what pre-flop situations should you call/fold ???

Hey people, brand new to this forum. Looks great! Here is my question:

If the pot is at 100,i have a 3d/6h, and i have to call a raise of 25 to see the flop. should I call so i can see the flop or should i just fold? what if the pot is at 1000 and i have to call a bet of 100 to see the flop? is there ever a time where you should call with cards like that or should you always fold? I have read that you should only call with "premium starting hands" (AA,AK,AJ, KK,QQ, JJ etc....) no matter what the size of the bet/pot is. Is this true? thanks alot everyone. all your answers are greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by diowk

Hey people, brand new to this forum. Looks great! Here is my question:

If the pot is at 100,i have a 3d/6h, and i have to call a raise of 25 to see the flop. should I call so i can see the flop or should i just fold? what if the pot is at 1000 and i have to call a bet of 100 to see the flop? is there ever a time where you should call with cards like that or should you always fold? I have read that you should only call with "premium starting hands" (AA,AK,AJ, KK,QQ, JJ etc....) no matter what the size of the bet/pot is. Is this true? thanks alot everyone. all your answers are greatly appreciated.

OK ... this is my first "answer" post and I am by no means a great poker player. But I would ask myself (if I were in your shoes) ... if I call to see the flop ... what is the best possible outcome for me? Then ask yourself, if it is less than PERFECT (i.e. quads or maybe a boat) what kind of hand will I have and what will it beat (probably not much). Then consider the odds on flopping or hitting that original perfect hand. They are quite low.

Therefore, I fold it ... no need to see the flop ... cause most likely I will hit a crappy hand at best which will be 2 pair and 2 low pair at that.

awesome. thanks for your input! what if you get a low card and a high card like A5o? or any two cards of the same suit? personally i like to call to see the flop when i have two suited cards but maybe thats a flaw in my game. not sure...

{ moved to newbie land }

#1 newbie mistake - loving Axs and Kxs
#2 newbie mistake - playing junk because it's cheap
#3 newbie mistake - trying to figure out what junk they can "call" with. In other words Calling too much.
#4 is a lack of understanding/patience regarding the fact that poker is played over hundreds of THOUSANDS of hands, not 1 hour, 4 hours, 3 months. In other words - massive impatience (which makes you want to make mistake 1, 2, and 3).

Here's a rule for you that will help solve 2 and 3. If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

SOME people know how to play any 2 cards (or sub-premium cards) for geniune profits. But they have alot more experience that you. So You shouldn't. But if you feel froggy one day and want to play them in late position then do what I say.

Here's a funny story about that. When I was teaching a guy to play poker online (Mannerboy is his name) I was letting him play the begging of a tourney for me with my wife (because I had to run out for a bit). Anyway they were "practicing" with my account on a NL200 table. At this point Mannerboy had never played anything above about NL25 or NL50 maybe. He was watching the table, my wife was telling him what I had (he thought I had left already).

Anyway so I get 48 and my wife tells him 48 (i'm on the button) and a couple people limp. He jokingly tells my wife "Raise 20" knowing she would never do that. But I heard him so I reached over and rasied it up to $20. At this point he freaks out and starts yelling fold fold fold.

2 people called and the pot is about $65. He screaming fold. the other 2 people check I bet $50, they fold. I took the hand and told him to stop screwing around, and went to my appointment.

The point here is that if you're going to be an idiot, do it with a big raise, not a stupid call.

gl

btw Mannerboy is now a poker monster and makes his living with online poker

wow. thats a way better response than i was expecting. thanks! btw, how much do you charge for those online lessons? i might be interested.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Here's a rule for you that will help solve 2 and 3. If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

The problem with rule #1 is that it implies there is a rule #2.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Here's a rule for you that will help solve 2 and 3. If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

The problem with having rules in poker is that you have rules.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

WTF????????? Ok i have kept my comments away from you AOK, and i've bit my tongue on many many issues regarding you. I'm done. WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting???? Are you seriously recommending ANYONE, let alone a beginner do this??? There is a reason I don't post very many "educational" threads, and that reason is because I am humble enough to say i'm not that great. In every one of your posts I read you put yourself off to all these new kids as some sort of poker god who can take their game to the top. And then you proceded to give them BS advice that uses alot of fancy words to make them feel good about themselves and their play. And through no fault of their own because noone stands up and yells BS, all of the innocent new kids believe you. So its time to face up to the facts, you aren't a poker god. You aren't. Accept it. I'm not either so don't try and pull up anything on me. But please dear god at least have the fucking courtesy to not tell people that your advice is 100% correct and that they "should always listen to you." Mainly because...its not.

My apologies to diowk for hijacking this thread. Note to you and all other beginners. No matter what anyone tells you, a single person's analysis is not necessarily the best. Diowk, save your money on lessons lol, all the info you need can be found on here for free. Best way to do so, post your hand histories, and when someone gives you advice, debate it and question it. Never just accept it. By questioning the "why" of poker, you learn poker.

Xianti, if you must give me a strike for this, go ahead and do so, i'll take one for the team to hopefully stop one beginner from falling into a death trap.

No matter what anyone tells you, a single person's analysis is not necessarily the best.

There will never be 2 same situations in poker EVER! I am not by any means even a novice at poker, but knowing some numbers ( Please correct me if I am wrong) 2,598,960 differnt poker hands. So the same cards, players, pot ANYTHING players moods WILL NEVER be the same. As a general rule go off of what you all ready know. Take no advice as a "SET IN STONE" Attitude. Yes you may have seen ( Insert Poker Star from TV ) go all in Pre-flop with AK. That does not mean do it. Yes it may be the right call, but then it may not be.. You have to think for your self, and that is what is most appealing about poker.

... Take any and all information from any given site or book into thought, then put it into your own practice. Implement, not live (play) by it.

If the pot is 1000 and you have to call 100 to see the flop then it entirely depends on stack sizes, but in most cases you would see a flop.

even with 3 6 , I dont think you are EVER so far behind that you cant accept 10:1 so if that 100 puts you allin then you should never fold.
Certainly if you are against just one other player andyou are holding unpaired cards you should usually be happy with anything better than 2:1 if it puts you allin.

BUT,

In the vast majoity of cases that isnt going to happen.

You should be playing with fairly big stack so just start playing Tight and Aggressive and see where it takes you. Preflop, if the pot is small and your stack is big then when in doubt, fold.

There isnt much you should be calling preflop except small-medium pocket pairs for small raises.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting????

Amen. That's a very nice PR post Aok made there, probably made you feel real good, enticed you to take his lessons. The biggest merit there is however not how to play poker, but it's a good example of a good PR post.

First giving advice with authority. Then backing it up with a nice case-specific example. Which also with some subtlety plugged the fact that he gives lessons. Making the example very vivid, drawing you in. Adding some "drama".. the guy was screaming "fold fold"! And then ofcourse the happy end, where he took the pot, and most of all, the guy who took his lessons became a professional poker player. Nicely written indeed.

I have to say almost all of Aoks low limit advice is very good. I was slightly confused by why you would want to raise 10BB with crap just because you feel like it.

Aok, you always seem to stress discipline and patience. Perhaps its best to leave out the 74o raises for beginners.

Yes raising is better than calling. No raising is not better than folding when you have crap and have no reason to raise other than "for a laugh".

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Originally Posted by aokrongly

If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

WTF????????? Ok i have kept my comments away from you AOK, and i've bit my tongue on many many issues regarding you. I'm done. WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting???? Are you seriously recommending ANYONE, let alone a beginner do this???

This response is unfair to AOK. You have taken his statement completely out of context. AOK clearly stated that you should always fold your crappy cards. The statement you quoted was advice for if you for some reason just think you absolutely have to play those crappy cards once in a while, you might as well do it in a way that has value rather than getting yourself trapped into losing a lot of chip when dominated.

I don't agree with everything AOK posts, but his system has worked well for him and many others. I don't think his system is ideal by any means, but it may be ideal for the beginner. And odds are I'm wrong anyway because he has way more experience than I do. Whether his posts are part PR or not, I don't know, but I do know from my time at FTR that AOK has spent a lot of time trying to help other players with informative posts that reflect what he thinks is the best advice for other players. What else can you ask?

No one is an absolute authority on poker. Disagreement and discussion of ideas are good things. But it really bothers me when someone's words are lifted out of context to appear to mean the opposite of what they intended. That's no better than corrupt political propaganda.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting????

Amen. That's a very nice PR post Aok made there, probably made you feel real good, enticed you to take his lessons. The biggest merit there is however not how to play poker, but it's a good example of a good PR post.

First giving advice with authority. Then backing it up with a nice case-specific example. Which also with some subtlety plugged the fact that he gives lessons. Making the example very vivid, drawing you in. Adding some "drama".. the guy was screaming "fold fold"! And then ofcourse the happy end, where he took the pot, and most of all, the guy who took his lessons became a professional poker player. Nicely written indeed.

Thank god I'm not the only person intelligent enough to pick up on this. NH sir.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

This response is unfair to AOK. You have taken his statement completely out of context. AOK clearly stated that you should always fold your crappy cards. The statement you quoted was advice for if you for some reason just think you absolutely have to play those crappy cards once in a while, you might as well do it in a way that has value rather than getting yourself trapped into losing a lot of chip when dominated.

Stop blindly defending him. I don't care the reasoning behind the advice, its still horrible, there are ZERO, i repeat ZERO situations where doing this would be appropriate. There is zero value in this and there never will be.

I don't agree with everything AOK posts, but his system has worked well for him and many others. I don't think his system is ideal by any means, but it may be ideal for the beginner. And odds are I'm wrong anyway because he has way more experience than I do. Whether his posts are part PR or not, I don't know, but I do know from my time at FTR that AOK has spent a lot of time trying to help other players with informative posts that reflect what he thinks is the best advice for other players. What else can you ask?

He doesn't have a system. It hasn't worked for anyone else. His posts are all PR. He hasn't spent any time actually trying to help FTR players. He has a complex with feeding his own ego for whatever purpose, re-read Jackvance's post regarding this. And his posts aren't informative, in fact almost all of his advice I had read is just dead wrong. Why do I care? I think possibly the worst thing a person can do in a forum like this is give incorrect advice while convincing everybody that the advice is coming from an informative source. What can I ask? I can ask that the blind don't try to lead the blind.

No one is an absolute authority on poker. Disagreement and discussion of ideas are good things. But it really bothers me when someone's words are lifted out of context to appear to mean the opposite of what they intended. That's no better than corrupt political propaganda.

I'm sorry AOK is a beautiful caring wonderful human being who only cares about the welfare of the beginners circle. You should take his lesson, wink wink, hint hint. Open up your eyes, you're being scammed.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Originally Posted by aokrongly

If it's an unraised pot and you are holding less than premium cards and want to play (in late position) then raise it 10xBB and then bet 10XBB on the flop regardless of what it is. If you're willing to do that then at least you have a chance.

WTF????????? Ok i have kept my comments away from you AOK, and i've bit my tongue on many many issues regarding you. I'm done. WTF kind of bullshit advice are you posting???? Are you seriously recommending ANYONE, let alone a beginner do this???

I'll not claim that I can prove that what Aok suggested here is good advice or bad advice but to say that it is " bullshit advice" is rediculous. I have on personally seen Fnord, ilikeaces86 and Gabe (who are all very respected and winning players) post the exact same advice on these boards. Many people believe this move can be +EV when used in the right situation so I think for you to jump all over it like that without any justification is disgraceful.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

In every one of your posts I read you put yourself off to all these new kids as some sort of poker god who can take their game to the top.

Plain wrong. Alot of the reason that you feel this is because his writing gives off a certain air of confidence, thats because he's a good writer, good on him.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And then you proceded to give them BS advice that uses alot of fancy words to make them feel good about themselves and their play.

To generalise all the things Aok has posted on FTR and collectivly call them bullshit is IMO just a stupid statement. I read all of your responces on the Rippy etc. fiasco and really I thought you were a far more logical and coherent poster then what this seems to show.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And through no fault of their own because noone stands up and yells BS, all of the innocent new kids believe you.

...like I did. Now I live off playing 200NL. I'm sure if I try hard enough around here I can find you at least 4 other people who feel the same way. Aok was ~>40% of the reason I win at poker. Yet some how you wish to convince the readers of this thread that his advice is "bullshit". I followed his advice to the letter and I won, longterm. It works, FACT. If you want me to go look for those 4 other people I will?

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

But please dear god at least have the fucking courtesy to not tell people that your advice is 100% correct and that they "should always listen to you."

Sorry where did you see this posted? Did you just make that little quote up?

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Diowk, save your money on lessons lol, all the info you need can be found on here for free.

For the record I agree. I remember at one point Fnord offered on here to review peoples HH's in return for money. Why don't you go berate him?

Just to state this because I think some people seem to be imagining things:

At no point in this thread did Aokrongly offer anyone lessons or ask anyone for anthing like money or even praise. The one time in the past when Aok did actually offer lessons THEY WERE FREE


Lamb, not for one second do I believe that your problem with Aok is anything to do with his advice or his posts in the beginners forum. I think you should keep your (non poker related) personal opinions of people off the boards and stop them from influencing the things you post in these threads.

Originally Posted by jackvance

The biggest merit there is however not how to play poker, but it's a good example of a good PR post.

PR for what? Is the guy running for president of FTR or something? So tell me, am I right in thinking that you posted this response because you have a problem with the guy because he is a good writer? And please make sure you read the part I have bolded above, I don't think you have been around long enough on these forums to realise that Aok's lessons were free. I am in no way trying to suggest that this means you are not entitled to an opinion.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I don't care the reasoning behind the advice, its still horrible, there are ZERO, i repeat ZERO situations where doing this would be appropriate. There is zero value in this and there never will be.

IMO this is wrong.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

He doesn't have a system. It hasn't worked for anyone else.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

He hasn't spent any time actually trying to help FTR players.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I'm sorry AOK is a beautiful caring wonderful human being who only cares about the welfare of the beginners circle. You should take his lesson, wink wink, hint hint. Open up your eyes, you're being scammed.

Sarcasm won't get us far. Reread the bolded portion of my previous post please.

All I can say lambchop is you sure know how to stay on message. All your responses to my last post simply demonstrate the truth of what I said and that you didn't read what I said with any intention to understand what I was saying or to do anything other than attack AOK or anyone who points out why you are out of line. If you are going to disagree with someone, at least have the sense to respond to what they say, and not attack your imaginary vision of what they think derived from a few words or sentences taken completely out of context. You are just making an ass of yourself and losing any credibility you might have had.

*waiting for the flames ...
and the thread to be locked*

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At no point in this thread did Aokrongly offer anyone lessons or ask anyone for anthing like money or even praise. The one time in the past when Aok did actually offer lessons THEY WERE FREE

Aok could be a poker genius, or a great teacher at poker. It is hard to say b/c everything he says is clouded in great eloquence. For example the "19 hands". A catching phrase, will entice almost every newcomer at FTR, because it promises an easy system to play good poker instead of all these confusing (though very truthful) "depends" you get. In practice however, I can't believe the 19 hands could help anyone beyond the stage of being so new that they don't even know simple hand values. There's a strategy article here on FTR about starting hands that already gives way more useful info than 19 simple starting hands.

About him not outright plugging his lessons. That's the great part of his post. No he doesn't say it outright, but the point of his post is simply "follow my lessons and you'll become a succesful poker player". Yes, he does make a very smooth trangression, starting from the topic at hand, then oozing into a story on this tangent, introducing the fact that he teaches, and finally closing with the idea that his lessons make great poker players.

To think that because he doesn't say it outright, he isn't just plugging his lessons is a bit naieve imho. This really is marketing 101.


Personally, whenever I see more eloquence than practical proof of expertise, in whatever field this may be, I'm always gonna be very skeptical.

Irish,

I'll just post this in summary rather than make another quote by quote response. Yes i haven't been around that long, I understand that, and regardless of if his lessons are free, that is not the point. The point is that I completely disagree with any "system" being preached and any advice that dictates there being any sort of rules in poker. And actually my problem with him is his posts in the beginners' forums. Yes I first read them after hearing other issues about him which I stayed out of. But that all aside I disagree with his posts completely. The biggest problem I have with his posts is that they insuate there there are RULES and STANDARD actions to follow. There aren't. To say that there is, is just plain wrong.

When i first found FTR i did so because I was looking for an easy system that would teach me how to not lose my money at online poker. It took me months to realize that there is none. In fact I will say the biggest mistake I made when I first started playing is believing that there was. I'm not trying to spearhead an anti-AOK riot here, I'm simply trying to put across my opinions regarding this issue. The reason I have a problem with AOK's articles is that the confidence they put off is misleading. He has said in posts that readers should "always listen to him," if you really want to me to dig up the quote I will. I have no problem with anyone posting advice, but I do have a problem with someone posting advice and passing it off as "the set-in-stone way to play poker." All of my opinions are based on that, period, believe me or not.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At no point in this thread did Aokrongly offer anyone lessons or ask anyone for anthing like money or even praise. The one time in the past when Aok did actually offer lessons THEY WERE FREE

Aok could be a poker genius, or a great teacher at poker. It is hard to say b/c everything he says is clouded in great eloquence. For example the "19 hands". A catching phrase, will entice almost every newcomer at FTR, because it promises an easy system to play good poker instead of all these confusing (though very truthful) "depends" you get. In practice however, I can't believe the 19 hands could help anyone beyond the stage of being so new that they don't even know simple hand values. There's a strategy article here on FTR about starting hands that already gives way more useful info than 19 simple starting hands.

About him not outright plugging his lessons. That's the great part of his post. No he doesn't say it outright, but the point of his post is simply "follow my lessons and you'll become a succesful poker player". Yes, he does make a very smooth trangression, starting from the topic at hand, then oozing into a story on this tangent, introducing the fact that he teaches, and finally closing with the idea that his lessons make great poker players.

To think that because he doesn't say it outright, he isn't just plugging his lessons is a bit naieve imho. This really is marketing 101.


Personally, whenever I see more eloquence than practical proof of expertise, in whatever field this may be, I'm always gonna be very skeptical.

You sir, are awesome.

Edit: Actually i almost want to delete my responses because this says everything i'm thinking. Very good analysis.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

At no point in this thread did Aokrongly offer anyone lessons or ask anyone for anthing like money or even praise. The one time in the past when Aok did actually offer lessons THEY WERE FREE

WTF is he promoting? Are you trying to tell me that he is trying to con the whole of FTR into giving him hours of teaching beginners FOR FREE!!?? Stop and think here for a second. That is like someone coming up to your house and confincing you to let them paint it FOR FREE. They do a good job then go home and somehow you feel conned or fooled by this person.

I'm sorry but if thats what you believe then I just can't argue with that.

I am the proof that the "19 hands" strategy works at low stakes poker (up to 100NL). If you want I can post results etc. here for you?

And plus to the best of my knowledge I can say that Aok doesn't give lessons anymore and if you PMed him and asked him for lessons (assuming this thread hadn't happened) he would say no because he hasn't got enough time.

Wheeeeee!

If the pot is at 100,i have a 3d/6h, and i have to call a raise of 25 to see the flop. should I call so i can see the flop or should i just fold?

Personally, I'd fold. You have to hit that flop really hard, and if you hit it that hard you're probably not getting paid off. Maybe on the rare occasion you make the baby straight.

what if the pot is at 1000 and i have to call a bet of 100 to see the flop?

I'm seeing a flop this time, but I'm not blowing money on a one-pair hand.

is there ever a time where you should call with cards like that or should you always fold?

There's a few times. When you feel like you can see a really cheap showdown if you hit a pair. Where you feel like your implied odds are huge if you hit a hand. Where you feel like you can fold your opponent after the flop.

I have read that you should only call with "premium starting hands" (AA,AK,AJ, KK,QQ, JJ etc....) no matter what the size of the bet/pot is. Is this true?

No. You should be raising (most of) those hands and often folding some of them (AJ). You can get away with playing a lot of other hands in unraised multi-way pots, like suited connectors and small pairs. But generally these don't play well in raised pots.

I've stated my opinion, Jackvance stated it better, i'm not gonna continue in a huge spiral of controversy, i'm done. Take it for what its worth.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I'm sorry but if thats what you believe then I just can't argue with that.

The guy asked how much he had to pay for lessons. It should be obvious that if you can make a name for yourself, money will follow. I mean, he's writing a book too isn't he? Probably not to hand it out for free.

I was glad to read lambchop's post here, ever since the very beginning I got here, Aok's posts and his "system" have ticked off my BS alarm and made me feel in bizarro land for being the only one who seemed to notice.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

SOME people know how to play any 2 cards (or sub-premium cards) for geniune profits. But they have alot more experience that you. So You shouldn't.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

The point here is that if you're going to be an idiot, do it with a big raise, not a stupid call.

I cant see how you disagree with either of these points but fair enough. I dont know if you misunderstood or if it was deliberate so ive bolded the bits that I think are important. Maybe it was slightly dangerous to even mention raising with any 2 in a beginner thread but if youve read any of aoks posts you will know they he stresses the patience and discipline to wait for the good hands.

Jackvance, the "19 hands" post explains all of the core hands you should be playing to beat low stakes poker, and explains in some detail how you need to be playing them. Yes it is for begginners, that is why it was posted (for free) in the begginner forum. I understand that you are now a LAGging it up at the 10NL tables and making moves but sooner or later you are going to realise that for the vast majority of times at these stakes, what makes the money is simply getting into pots with better hands than the other guy. If you have a problem with the guys strategies then post something about poker rather than making some bizzare claim about him advertising for people to pay for lessons when he hasnt even mentioned it.

Lamb. There are a few simple rules you can use to become at least slightly profitable in low stakes poker. Rules like starting requirements. Not playing KJ to a raise. No getting your stack in with TPTK. Not calling pot sized bets with draws.
Obviously once you learn where it is right to break these rules you will win more and more up to the point where you are hardly ever following them but you gotta start somewhere right?
Im pretty sure your outburst isnt about poker strategy and even if it was you could try posting a civilized response to it.

Most of AOKs posts have been very good and I would advise any begginner comming to this site to read through all of them but I would also advise them to question everything they read here and to ask about it if they dont understand and argue if they disagree.

Lamb, let me explain please..

I know there are no set in stone rules, so do you and so does Aok. But my point here is that when a beginner first starts off in poker without a clue it help him immensley to have some guidelines to follow so that he can float a bit. Thats all Aok does, dispense guidelines.

Consider this for a second. Lets say I'm teaching a new guy how to play and I tell him that every time he bets the flop and turnwith TPTK, gets called on the flop and raised on the turn - he should fold. Every time!! No exceptions. (This is because at low stakes being raised on the turn usually signifies that you're up against a set etc.) You probably think thats a horrible thing to tell a beginner. Your teachings for him would be full of "it depends" on a load of different things. Thats fair enough, you're right.. wheather he should fold or not does depend on loads of things...

BUT

If he does like I say and folds always will he miss out on a lot of value? Yes he will. Will he be beating the game optimally? No he wont. But over thousands of hands will that turn fold be a clear-cut easy to follow +EV guideline that he can build a solid, optimal poker game on? YES, thats what it is. Its a foundation to stop a beginner drowning in the deep end. You think for the rest of his life he will fold every TPTK hand he has when he gets raised on the turn card? No way, slowly but surely he'll see places and players where perhaps he shouldn't fold and his game will gradually improve and become more varied and "it depends" based and closer to optimal. But had he not had my guideline at the start he would have (probably) put some money in Party and lost it all because he had no clue wtf to do in which situation.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I've stated my opinion, Jackvance stated it better, i'm not gonna continue in a huge spiral of controversy, i'm done. Take it for what its worth.

Please just read my previous reply and then thats it, i'm done too.

Originally Posted by Pelion

but I would also advise them to question everything they read here and to ask about it if they dont understand and argue if they disagree.

bingo. The problem is when something is posted in a way that doesn't influences anyone to do this. That is my whole point, if you boil everything down that is all i'm trying to say. My problem with AOK is that he writes as if his tips are non-debatable. Why he does this....what his motives are...i don't know and frankly do not care. And if u want the psychology behind my post, here it is - spark up debate. Yep thats it, period. Without debate, noone gains anything. If AOK truely believes his own advice why does he spent 50% of his post trying to enstill his own creditibility into the reader. All this serves to do is make the reader think that his advice is the end-all of advice. So i'm done with this, the end point, debate everything, don't take one guy's word for a fact. Thats it.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I'm sorry but if thats what you believe then I just can't argue with that.

The guy asked how much he had to pay for lessons.

So Aok should be held responsibe for the questions people ask him?

Anyway let me answer his questions again: I doubt Aok will have the time to give you lessons at the moment, but if he does they will be FREE.

Originally Posted by jackvance

It should be obvious that if you can make a name for yourself, money will follow.

Not if you don't ask for it.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I mean, he's writing a book too isn't he? Probably not to hand it out for free.

It could possibly go out for free yes. Thats being considered.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

And if u want the psychology behind my post, here it is - spark up debate. Yep thats it, period.

Then cut out the swearing/abuse and actually try some debating.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Without debate, noone gains anything.

I agree. But your attitude and your post wont lead to debate. It will lead to a thread full of flaming where any useful content is lost beneath posts full of ......well .... not much.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Lamb, let me explain please..

I know there are no set in stone rules, so do you and so does Aok. But my point here is that when a beginner first starts off in poker without a clue it help him immensley to have some guidelines to follow so that he can float a bit. Thats all Aok does, dispense guidelines.

Consider this for a second. Lets say I'm teaching a new guy how to play and I tell him that every time he bets the flop and turnwith TPTK, gets called on the flop and raised on the turn - he should fold. Every time!! No exceptions. (This is because at low stakes being raised on the turn usually signifies that you're up against a set etc.) You probably think thats a horrible thing to tell a beginner. Your teachings for him would be full of "it depends" on a load of different things. Thats fair enough, you're right.. wheather he should fold or not does depend on loads of things...

BUT

If he does like I say and folds always will he miss out on a lot of value? Yes he will. Will he be beating the game optimally? No he wont. But over thousands of hands will that turn fold be a clear-cut easy to follow +EV guideline that he can build a solid, optimal poker game on? YES, thats what it is. Its a foundation to stop a beginner drowning in the deep end. You think for the rest of his life he will fold every TPTK hand he has when he gets raised on the turn card? No way, slowly but surely he'll see places and players where perhaps he shouldn't fold and his game will gradually improve and become more varied and "it depends" based and closer to optimal. But had he not had my guideline at the start he would have (probably) put some money in Party and lost it all because he had no clue wtf to do in which situation.

I understand what you are saying Irish. However, there is a difference between the following two statements:

A. As a rule, when you have TPTK on the turn and you are raised, you are most likely beat, you should fold.

B. You have TPTK on the turn, your opp. raises you. At the stakes you are playing, this is a safe spot to fold without a very good read. Your opp. could have a set, or two pair. As you develop in your game, you may find that folding here is not the correct play. There are many situations where certain players will raise you here with hands you beat. However, until you have played enough hands to be able to spot these situations, it is a good idea for you to avoid marginal spots like this and find better spots to get your money in.

Do you see where I am going with this? Statement A locks a player into a way of thinking. Statement B inspires thought and theory at the same time as protecting the beginner from losing all of their money. My problem with AOK telling a beginner that as a rule if he wants to play a marginal hand in late position he should raise 10x then bet huge on the flop again, is that its written in format A. It doesn't tell the player why, it doesn't say how this gains value. Frankly I would like to know how, because the only hands calling you have you crushed.

Advice given in format A is very dangerous and when taken the wrong way, can hurt a player more than it helps. Advice given in format B develops a player's rational thinking and will help them in the long run.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

If AOK truely believes his own advice why does he spent 50% of his post trying to enstill his own creditibility into the reader. All this serves to do is make the reader think that his advice is the end-all of advice.

Exactly. There's not a shadow of a doubt he is making money off of poker lessons, one way or the other. It simply would make absolutely no sense the way he writes his posts otherwise. I mean, why would he "as an aside" mention he teaches too and apparently has made atleast one "monster poker player" this way? For the heck of it? To brag? Most of his post above is framed to make himself seem some sort of poker authority. The advice-part is rather minimal and trivial. Why on earth would he write like that if just wanted to give information out of altruism? If that's what he wanted, he would make posts like most people here do.

Now, ok, I grew out of the merit of his advice in about a week on FTR. That he poses as an authority on this advice then, well, whatever. I ignore it. But when he blatantly plugs his own teachings to newcomers as if they are god's gift to poker, then it's simply time someone steps up and gives another perspective.

It could possibly go out for free yes. Thats being considered.

Irish, are you somehow affiliated with Aok?

I just want to say that I'm happy to see that this thread has actually become a reasonable, more respectful discussion.

Also, lambchop, I want to point out that I do respect your view and agree to some extent with some of what you say, and am happy to see that your recent posts in this thread have been much more respectful and conducive to productive argument. I never took offense with your opinion, just with turning what people say on its head by taking it out of context.

Lamb,

I see what you are saying and I'm glad we are understanding each other. I agree that encouraging thought is positive and I believe I've argued everything you said that I didn't agree with.

I also wan't to say that I believe you argued most of your points well. gg

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

I understand what you are saying Irish. However, there is a difference between the following two statements:

A. As a rule, when you have TPTK on the turn and you are raised, you are most likely beat, you should fold.

B. You have TPTK on the turn, your opp. raises you. At the stakes you are playing, this is a safe spot to fold without a very good read. Your opp. could have a set, or two pair. As you develop in your game, you may find that folding here is not the correct play. There are many situations where certain players will raise you here with hands you beat. However, until you have played enough hands to be able to spot these situations, it is a good idea for you to avoid marginal spots like this and find better spots to get your money in.

Do you see where I am going with this? Statement A locks a player into a way of thinking. Statement B inspires thought and theory at the same time as protecting the beginner from losing all of their money. My problem with AOK telling a beginner that as a rule if he wants to play a marginal hand in late position he should raise 10x then bet huge on the flop again, is that its written in format A. It doesn't tell the player why, it doesn't say how this gains value. Frankly I would like to know how, because the only hands calling you have you crushed.

Advice given in format A is very dangerous and when taken the wrong way, can hurt a player more than it helps. Advice given in format B develops a player's rational thinking and will help them in the long run.

You cant seriously be suggesting that someone who has decided to put in the time and effort to find FTR because he has decided to really get good at this game will develop a slightly profitable low stakes game and then just stop improving because when he first started he was told not to put his stack in with TPTK. Unless we are talking about someone who is seriously stupid to the point of not having a chance at this game anyway, ANYONE will throw the starting hand chart away at some point once they get comfortable enough with the basics.

Im betting a huge portion of FTR started playing with a starting hand chart telling them what to raise and what was ok to call preflop, and telling them that 2 pair was an ok hand postflop. Im guessing that many of you printed off a pot odds chart.
Id be very suprised if even a small minority of players who have been playing a year or more havnt started throwing in the odd hand or two off the chart by now.
I think a starting hand chart, and a pot odds chart would help anybody sitting in their first poker game. I also think you need to give people WAY more credit if you think they will stick rigidly to the chart for the rest of their life just because someone showed it to them once.

You start with solid rules and then over time you begin to develop a feel for when it is necessary to bend the rules. AOKs rules are clearly intended as a foundation. Thats why they are in the begginner forum.

Originally Posted by jackvance

There's not a shadow of a doubt he is making money off of poker lessons, one way or the other.

I'm not a mod or nothing but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from blatently lying and fabricating information in these forums.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Irish, are you somehow affiliated with Aok?

I'm on the team of people from FTR who are helping him write the book yes. Now I think I see what you are thinking so let me point out that we are helping with this book for no personal gain. I have no financial intrest in the book what so ever.

It's hard to avoid simple rules when first teaching/learning anything which requires a great deal of skill. Poker is like many other things, in that there are basic guidelines which are generally true, and need to be learned, but that have exceptions that can only be learned with experience. I think that the basic guidelines are a good thing, and when teaching a beginner, one should mention that there are exceptions that will be learned later. Teaching all the exceptions right away is just putting too much information on the table at once which can't effectively be used. A few examples from other games ...

In bridge, there are many guidelines that beginners are taught which are usually true but have many exceptions for expert play, such as

Cover an honor with an honor,
When in doubt draw trumps,
Always lead partner's suit.

In chess, one is taught to develop one's pieces as quickly as possible and control the center, but more advanced players learn when plays that take the initiative are superior to developing plays. Among many other exceptions to well known rules are that doubled pawns are not always weak, and rooks do not always belong on the open file.

I think it is wrong to teach simple rules as gospel truth. But I also think it is counter-productive to try to teach the beginner everything at once.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

It's hard to avoid simple rules when first teaching/learning anything which requires a great deal of skill. Poker is like many other things, in that there are basic guidelines which are generally true, and need to be learned, but that have exceptions that can only be learned with experience. I think that the basic guidelines are a good thing, and when teaching a beginner, one should mention that there are exceptions that will be learned later. Teaching all the exceptions right away is just putting too much information on the table at once which can't effectively be used. A few examples from other games ...

In bridge, there are many guidelines that beginners are taught which are usually true but have many exceptions for expert play, such as

Cover an honor with an honor,
When in doubt draw trumps,
Always lead partner's suit.

In chess, one is taught to develop one's pieces as quickly as possible and control the center, but more advanced players learn when plays that take the initiative are superior to developing plays. Among many other exceptions to well known rules are that doubled pawns are not always weak, and rooks do not always belong on the open file.

I think it is wrong to teach simple rules as gospel truth. But I also think it is counter-productive to try to teach the beginner everything at once.

Im a physics student and I tell ya. Every year they tell us that everything weve learned so far is bollocks :/
The thing is what they teach us now is closer to how its ment to be, but if they started us off with quantum mechanics and relativity and stuff when we were 10 I dont think Id have made it this far so they give us the basics first and go into more detail later.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

It's hard to avoid simple rules when first teaching/learning anything which requires a great deal of skill. Poker is like many other things, in that there are basic guidelines which are generally true, and need to be learned, but that have exceptions that can only be learned with experience. I think that the basic guidelines are a good thing, and when teaching a beginner, one should mention that there are exceptions that will be learned later. Teaching all the exceptions right away is just putting too much information on the table at once which can't effectively be used. A few examples from other games ...

In bridge, there are many guidelines that beginners are taught which are usually true but have many exceptions for expert play, such as

Cover an honor with an honor,
When in doubt draw trumps,
Always lead partner's suit.

In chess, one is taught to develop one's pieces as quickly as possible and control the center, but more advanced players learn when plays that take the initiative are superior to developing plays. Among many other exceptions to well known rules are that doubled pawns are not always weak, and rooks do not always belong on the open file.

I think it is wrong to teach simple rules as gospel truth. But I also think it is counter-productive to try to teach the beginner everything at once.

Here is the problem, chess and other games are games of complete information, you have all the information available to you, rules can be made. Poker is a game of incomplete information, because you never have all of the information, you cannot set up rules.

Originally Posted by Pelion

You cant seriously be suggesting that someone who has decided to put in the time and effort to find FTR because he has decided to really get good at this game will develop a slightly profitable low stakes game and then just stop improving because when he first started he was told not to put his stack in with TPTK. Unless we are talking about someone who is seriously stupid to the point of not having a chance at this game anyway, ANYONE will throw the starting hand chart away at some point once they get comfortable enough with the basics.

Im betting a huge portion of FTR started playing with a starting hand chart telling them what to raise and what was ok to call preflop, and telling them that 2 pair was an ok hand postflop. Im guessing that many of you printed off a pot odds chart.
Id be very suprised if even a small minority of players who have been playing a year or more havnt started throwing in the odd hand or two off the chart by now.
I think a starting hand chart, and a pot odds chart would help anybody sitting in their first poker game. I also think you need to give people WAY more credit if you think they will stick rigidly to the chart for the rest of their life just because someone showed it to them once.

You start with solid rules and then over time you begin to develop a feel for when it is necessary to bend the rules. AOKs rules are clearly intended as a foundation. Thats why they are in the begginner forum.

What I am suggesting is that you create a seperate problem when you start with a set of rules. As we know, most of these "rules" get thrown away when u get better at the game. When u condition your mind to follow a set of rules, it is hard to break those rules. That being said, it is more difficult for a player who started playing with a set of concrete rules to develop their game further than someone who was using analytical thinking and questioning things from the start. Why do i know this? I went through the period of trying to break away from the rules and think outside the box. It sucks. Bad. It costs money. It confuses you. But it needs to be done eventually. I would actually venture to say that the players who start with an understanding that the game is not as simple as ABC will go further, faster, and better.

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Here is the problem, chess and other games are games of complete information, you have all the information available to you, rules can be made. Poker is a game of incomplete information, because you never have all of the information, you cannot set up rules.

Odd of you to disagree with me when I am supporting your view. I must disagree as I was speaking of rules for the beginner. Games like bridge, chess, and backgammon, and really any other game of skill are not games of complete information for the beginner, as the beginner does not have access to the complete information. Even a master chess player cannot foresee all the possible repercussions of a move. A beginning chess player has a tiny fraction of the total information available to him because of an incomplete understanding of the game. And I do believe that there are rules to follow in poker. It is a game of information, and making the correct decision on the information available. This does not change just because you can't see your opponent's cards.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Here is the problem, chess and other games are games of complete information, you have all the information available to you, rules can be made. Poker is a game of incomplete information, because you never have all of the information, you cannot set up rules.

Odd of you to disagree with me when I am supporting your view. I must disagree as I was speaking of rules for the beginner. Games like bridge, chess, and backgammon, and really any other game of skill are not games of complete information for the beginner, as the beginner does not have access to the complete information. Even a master chess player cannot foresee all the possible repercussions of a move. A beginning chess player has a tiny fraction of the total information available to him because of an incomplete understanding of the game. And I do believe that there are rules to follow in poker. It is a game of information, and making the correct decision on the information available. This does not change just because you can't see your opponent's cards.

Just thought I'd throw something in here. A beginning chess player has the same information given from the board as any other player. Just because they don't pick up on things or intuitively have a feel for certain things in the position doesn't mean that they're not there.

This is for Jackvance. Jack, I don't disgree with all your comments (the slanderous ones excepted obv) but I'd just like to point out that the difference between your tone, and your didactic approach to beginner's poker in your FTR posts, and AOK's tone, is that you've played only a couple of thousand hands yet STILL spout off like you're the ultimate knowledge base.

As I have stated before, you are an excellent and instinctive mathematics brain but, as it stands, an extremely green and naive poker player and, whether you like it or not, will be for some time to come.

Lambchop, I sort of know where you're coming from and I'm a HUGE admirer of your contribution to FTR, but I think you're venting a slightly blinkered personal prejudice and I wish you could be a bit more even-handed about it.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by jackvance

There's not a shadow of a doubt he is making money off of poker lessons, one way or the other.

I'm not a mod or nothing but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from blatently lying and fabricating information in these forums.

Your words that he isn't have no more credibility than jackvance's saying that he is.

AOK reminds me of a cult leader. He preaches to the naive and inexperienced. He presents his information from a perceived position of authority yet is able to relate his messages in a way that appeals to them and speaks on their level. This wouldn't be much of an issue to me if I didn't find such serious flaws in his "teachings." The players in the beginner's forum are drinking the kool-aid that they think will make them poker immortals, but in reality will only keep them bottom feeding at micro stakes.

There is plenty of flawed advice in the forums. I have contributed to it myself. The nature of poker makes for imperfect advice. It's not so much that I disagree with AOK's generally weak-tight/passive advice so much as that I see so many new players blindly following it and defending it. Fot totally new players I think his advice is o.k. When I started playing I used a starting hand chart. I played tight. I played weakly. I played passively. I managed to make money. It wasn't because I was becoming a better poker player though. I was simply because my weak/tight/passive play allowed me to largely ignore the intellectual side of poker that might get me into trouble and instead just played cards with fewer mistakes than my opponents.

I played that way for too long and regret it. I progressed much slower than I could have and much slower than I was capable of. I realize that everyone has to start somewhere, but it seems that many of the newer players are languishing when they're capable of progressing more quickly. It is my opinion, and a sentiment that other, more experienced, players have also shared with me, that AOK's advice is contributing to this. I honestly cringe at some of the things I read. I'm sure the advice is given with the best of intentions and I commend AOK for taking the time to talk with new players and offer advice. He speaks to an audience that the most successful players tend to ignore.

That brings me to the second part of the problem. The better players aren't taking the time to help the less experienced. I know I don't. Not that I am a highly successful high-stakes player with decades of experience, but I know enough to contribute more than I do. No one has the obligation to help another player, but in the spirit of the community (which I assume is why we are all here) they should at least occasionally take the time to try and help. Instead though, many of the more experienced players (again, myself included) have sat on the sidelines mocking AOK and questioning his advice amongst ourselves. After this continuing for so long I see the situation starting to reach a head. The occasional caustic remark is being replaced by more blatant and public responses.

I think a more appropriate and constructive way to approach the situation would be to respond specifcally to the advice one disagrees with as oppossed to the person that presented it.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

AOK reminds me of a cult leader. He preaches to the naive and inexperienced.

See I dont agree. I have taken his advice, and I apply it in some games and not in others. I often use aspects of counterplay in my game but more often than not I am far looser and more aggressive in places than his style advocates.

Im not a player who has graduated to high stakes. Im certainly not much more than a beginner but im not about to blindly follow advice because someone told me so. I think you high-stakes graduates drasticaly underestimate the intelligence of the noobs like myself. I try to think about every answer that I get given when I ask a question and if im not happy with it Ill ask. Thats why I think ill be good at this one day.

As much as I respect AOK for his success and efforts to help others, I must agree for the most part with DaNuts. I have tended to be confronted with extreme resistance whenever questioning AOK's advice. Not from AOK himself, whom I do not have any grievance with in particular, but from his 'disciples'

Perhaps the most serious flaw I have seen in AOK's advice (which has bothered me time and time again) is no consideration whatsoever for suitedness preflop. Suitedness is a real and significant advantage, especially with an A or K high starting hand. To ignore its value completely when judging a starting hand's value is to me an extremely serious poker mistake.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

AOK reminds me of a cult leader. He preaches to the naive and inexperienced.

I didn't wanna say it, but that's what I was thinking too. I've seen it in other forums in the past too, and it has made me quite allergic to this sort of "style over substance" approach. Maybe Aok really is a great teacher or a one-of-a-kind poker player, but so far I haven't really been convinced to be honest. Maybe it's my lack of information, but atleast I don't seem to be the only one who thinks this way.

I have tended to be confronted with extreme resistance whenever questioning AOK's advice.

Ya I've always found that weird.

OP: Fold preflop.

::sigh::

It's sad that this has made its way out of the community forum (which I avoided like the plague because of these types of discussions) and into the beginner forum.

Welcome to FTR, we quibble and bicker with each other and post lots of nasty things because we don't like some other people on the forum.

I'm glad I don't give a whole lot of advice myself, because I would hate to be slandered for it.

ummmm... ehhh .... hi.

I would love to say a few things, if you don't mind

First, I would love to say that I read all the posts in this thread. I can't say that. I got about half way down and ran out of energy.

Second, I would like to say that I feel attacked and wronged... Can't say that either. I find it interesting and ... I don't know ... humorous I generate this level of passion at all on either side, period.

But, I do want to clear some things up for anyone interested at this point - although how anyone would read this far down into this thread is beyond me.

First, I hate pissing contests and I'm sorry this thread turned into one.

Second, I make it a point to understand beginner "logic" and mentality and consider it when I post. The point is not to play trash. If you think a beginner is going to make a balls-on move like this, then OK, think that. Also, if a beginner did do it then they would at least learn a lesson about the value of agression over passive play (the question was basically, when should I call with trash cards). But, whatever, like the advice, don't, use it, don't. Doesn't matter to me. I always consider my voice to just be one of many. No more valuable, no less. OTHER people can put value or lack there-of to my advice. I don't.

Next, yes I have a way with words. I know how to turn a phase, tell a story, garner one's attention. But the words I use and the advice I give have not been found to cause cancer in labratory animals..... (see, I did it again. Said something in an interesting and humous way.... goddamn me!!) I happen to be of the opinion that saying things well matters, AND (I love all caps) I happen to take the time and energy to do so. I think advice should be clear, interesting and fun to read - but not cancer causing... (crap, did it again. See, they call that repetion of a theme. It's use in literature and humor... and it doesn't... wait for it... Cause Cancer.. I'm cracking myself up.

OK, back to serious.

I have been accused of making money from my advice, charging for lessons and whatever else along those lines. I don't charge for lessons. I have given many. Mannerboy (if he didn't chime in yet, again I didn't read all the posts) will tell you that not only did I not charge him for hundreds of hours of working together, I STAKED him. Well, I guess to be fair I did technically make money off that. I gave him 150 and told him he had to pay me back 300 when he hit 1000. It took him... less than a week to do that. I never expect to see my money again but I liked the kid. What do you want me to say. We're very close friends now, but I worked with him because he asked nicely and I had time because I was playing poker full time and had hours upon hours to kill.

If I've ever charged anyone money for anything on this site or anywhere else, please speak up. As a matter of fact I'll start a poll just to make sure.

Will I make money from my poker advice? Yes. I'm writing a book. I was asked to do so by many, adviced to do so by more, encouraged to do so by most. (see I did a litarary thing there, sorry) So I'm writing a book. Guess what. It's hard!! Wanna try it? Go ahead. I'm ONLY writing a book because:

1. I have a great system that works for beginners.
2. I have posted it in great chunks only to realize I am giving incomplete advice (correct but always incomplete) so the best way to fix it is to put it all in one place.
3. What I have to say is Unique, Pertinent, and Powerful. If I was going to say the same things everyone else says then I wouldn't write it.

I, honestly, don't know what to say to all this. There are hundreds of poker books, scores of forums, thousands of members, magazines, tv shows, articles.... The list of poker resources and advice is endless. However, my advice is somehow causing cancer.

I'm a cult leader? I command the inexperienced and unwashed poker fishies to do my bidding?

Let me tell you something, and I'm very serious about this, the Beginners Forum IS FTR to me. So many "GREAT AND GLOROUS" POKER GENIUSES sit around doing mental masterbation about useless minutia of poker and ignore the simple questions of "how, when, where" "I'm new" "Can you help me". They give 3 line answers to complex questions that are mainly regurgitations of crap they read in books. I'm a cult leader? I just answer honest questions in honest ways based on my experience. I happen to do it in a way that's interesting. Great! But to think that only idiots and fish care about what I have to say or think it's important is bullshit. I don't blow my own horn. Have you published poker articles? Do you consult with poker site owners? Do you spend hundreds of hours testing new ways to approach the game of poker for the simple goal of adding to poker knowledge? No. To call me a cult leader is to call the people who care about what I say Mindless, Unimportant, Faceless people. And to anyone who thinks that I say Fuck You. Go get cancer!

Now, I know there are people who don't like me. I get it. You disagree. Great. You think I'm an idiot. Great. Whatever... Give different advice. The part I don't get is that you think I'm the devil and must be stopped. THAT PART makes me giggle like a little girl.

I play poker. I observe poker. I think about poker. And I do it all in a bit of a sideways perspective. I prefer to come up with something unique, powerful, and useful to those who are interested. Will I sell my book? Yep. You can to if you go write one. Do I have people who care about what I'm doing? Yep. Sorry if that tweaks your panties. Does one post from me warrant a 50+ post flamewar? Are you kidding me? Are you Fucking Kidding Me? If it helps at all let me say to those who want to flame me personally.... ready? I ... don't .... care.... what... you ... think... about... me. If you want to talk about poker, GREAT! I'm all for that. And when someone with a good point makes it I say, That was a good and valid point. I don't think my way is the only way. It's one of DOZENS if not HUNDREDS.

To my fans regarding criticism of me, personally, I way. Just ignore it. Comment on what you know. Don't let it get to you. I have and continue to hang out with people who think poker theory is some sort of ivory tower, from the mountain top, edict from some poker god. Slansky is a person! Brunsun is a person. Malmuth, Jones, Caro, Harrington... are what? (cancer lol) People who play (or played) poker. I don't say I'm one of them. I'm just writing a book and giving my opinion. Yes, I write well. (cancer!)

ok... I've officially taken enough time with this. I should have just ignored it.

I'm going to make a poll because I hold my character and reputation dear. I don't make money from helping people. I've had people offer me money. I don't take it. I could, but I don't. Some would, but I won't. (again with the catchy writing. Damn me.)

Go ahead with this thread of you want. I won't be visiting it again.

Thank you to those who stood up for my character. Those who are making accusations about me profiting don't know anything. Those who are challenging my game and advice from an emotional level, don't know anything. Those who want to answer people's advice with advice of their own, I have all the respect for in the world.

But as is often the case, those who yell the loudest have the least to say.

I'm going to tell you a secret about my book and the Ultimate goal of my helping people. The book teaches you how to CREATE YOUR OWN GAME. It does that by teaching you my version of Performance Poker based on alot more than just the 19 starting hands. Then it teaches you some other ways to approach poker like LAGG, Counter-Play, etc. And finally it teaches you how to create, document, test, and field a game of your own that will be successfull. Just thought people who are reading this silly, enormously long thread should know.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Perhaps the most serious flaw I have seen in AOK's advice (which has bothered me time and time again) is no consideration whatsoever for suitedness preflop. Suitedness is a real and significant advantage, especially with an A or K high starting hand. To ignore its value completely when judging a starting hand's value is to me an extremely serious poker mistake.

I don't disagree with this. I just think most people put too high a value on suitedness. What IS the value? How much better is AKs over AK preflop in a NL ring game? What are the stats? How do you play the hand out in different situation? I think this is a very good thread to explore. I know my opinion, and I've said it. I've said why I think it is of less value than most people think, especially for beginners. But there's reasons to think differently. It sounds like you know them. You should share them.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Perhaps the most serious flaw I have seen in AOK's advice (which has bothered me time and time again) is no consideration whatsoever for suitedness preflop. Suitedness is a real and significant advantage, especially with an A or K high starting hand. To ignore its value completely when judging a starting hand's value is to me an extremely serious poker mistake.

I know your predominately a limit player right?

In limit the difference IS huge. Because if you flop that 1/10 draw, you can take the hand to the river with +EV.

In no-limit the difference is trivial IMO, particularly if you are a TAgg. For a LAgg on the other hand, when you depend on pushing draws a lot more, then suitedness becomes real important.

Second, I make it a point to understand beginner "logic" and mentality and consider it when I post. The point is not to play trash. If you think a beginner is going to make a balls-on move like this, then OK, think that. Also, if a beginner did do it then they would at least learn a lesson about the value of agression over passive play (the question was basically, when should I call with trash cards). But, whatever, like the advice, don't, use it, don't. Doesn't matter to me. I always consider my voice to just be one of many. No more valuable, no less. OTHER people can put value or lack there-of to my advice. I don't.

You have built up an image to your readers, they follow your advice, to the letter. To think otherwise shows your own irresponsibility. This is exactly what I was saying about your lack of humbleness.

Next, yes I have a way with words. I know how to turn a phase, tell a story, garner one's attention. But the words I use and the advice I give have not been found to cause cancer in labratory animals..... (see, I did it again. Said something in an interesting and humous way.... goddamn me!!) I happen to be of the opinion that saying things well matters, AND (I love all caps) I happen to take the time and energy to do so. I think advice should be clear, interesting and fun to read - but not cancer causing... (crap, did it again. See, they call that repetion of a theme. It's use in literature and humor... and it doesn't... wait for it... Cause Cancer.. I'm cracking myself up.

Once again you have missed the point completely. The point is that buy using a bunch of unnessary words to pretty up your posts you distract people from the fact that the content isn't that good. People have been doing this for years...politicians.

Will I make money from my poker advice? Yes. I'm writing a book. I was asked to do so by many, adviced to do so by more, encouraged to do so by most. (see I did a litarary thing there, sorry) So I'm writing a book. Guess what. It's hard!! Wanna try it? Go ahead. I'm ONLY writing a book because:

1. I have a great system that works for beginners.
2. I have posted it in great chunks only to realize I am giving incomplete advice (correct but always incomplete) so the best way to fix it is to put it all in one place.
3. What I have to say is Unique, Pertinent, and Powerful. If I was going to say the same things everyone else says then I wouldn't write it.

I, honestly, don't know what to say to all this. There are hundreds of Poker Books, scores of forums, thousands of members, magazines, tv shows, articles.... The list of poker resources and advice is endless. However, my advice is somehow causing cancer.

Who the **** do you think you are? Actually....who are you? Why would anyone buy your book? Have you thought of that? Phil Helmuth and Doyle Brunson can sell books for a reason, because they have won LARGE amounts of money playing poker. People respect them. Please, please, post your accomplishments in poker. I'm talking stats in every stake. Hands played, profit, BB/100, bring it. And i will gladly shut the fuck up. Why am I saying this....I don't think you have the data to shut me the fuck up. 90% of my problem is that you give your advice with a tone that implies you know what you are doing. If i asked Doyle Brunson to give me his credentials for his book or advice, he would, where is yours?

I don't blow my own horn. Have you published poker articles? Do you consult with poker site owners? Do you spend hundreds of hours testing new ways to approach the game of poker for the simple goal of adding to poker knowledge? No. To call me a cult leader is to call the people who care about what I say Mindless, Unimportant, Faceless people. And to anyone who thinks that I say Fuck You. Go get cancer!

Yes you do blow your own horn. "I will make a million dollars this year, maybe more" etc. etc. etc. Where are you poker articles published??? I haven't seen these articles.
And to call you are cult leader is to say that your "followers" are misguided, not mindless. And for that we are correct in saying it. Actually it is the responsibility of those of us who know better to help the midguided realize the problem.

Now, I know there are people who don't like me. I get it. You disagree. Great. You think I'm an idiot. Great. Whatever... Give different advice. The part I don't get is that you think I'm the devil and must be stopped. THAT PART makes me giggle like a little girl.

I have a fucking problem with you passing yourself off as some poker guru to give questionable advice in a way that makes the reader feel stupid for questioning it or disagreeing.

I play poker.

Lets play, name the stakes. If you're so great, you should have no problem with this, because you should obviously have an advantage.

Edit: After posting this i realized it was not gonna have the effect I wanted it to...so i'll just say it. What stakes to do you play, in what? All your posts are here. You would think I would see some hands from you posted. I personally would like to know this. And i have expectations of the truth. So please tell me what you play and lets play a friendly game.

I observe poker. I think about poker. And I do it all in a bit of a sideways perspective. I prefer to come up with something unique, powerful, and useful to those who are interested. Will I sell my book? Yep. You can to if you go write one. Do I have people who care about what I'm doing? Yep. Sorry if that tweaks your panties. Does one post from me warrant a 50+ post flamewar? Are you kidding me? Are you Fucking Kidding Me? If it helps at all let me say to those who want to flame me personally.... ready? I ... don't .... care.... what... you ... think... about... me. If you want to talk about poker, GREAT! I'm all for that. And when someone with a good point makes it I say, That was a good and valid point. I don't think my way is the only way. It's one of DOZENS if not HUNDREDS.

The problem is that you don't tell your listeners that. They read your advice, take it as FACT and are scared shitless to challenge it.

Go ahead with this thread of you want. I won't be visiting it again.

Don't BS me, i know you will read this, and if you don't respond you have proven me right. If i'm so wrong in my points, prove it.

Thank you to those who stood up for my character. Those who are making accusations about me profiting don't know anything. Those who are challenging my game and advice from an emotional level, don't know anything. Those who want to answer people's advice with advice of their own, I have all the respect for in the world.

I never accused you of profiting. And i'm challenging the way you present your advice to those who don't know any better. Stop taking it off topic.

But as is often the case, those who yell the loudest have the least to say.

Typical cop-out response.

I raise you sir. Call or fold.

If you think a beginner is going to make a balls-on move like this, then OK, think that.

I can honestly see someone doing this. Couple of reasons why..

1. Bluffing is exaggerated on the multiple different poker shows -( Some Begginner may sees it on TV, You mention of it, HEY THIS MUST WORK
2. As begginers do, they tilt, the idea WILL pop into their head and then they go broke.

I am at Micro limits now. ( Building BR ATM ) I was watching the chat and a couple of gents who knew each other where talking and the one stated he was on every last cent he had on his account.. He was VERY Risky and often with his money.. not being a dick I left the table ( I took 40 of his 73 cents ). I could not imagine going that far down hill so as to only have under a buck on my account. These types of people DO exist and they ( I feel ) are brainless. Poker has become a craze and people do listen to what others say and will live by it to the grave.

As I have always stated I am in no way shape or form a pro. But I am witnessing the people who would be susceptible to doing anything they see in a book or ( example forum ) at the drop of a hat.

My little 2 cents worth.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

ummmm... ehhh .... hi.

sup

Second, I would like to say that I feel attacked and wronged... Can't say that either.

Ofcourse you do.. you got personally attacked here, if you don't feel attacked that'd be pretty weird. The length of this post and the poll you put up should make that clear too.

I find it interesting and ... I don't know ... humorous I generate this level of passion at all on either side, period.

There is no doubt in my mind that that is true yes.

I always consider my voice to just be one of many. No more valuable, no less.

That is the thing, precisely. Your whole set-up is, on purpose or not, trying to give an air of omniscience. As if your advice is the beginning and end of poker and you're some kind of poker god who decided to grace the beginner forum with his presence. Tons of people here give advice. No need for anyone, unless maybe they do have a bunch of credentials (you know, like the real big poker names), to play above the others.

Next, yes I have a way with words. I know how to turn a phase, tell a story, garner one's attention.

Yep, I think I'm gonna archive this post; It has quite a few gems. You know, for future reference.

Cause Cancer.. I'm cracking myself up.

I dunno, cancer might ring bad with some people. Maybe a less laden word would have been better here?

Will I make money from my poker advice? Yes. I'm writing a book.

There we go. Btw I don't blame you either. It's only natural from seeing your post and the work you put into your system etc.

I, honestly, don't know what to say to all this. There are hundreds of poker books, scores of forums, thousands of members, magazines, tv shows, articles.... The list of poker resources and advice is endless. However, my advice is somehow causing cancer.

Ofcourse not. No-one said that either. This is a tangent you set up yourself a few lines higher in this post.

To call me a cult leader is to call the people who care about what I say Mindless, Unimportant, Faceless people. And to anyone who thinks that I say Fuck You. Go get cancer!

Nice spin there, excellent work. Suddenly there is an attack on your students - and ofcourse you get mad about that!

I ... don't .... care.... what... you ... think... about... me.

because I hold my character and reputation dear.

Hm. I think those two were too close together in order to let people forget about the first when you later mention the opposite. Probably needed more filling inbetween.

I don't make money from helping people. I've had people offer me money. I don't take it. I could, but I don't. Some would, but I won't. (again with the catchy writing. Damn me.)

Yeah, these are great, lol. Especially the self-criticism in there

Go ahead with this thread of you want. I won't be visiting it again.

There is no doubt in my mind you will. Let's be honest here shall we?

But as is often the case, those who yell the loudest have the least to say.

QFT

Originally Posted by jackvance

To call me a cult leader is to call the people who care about what I say Mindless, Unimportant, Faceless people. And to anyone who thinks that I say Fuck You. Go get cancer!

Nice spin there, excellent work. Suddenly there is an attack on your students - and ofcourse you get mad about that!

The thing is jack, it is an insult to us (yes I was one of the beginners who followed his advice) to say that we will never grow past AOKs beginner strategies because we are going to "blindy follow" him like some kind of cult without ever questioning what he says. AOK has been around a while and has helped alot of beginners to learn the basics of the game without losing a ton of money. To say that we can never grow past that, or that we will somehow stop thinking for ourselves and be stunted by it basically just implies that we are stupid, and I do find that insulting.

You've only just got here and have already made several posts claiming you finally "get it" whilst playing an underbankrolled LAG game where it just isnt necessary. To go from that, to accusing someone of the same attitude (but someone with a little experience), and then accusing him of trying to somehow con money out of new members here without any evidence except for your own ability to read between the lines of his posts (i.e. read what isnt there in his posts) is just plain weird.
Lamb has personal issues with AOK. I dont know what yours are but perhaps you should talk to him about it privately rather than post these made up accusations in public.

Originally Posted by Pelion

The thing is jack, it is an insult to us (yes I was one of the beginners who followed his advice) to say that we will never grow past AOKs beginner strategies because we are going to "blindy follow" him like some kind of cult without ever questioning what he says.

Someone else said the cult-thing, not me. And that's the point btw, he made it seem like an attack on his "students", which is fabricated. You can reread my posts, nowhere have I said his advice has no merit.

AOK has been around a while and has helped alot of beginners to learn the basics of the game without losing a ton of money.

Yes and that is very commendable. I've just always found it strange that he likes to stand out so much, when basically everyone here is giving out advice and helping others etc.

You've only just got here and have already made several posts claiming you finally "get it" whilst playing an underbankrolled LAG game where it just isnt necessary.

True, but in my defense, the past week I've made $200 on poker - not long term enough, I know - but I must be doing something right atleast. (since yesterday I've been officially BR'ed for 10NL, lol)

To go from that, to accusing someone of the same attitude

Ehm I'm just a very transparant person I guess. I just share what's on my mind, personal information, whatever, I don't care. And when I'm wrong, people don't hesitate to call me on it, which is great, because I actually do take that advice and learn from it.

Lamb has personal issues with AOK.

Didn't know about the skeletons in the closet here in FTR. You can say, then be quiet, but atleast now some light is being shed into a lot of things that were confusing.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, I know I've probably been out of line here. That I got a bit carried away. I'm new, bla. I should keep quiet, bla. It's a personality flaw I guess.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Ehm I'm just a very transparant person I guess. I just share what's on my mind, personal information, whatever, I don't care. And when I'm wrong, people don't hesitate to call me on it, which is great, because I actually do take that advice and learn from it.

Well think you are wrong here. Anyways, can we get back to the poker now?

jackvance. if you would like to stop activating your BS alarm and actually win enough money so as not to be playing 10NL...

it's not that hard to make money at poker. it's a game of mistakes, just like chess. You don't win by playing perfectly. You win by making fewer mistakes than your opponents. And 19 hands is a way to facilitate making fewer mistakes. It's not in itself a very good way to play (doesn't take into account position, and far too predictable), but in a game where people are making huge mistakes, 19 hands is at worst a small mistake.

I was once in a rut when I had a huge card rush and I was struggling with the resultant fall back to reality. He gave me excellent advice and gave it eloquently. SonofAkira too...

Now if you don't wanna listen to him, fine. if you want to come up with your own system to make method to play winning poker or use someone else's, more power to you.

Finally, *so what* if he is subtly encouraging people to take lessons from him. What is wrong with that? If you had the skill and the eloquence to do so and the inclination, you could too. But you don't, so whatever.

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

jackvance. if you would like to stop activating your BS alarm and actually win enough money so as not to be playing 10NL....

I am. A week ago i hit a $10 low. Now I've passed $200. It takes time.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

jackvance. if you would like to stop activating your BS alarm and actually win enough money so as not to be playing 10NL....

I am. A week ago i hit a $10 low. Now I've passed $200. It takes time.

lol. You Still arent gettig it jack.

Yes it takes time.

A week is not enough time.
Maybe youre playing well now. I hope you are. Maybe youve just had a good run of cards, or maybe youve been playing well but you havnt got the discipline yet and youll tilt it all away tomorrow.

A week is not alot of time

Originally Posted by Pelion

Yes it takes time.

A week is not enough time.
Maybe youre playing well now. I hope you are. Maybe youve just had a good run of cards, or maybe youve been playing well but you havnt got the discipline yet and youll tilt it all away tomorrow.

A week is not alot of time

My perspective exactly.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by jackvance

There's not a shadow of a doubt he is making money off of poker lessons, one way or the other.

I'm not a mod or nothing but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from blatently lying and fabricating information in these forums.

Your words that he isn't have no more credibility than jackvance's saying that he is.

They do because I took part in those lessons for FREE and so I have evidence that he didn't make any money off them. I KNOW I'm ot the only one who got FREE lessons either.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

To my fans

Just to put this out in the open, I'm not your fan. I believe that the advice you give has credibility andcan help beginners. Thats as far as it goes though.

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

jackvance. if you would like to stop activating your BS alarm and actually win enough money so as not to be playing 10NL...

Jack you've posted more untruths and wild unfounded acusations in this thread then I think I've ever seen in a FTR thread.

The majority of your posts have been snide remarks and sarcasm.

Well, I might as well jump in here. As a forum, this thread represents the most nonsensical bunch of crap as I have ever seen on ANY forum (cars, music, investing, gaming, you name it). AOK, as well as many others, provided me a starting point for my poker play. When I began 6 months ago, I didn't know much about the game other than the fact that 4 of a kind was a damn good hand.

Using AOK's starting 19 hands, I was able to eliminate the major mistakes I had been making. Then I read more posts from others to improve my game (as someone mentioned ... using position, reads, pot odds, and table texture). I have tried to take each piece of advice and put in the context of the current state of my game. As I get better, I try to assimilate each person's input.

The point is, this is a BEGINNER'S forum. I am a beginner and appreciate all those who contribute. I am learning more every time I play. Now at 40,000 hands I have to say that AOK's advice has helped ME a lot. And so have many of you.

The moderator should either close this thread or move it to a more appropriate forum. The vitrol is just overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Jack you've posted more untruths and wild unfounded acusations in this thread then I think I've ever seen in a FTR thread.

The majority of your posts have been snide remarks and sarcasm.

Something about this struck a nerve.

A few years back on another forum (about NLP) there actually was something like what I described going on, and me pointing out the inconsistencies and such caused some uproar and the guys that were selling their air (in this case genuine air) actually paid me off to leave! I was gonna leave anyway so I took their "bribe" as I went, but it always left quite a sour aftertaste.

Seems this is quite a different situation though. I'm pretty much satisfied with having seen this discussed and, well, ready to move on.

Originally Posted by jackvance

A few years back on another forum (about NLP) there actually was something like what I described going on, and me pointing out the inconsistencies and such caused some uproar and the guys that were selling their air (in this case genuine air) actually paid me off to leave! I was gonna leave anyway so I took their "bribe" as I went, but it always left quite a sour aftertaste.

So. . . you said all that stuff just incase it made someone give you money? Good effort I guess.

Originally Posted by Pelion

So. . . you said all that stuff just incase it made someone give you money? Good effort I guess.

No I said that stuff because I was pissed off just like I will tell you now you're pissing me off.

Gotta weigh in a little. Get off Aok's back. This is the beginner forum. He helps beginners. Jack, lamb and anyone else who disagrees should maybe move to the high stakes or another forum. It was a pretty basic question and if you idiots would go back to the beginning you would see that Aok was right. FUCK!! Jack, who are you to talk. You got what, 3 weeks in poker. You haven't heard a word anyones said to the "human computer with freinds that play poker.......winning money....blah blah blah, lambchop, you say you have been holding this in, then your issue is a little farther back and I don't know what it is. Try posting a reply to the OP. If you have a problem with AOK's posts take it up with him. Aok knows what he's talking about in the "BEGINNER FORUM" where all beginners come to not lose their money when they start, except Jack, he's got it all figured out, you can tell by the $200 he's won. Of course every story he tells after going over his chess mastery, Mathematics, womanizer credentials ends in the same thing "but then variance got me and I lost it, but now I know". And WTF is NLP. Seriously guys "HELP, OR GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE BEGINNER FORUM." FUCK!!!

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by jackvance

A few years back on another forum (about NLP) there actually was something like what I described going on, and me pointing out the inconsistencies and such caused some uproar and the guys that were selling their air (in this case genuine air) actually paid me off to leave! I was gonna leave anyway so I took their "bribe" as I went, but it always left quite a sour aftertaste.

So. . . you said all that stuff just incase it made someone give you money? Good effort I guess.

LOL

GG TY NO RE

As usual, the point I was trying to get across was completely missed and tainted by a bunch of BS so i'll post to clarify then i'll drop it.

Short Summary:

A. I have ZERO personal issues with AOK. My problem with him is that I believe the method in which he instructs beginners is irresponsible and and unwarranted. The reason I snapped at this post is because I thought the advice AOK gave in this post (and some other posts) was horrible and that some (NOT ALL) of the readers would actually follow it because they buy into the Godly image AOK has created for himself.

B. My attacking of AOK's creditibility IS NOT AN INSULT to his "students." And yes, Jack was right when he said AOK spun that one well. The point of that matter is that when you create an image for yourself by, talking about your poker book you're writing, talking about what a great teacher you are, etc; SOME PEOPLE WILL FOLLOW YOU BLINDLY. If AOK had any sense of responsibility to his "students" he wouldn't make replies like in this post that ARE EASY TO TAKE OUT OF CONTEXT. I guarantee you, that had this thread not exploded, at least one person would have followed his 10x BB bs and lost half a buyin by the river.

C. I never made any accusations regarding AOK charging students, leave me out of that one.

D. Please do not disregard the good points that have been made in this thread because of the flaming attached. The one that I hope will come across is that there is not any one system for poker. No advice is the 100% best advice. Just because someone is "respected" does not mean they are right. If you fall into believing otherwise you are headed down the wrong road in this game.

There, thats my clarification, if anyone spins anything else out of my words I will hunt you down with a deck of cards and stick the Ace of Clubs into your forehead the same way Chris Ferguson does to a carrot :P