hit top pair.
- Is dominated less by KK

- Lukie

By nothing better I didn't mean there aren't specific boards that don't favor AKs more than JJ
I'm talking about:
How much money you'll make with the hand
How strong it is preflop
How strong it is postflop when you don't hit
How strong it is postflop when you do hit

Realize that when jacks are the overpair to the board jacks are a STRONGER hand than just top pair top kicker. 43% of the time jacks are the overpair to the flop. 10% of the time jacks hit trips.
Preflop jacks are 57% favorite if all in
Postflop jacks are ahead more often

Also, jacks are behind only vs. AA KK and QQ
AKs is actually more behind against AA

jacks get paid off in set over set situations

there are more ways in getting money with jacks than AKs
I mean, flushes are easy to read

and a QJT board doesn't look too inviting
but hitting a set on a 2JA board is a very well-concealed hand and will get paid off by a pair of aces

jacks play stronger pre-flop and have a better chance of being strong post-flop
AKs might hit some very strong hands, but those are not going to get paid off as handsomely as an overpair or a set - which are relatively weaker, but have a better chance to make money

and I mean, seriously, WHO would call on a 2345x board? They better suspect you have an ace if you raised preflop.

"- AK pairs an A or K on the flop less often then JJ is an overpair to the flop, but it is also a stronger hand."
Untrue
imagine the following board:
777Ax
anyone with an ace will split the pot because the kicker no longer matters

now imagine
777T9
jacks will win the pot from someone holding a ten or a nine precisely because it's an overpair

there is no situation where you could say that the TPTK is a stronger hand than an overpair
compare:
25T flop AT has TPTK
JJ is an overpair

there is no flop where TPTK is stronger than an overpair barring draws

'RILLA'S TOP TEN EASIEST HANDS TO PLAY

AA
KK
TT
99
88
77
66
55
44
33


Discuss.

-'rilla

JJ can be easily dominated by AA KK QQ and is still only 55% against AKs. AKs is only dominated by AA and KK. AKs > JJ

in fact, you're right
I'll fold JJ from now on because there in fact exist cards that dominate it!!

Come on, you're not up against queens every time
I'm talking about how much you can profit on average


and I guess 'rilla suggests that jacks are not easy to play
meh they're not too hard as I've found out... you just want to see all low cards or a jack on the flop

I mean the value of betting a queen high flop may be dubious

{This post has been removed}

'RILLA'S TOP TEN EASIEST HANDS TO PLAY

AA
KK
TT
99
88
77
66
55
44
33


Discuss.

Not so 'rilla.
Easiest hands to play are 94 93 72 84 off suit all etc fold preflop. (and yes i know the positional issue about poker and these hands)
As for the rip arguement.
His style is aggressive and thus when his style works he can defend it, and quite rightly. As to the helmuth etc arguement. Yes all top pros have good track records. I dont like helmuth simply becasue i dont think he sometimes know when hes beat, and anything that isnt 'by my book' is poor poker isnt necessarily the right attitude to have (it certainly has its positives though)
Thus maybe we might say the same about rip who plays using the 'rippy book of poker' (of which i am a student) are both right or wrong? I dont care whos right, i just read their posts and strategies and hope to fuck i dont end up playing poker against em.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

'RILLA'S TOP TEN EASIEST HANDS TO PLAY

AA
KK
TT
99
88
77
66
55
44
33


Discuss.

Not so 'rilla.
Easiest hands to play are 94 93 72 84 off suit all etc fold preflop. (and yes i know the positional issue about poker and these hands)

I raise.

Pocket pairs play on the same stream of though as these hands (preflop is simply one demensional, call) but have more natural value to them. No set, no bet on the flop. Even if you hit an overpair with 77, you can play by this rule. So where you would merely dump 94o/s preflop, you would merely call with 77 and know what flop you want to see. And in terms of difficult in playing tough flops like K7 J:spades: when you hold 77, you could make a parrallel situation where you gold 94o in the bb and flop two pair or trips (and will never have position).

-'rilla

Originally Posted by iopq

"- AK pairs an A or K on the flop less often then JJ is an overpair to the flop, but it is also a stronger hand."
Untrue
imagine the following board:
777Ax
anyone with an ace will split the pot because the kicker no longer matters

now imagine
777T9
jacks will win the pot from someone holding a ten or a nine precisely because it's an overpair

there is no situation where you could say that the TPTK is a stronger hand than an overpair
compare:
25T flop AT has TPTK
JJ is an overpair

there is no flop where TPTK is stronger than an overpair barring draws

Let's try to keep tripped flops out of the discussion because they are incredibly rare. Sure, if the flop comes 777, JJ is only behind 7x, AA, KK, QQ.

Obviously, on any given board an overpair is a stronger hand then TPTK. Sorry, but AK on an A62 board looks nicer then JJ on a 962 board. If you have JJ as an overpair, you are still very vulnerable to QQ, KK, and AA, plus any 2pair/set hands. If AK pairs, you don't even have to worry about an overpair (unless of course the K pairs against AA). Generally speaking, I feel much more confident holding AK on an Axx or Kxx board then JJ on a rag board. I'm not saying that TPTK is a better hand then overpair.

- Lukie

Also, holding JJ as an overpair on the flop is vulnerable to any Q, K, or A on the turn or river.

- Lukie

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

JJ totally sucks

play it like deuces unless you are in a heads up situation

12 overcards ? count me out of that shit

I even have a shirt that says ' I HATE JACKS' that I bought at Commerce

probably my least favorite hand next to A/9

I agree that JJ is difficult to play. Our http://www.flopturnriver.com/essays_pairs.html page shows that if things go to the river there is a 76% chance that at least 1 of the 12 overs will show up on board.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Also, holding JJ as an overpair on the flop is vulnerable to any Q, K, or A on the turn or river.

- Lukie

Yeah, but TPTK is vulnerable to me hitting a set and taking your entire stack if you like it too much.

Anyway, an overpair might get paid off more often. I mean, someone holding AT would be happy about a 29T flop against a preflop raiser
but not TOO happy about a 29A flop against a preflop raiser

Why someone would call a preflop raise with AT is outside the scope of this discussion.

Note that AKs gets weaker against a ton of people in the hand since to make the nuts it has to catch THREE cards for a straight, full house, flush, quads or royal flush
So all the good flops against several opponents are long-shots

You make three of a kind aces or kings or better on the flop only slightly more than 2% of the time

Jacks can catch just a jack for the top set


Also, a flop like JKK is very bad for the guy with AK if I'm holding jacks

A lot of these things apply to pocket pairs, but jacks are not the dominated pair at all often and are the overpair to the flop more often
That's where you find that extra value
You see people post their top hands including pretty low pairs in them
Jacks are even better than 55! Who knew!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

'RILLA'S TOP TEN EASIEST HANDS TO PLAY

AA
KK
TT
99
88
77
66
55
44
33


Discuss.

-'rilla

I think you take out TT and replace with 22 for easiest hands to play.....TT can still sometimes look pretty good as an overpair and can be hard to get away from sometimes......

eh..my easiest hands to play are 2/7 and 2/8 and 3/8 =\

but i agree with 'rilla...QQ and JJ at times can be great and other times can get you into a lot of trouble. AA and KK are solid no doubt, and low pp's are very very easy to play because you can call the pfr with em and lay em down with ease if you don't hit the flop. bobby, i agree and disagree because 10/10 to me doesnt look like that pretty of an overpair, and 22 is also in that same boat as all the other low pp's.. just my opinion.

Originally Posted by BobbySalami

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

'RILLA'S TOP TEN EASIEST HANDS TO PLAY

AA
KK
TT
99
88
77
66
55
44
33


Discuss.

-'rilla

I think you take out TT and replace with 22 for easiest hands to play.....TT can still sometimes look pretty good as an overpair and can be hard to get away from sometimes......

22 is clearly the most difficult set to play. So if it comes down to learning how to play TT for a set or learning how to play 22 as a set, I'll stick with TT. But I really don't think it's an issue.

-'rilla

I think I make the most of my money playing jacks vs. tens

Because some people play tens like they were jacks
So if someone is about as confident about their hand as I am I think "tens or AK" if they are more confident I think "uh oh overpair "