What is your range?

Ok heres the deal.

You sitting on the button with two cards at a 200NL table on Party Poker. Effective stacks are $200 and there are ten players.

Folds to the player in third position, a fairly solid but fairly predictable 18/9 TAgg raises to 7. It folds to you.

What is your calling range? Threebetting range? Range of hands that you will threebet occasionally but mostly just call?


Here's mine:

Call: 22-QQ, AJs, AQ, KQs
Reraise: KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: TT+, 67s-JTs
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AK

I think I probably could call with more.

Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: Any 2 I guess if the mood is right.
Sometimes call: 78s-JTs
Notable: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.

Originally Posted by Renton

Ok heres the deal.

You sitting on the button with two cards at a 200NL table on Party Poker. Effective stacks are $200 and there are ten players.

Folds to the player in third position, a fairly solid but fairly predictable 18/9 TAgg raises to 7. It folds to you.

What is your calling range? Threebetting range? Range of hands that you will threebet occasionally but mostly just call?


Here's mine:

Call: 22-QQ, AJs, AQ, KQs
Reraise: KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: TT+, 67s-JTs
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AK

I think I probably could call with more.

This depends alot on my table image, but assuming I'm playing my normal full-ring tagg game:
Call: JJ-22, AQs, AK
Reraise: AA, KK, QQ, AKs
Sometimes reraise: TT+, JTs-54s, AK
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AKs

Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA,
Sometimes reraise: 99+, AK.
Sometimes call: 67s-JTs, AK

I agree with Wildbob....: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.

predictable tagg?
Any two
steal any pot he missed

am I the only one that thinks reraising suited connectors is pretty terrible in this spot?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

predictable tagg?
Any two
steal any pot he missed

I'm a fairly predictable tagg, and I love players who think they can float on me with grossly inferior cards in nothing pots and think THEY are the ones getting the best of it.

I don't have any real preset ranges here to be honest. I like 3-betting my big pairs and AK. Sometimes I'll just call with those. Calling with a small or mid pair here is so easy it's routine. Sometimes I'll call with a good suited connector, but sometimes not. Depends a lot about what I tought of this player's post-flop skill and the players behind me. Hands like AJ, KQ, AQo, etc, are instamucks.

Oh yeah, and to reiterate my point. I think a lot of players around here see the ol' 3-betting with suited connectors as a good changeup play, and it certainly can be. Somebody tell me why are we reraising with 89s here when there's 5bb in the pot, and a solid tagg opened for pot with seven players behind him including the blinds? Bad time for it, sorry.

I like to re-raise with JJ and QQ here most of the time, because they can be a bitch to play if you just call, and get heavy action when you flop an overpair. I want to find out where I stand right away.

I think re-raising with a small suited connector here is mind-bogglingly bad, you're probably dominated and you're building a big pot preflop to make sure that your implied odds suck. What I do with suited connectors here depends on whether or not this player gets married to overpairs.

Lukie: Perhaps you'd be so good as to post a simple definition of "float." I've seen it used here with increasing frequency, and I'm clueless as to what it means.

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by relayer

Lukie: Perhaps you'd be so good as to post a simple definition of "float." I've seen it used here with increasing frequency, and I'm clueless as to what it means.

Thanks in advance.

Calling without pot odds, intending on taking away the pot on a later street by representing something or when shown weakness.

Thank you, fnord.

What is wrong with seeing a flop in position with big suited broadways against a mediocre-plus player who raises 9%?

Domination seems to be a huge concern.

I'm a fairly predictable tagg, and I love players who think they can float on me with grossly inferior cards in nothing pots and think THEY are the ones getting the best of it.

Hopefully we'll get to play together one day when you leave that stars dump

Then we'll test how you like getting all in with just top pair against an aggro and playing Ace high unimproved.

If you cant call the bets then you cant win the pots. Most floaters below 400nl are poor players anyway, i still have some way to go.
btw, i only need to 'not float' once for you to not like playing for stacks.

Floating such high variance play.. I stopped doing it for the most part. Maybe it gets better at the higher limits where you have more fold equity?

Originally Posted by jackvance

Floating such high variance play.. I stopped doing it for the most part. Maybe it gets better at the higher limits where you have more fold equity?

it works better when players arent calling stations (as they are at lower limits) wont get all in on holdings likely to be well behind a raise and those that know players can read their likely hole card range.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

it works better when players arent calling stations (as they are at lower limits) wont get all in on holdings likely to be well behind a raise and those that know players can read their likely hole card range.

Right, thx for the confirmation. So I'm guessing I'll have to wait with floating til 50NL right? (or the tighter 20NL tables atleast, had some success with it there)

One last question, do you generally wait with floating til you get bigstacked, like 200BB+, or not?

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA, AK
Notable: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.
Sometimes reraise: Any 2 I guess if the mood is right.
Sometimes call: 78s-JTs

For me the mood is very rarely right to call with SCs and any 2 but I guess it could happen agains a certain few.
Aside from that I totally agree. I also hate being dominated.

Call: 22-JJ

Sometimes Call: AKs/QQ/KK/AA

Reraise: AKs/QQ/KK/AA

I don't love the reraise here with the suited connectors. But its not the worse play in the world. Personaly I just call here with the suited connectors. However I do reraise big with QQ to AA and reraise the min with 99 to JJ, AQ and AK. Reraising with 99to JJ, AQ and Ak is not becuase I am sure I have the best hand. But gives me a better feel for where I stand and hopefully gets me heads up. If I reraise with AQ and the ace hits I am very carefull. Just call with 22 to 88 and play suited connectors and gappers 34 to J10. Toss AJ,KQ ect....

Originally Posted by Renton

Ok heres the deal.

You sitting on the button with two cards at a 200NL table on Party Poker. Effective stacks are $200 and there are ten players.

Folds to the player in third position, a fairly solid but fairly predictable 18/9 TAgg raises to 7. It folds to you.

What is your calling range? Threebetting range? Range of hands that you will threebet occasionally but mostly just call?


Here's mine:

Call: 22-QQ, AJs, AQ, KQs
Reraise: KK, AA, AK
Sometimes reraise: TT+, 67s-JTs
Sometimes call: AA, KK, AK

I think I probably could call with more.

Explain more here why reraising suited-connectors is a good play here.

its +ev against loose raisers

Originally Posted by Renton

its +ev against loose raisers

i think you mean its +ev vs loose callers

fwiw ive almost completely stopped playing small suited connectors entirely. its too much work. the flushes arent worth anything once you make them, and if you make the straight, its tough for anyone else to have a hand, unless they made a set ( in which case you are in big trouble until the river falls). my new hobby is to fight off draws rather than try to make them.

Originally Posted by siknd

my new hobby is to fight off draws rather than try to make them.

Quoted for truth. That struck home for some reason.

Renton said : "It's (reraise w suited connectors) + EV against loose raisers".

Aren't we talking about a Tagg raising from EP? What does that have to do with "loose raisers"?

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Renton said : "It's (reraise w suited connectors) + EV against loose raisers".

Aren't we talking about a Tagg raising from EP? What does that have to do with "loose raisers"?

well I also said he's 9% PFR. That means he's a somewhat loose raiser.

Originally Posted by badandy519

Call: 22-JJ
Reraise: QQ, KK, AA,
Sometimes reraise: 99+, AK.
Sometimes call: 67s-JTs, AK

I agree with Wildbob....: AQ, AJ, KQ always go in the muck.

I tend to follow this range, and the difference between others mentioned is that I generally don't like to reraise with AK suited or not. But as listed here, it's more of an optional play for me.

Originally Posted by siknd

fwiw ive almost completely stopped playing small suited connectors entirely.

I've rarely called with them. However, I like raising with them.

For suited connectors, I'm curious why people stop at 7-8s or 6-7s. Why not go down to 4-5s? What does 8-9s have that 4-5s doesn't, in this situation?

Originally Posted by Awaji E

For suited connectors, I'm curious why people stop at 7-8s or 6-7s. Why not go down to 4-5s? What does 8-9s have that 4-5s doesn't, in this situation?

Better chance of making straight over straight and boat over boat.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Aside from that I totally agree. I also hate being dominated.

I guess I hate being dominated too, but my behavior to this point wouldn't demonstrate that (AJ and AQ are so pretty sometimes). I think I found a little leak to plug...

So is it really a huge ev mistake to cold call here with AJs, AQs, AQ?

Originally Posted by Renton

So is it really a huge ev mistake to cold call here with AJs, AQs, AQ?

I don't think AQs is an obvious fold at all. It seems to be common to assume that a preflop raiser automatically has AK and therefore you should fold all weaker aces, but I think that assumption is just about the stupidest thing ever. That's the assumption that fish make when they call three barrels with their underpair just because the board doesn't have a face card on it.

Once you get down to AJ you're starting to play pretty shittily against his range.

Originally Posted by Renton

So is it really a huge ev mistake to cold call here with AJs, AQs, AQ?

a cold call is when you just call a bet in a raise (or a raise and reraise preflop).

If you are a solid post-flop player and you can play your position well, I don't think it's as big of a mistake as people make it out to be. But I still think in the specific situation outlined, yes, it's probably a mistake nonetheless.

Also, the 9% PFR is kind of deceiving in this spot. You make it seem like it's a really laggy range. But in actuality, a 9% range looks something like:

77+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo

More importantly, in his position, it's undoubtedly tighter.

I reraise AK/AQ and pp 99+ and occasionally other stuff like sc's.

As a general rule i wouldnt reraise trash or sc's here a whole lot but i'd do a lot of calling against predicatble opposition.
If the stacks were 200bbs deep this would be a whole different scenario considering implied odds...

I wish more players like miffed played in my games.

Yeah, generally when I raise in EP I want a player or two to call me with garbage.

re raise with 99 miffed??? LOLOLOLOL. against a raiser from early postition u are misplaying ur hand so badly u might as well give away half ur stack everytime in this situation. terrible play miffed. bigboy leaves this place for a couple days and some of you guys start blabbing about terrible plays for everyone else to learn. Re raise with suited connectors Renton?? LOLOLOL. You two still have a lot to learn about this game. wow. HAHAHAH

you two might think ur good, but no amount of skill can make you a winning player playin like a fish. when u start re raising with garbage can not possibly ever be +EV in a full ring when the original raiser is doing it from early position. You two noobs make me laugh pretty hard. When I'm done with finals I will come back to this place and give you two some more lessons on how to play this game. Thanks for the laugh tho miffed and renton.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

re raise with 99 miffed??? LOLOLOLOL. against a raiser from early postition u are misplaying ur hand so badly u might as well give away half ur stack everytime in this situation. terrible play miffed. bigboy leaves this place for a couple days and some of you guys start blabbing about terrible plays for everyone else to learn. Re raise with suited connectors Renton?? LOLOLOL. You two still have a lot to learn about this game. wow. HAHAHAH

bigboy
move to site where players arent donks then rephrase your plays.
Textbook works on donkdog but it wont at tighter sites.
As i rule i dont reraise 99 every time, sit me with a deep stack and we'll see how you fight off implied odds...

I wish more players like miffed played in my games.

Im trying to decide if this is nice

LOL miffed u say move to a site where players arent donks. LOLOLOL and why sunshine, would i want to do that if i am winning where i am playing? You are a funny kid i give u that. but enough with the jokes. im tired of them.

and i am 100% sure the way i play i will win no matter where i play. for sure. You on the other hand...LOL.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

LOL miffed u say move to a site where players arent donks. LOLOLOL and why sunshine, would i want to do that if i am winning where i am playing? You are a funny kid i give u that. but enough with the jokes. im tired of them.

i didnt tell you to move dozy, i noted that when you dont play against players who grossly overplay their hands or just basically suck at medium limits you need to become *slightly* more creative.

bigboy
move to site where players arent donks ..[/quote]

sounds like ur telling me to move there. lol. u get funnier by the minute man. seriously.

maybe just stop trying to sound smart and stop talking because it is working in reverse for you. You have made bad recommendations to the forum member and someone needs to say that ur plays are horrible... I am that someone. now just learn from it and move on. no big deal.

i know u will probably take my advice anyway without acknowledging me. its ok but at least stop trying to sound like u know what ur doing because you really don't.

while hes not very diplomatic, hes right. ive already mentioned above in this thread that i think suited-connectors are best played only rarely. the best way to play them imo is to enter pots in position. youre not necessarily trying to make a hand, rather you are floating with them. for as many times as you actually make a hand with the SC, an equal amount of the time you will be simply exploiting weaknesses and scooping up orphan pots. they should be used as an excuse to enter more pots in position, in order to take advantage of that edge, which in most higher stakes deep-stacked games, is more important than hand values themselves.

re-raising with 99 is suicide. if youre right (ie, opp has big cards), you have sent the action back around. if they come over the top with their AKs, you now have to fold the hand. even if they flat call, you are less than even-money since they can easily CLAIM any overcard (1/3 of the deck). however, most times you will be on two outs to begin with and have now swelled the pot to the point where it cannot be profitable in the long run even if you do manage to set up.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

maybe just stop trying to sound smart and stop talking because it is working in reverse for you. You have made bad recommendations to the forum member and someone needs to say that ur plays are horrible... I am that someone. now just learn from it and move on. no big deal.

1. not being smart making a suggestion. I suggest, you TELL. Big difference. When you look them up in the dictionary you'll find out
2. Bad recomendations? There is a paragraph in a sklansky book called 'theory of Poker' that notes something like raising with 53s is acceptatble at times because you need to create an image on your good hands. The same applies to reraising providing you have post-flop play. Maybe not with 53s admittedly but ppl will agree that reraising is a tactic that can be used to doiminate the table.
3. Bad recomendations? All ive seen from you so far is a lot of mouth and no proof. Your answers are fine, but they are the ABC line against players who play badly. Against players who dont suck so much you need to use a bit of brain. Ive said it before and ill say it again, my recomendations are not bad they are probably a little unorthodox a little aggressive but certainly attainable. I think and suggest you tell. I wonder which one people wnat to listen to? I certainly havent listened to a post you've made yet because you havent told me anything i dont know.
I may not play *exactly* from the textbook but at least i debate and discuss rather than tell and patronise

Originally Posted by siknd

while hes not very diplomatic, hes right. ive already mentioned above in this thread that i think suited-connectors are best played only rarely. the best way to play them imo is to enter pots in position. youre not necessarily trying to make a hand, rather you are floating with them. for as many times as you actually make a hand with the SC, an equal amount of the time you will be simply exploiting weaknesses and scooping up orphan pots. they should be used as an excuse to enter more pots in position, in order to take advantage of that edge, which in most higher stakes deep-stacked games, is more important than hand values themselves.

re-raising with 99 is suicide. if youre right (ie, opp has big cards), you have sent the action back around. if they come over the top with their AKs, you now have to fold the hand. even if they flat call, you are less than even-money since they can easily CLAIM any overcard (1/3 of the deck). however, most times you will be on two outs to begin with and have now swelled the pot to the point where it cannot be profitable in the long run even if you do manage to set up.

well said my friend.

bigboy, you would be eaten alive by good players with deep stacks

re-raising with 99 is suicide. if youre right (ie, opp has big cards), you have sent the action back around. if they come over the top with their AKs, you now have to fold the hand. even if they flat call, you are less than even-money since they can easily CLAIM any overcard (1/3 of the deck). however, most times you will be on two outs to begin with and have now swelled the pot to the point where it cannot be profitable in the long run even if you do manage to set up.

HOw many players at 18/9 have you seen 3bet AK preflop? or for that matter push over a reraise?
Im not debating that 99 is a little risky, or that AK calling here is bad. However id ask if 18/9's really push with AK? or 3bet for that matter?

lol you say ur plays are for players who don't suck. But using ur plays, u are the one doing the sucking. you are now effectively the donk at the table. my main criticism is doing it to an early position raiser. think about it. you have no advantage doing this. at least have the brains to do it to a late position raiser.

don't be a fool. any one with a right poker mind will acknowledge that what u are suggesting is going beyond building image and into donking/ leaking chips bigtime.

gabe i play with many good players with deep stacks and win consistantly. i know when to make plays such as re raising but the time is not right for miffed to suggest such a move. you should know that.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

lol you say ur plays are for players who don't suck. But using ur plays, u are the one doing the sucking. you are now effectively the donk at the table. my main criticism is doing it to an early position raiser. think about it. you have no advantage doing this. at least have the brains to do it to a late position raiser.

why exactly?
what are you putting an ep raisor on exacty?
ONLY AA-TT?
I doubt it.
Pokerstove suggests you probably a 40-60 dog against an ep range of AA-JJ AK/AQ/AJs. But then dont you want people to call your reraises when you have big hands? Or do you just want to reraise and win 4bbs for an opener?
I encourage people to play lesser hands against my range because i frequently push them about. Perhaps you just reraise the nuts eh?

How many players at 18/9 have you seen 3bet AK preflop? or for that matter push over a reraise?

your point is valid. im only trying to highlight the vulnerability of the middle pairs. and by the way, i play a lot at pokerroom, so im NEVER surprised to see what ppl 3bet with...

no, just not in the situation you have mentioned. very simple.

Originally Posted by siknd

How many players at 18/9 have you seen 3bet AK preflop? or for that matter push over a reraise?

your point is valid. im only trying to highlight the vulnerability of the middle pairs. and by the way, i play a lot at pokerroom, so im NEVER surprised to see what ppl 3bet with...

ill take that point
I somehow knew you would say that about pokerroom

its -EV and u are only getting urself into trouble doing so in a full ring game.

unless ur target is a very weak player.

i love how their is an *exact* way to play 99 here...

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by siknd

How many players at 18/9 have you seen 3bet AK preflop? or for that matter push over a reraise?

your point is valid. im only trying to highlight the vulnerability of the middle pairs. and by the way, i play a lot at pokerroom, so im NEVER surprised to see what ppl 3bet with...

ill take that point
I somehow knew you would say that about pokerroom

k, im going to get out of the way now, and let you guys back at your catfight... but you should probably know this... my dad could beat up your dad!! na na na nah na :P

im talking more so about the suited connectors than the 99. 99 i admit is not TERRIBLE. But suited connectors is laughable in the situation stated.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

gabe i play with many good players with deep stacks and win consistantly.

no you dont

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

my main criticism is doing it to an [tight]early position raiser. think about it. you have no advantage doing this. at least have the brains to do it to a late position raiser.

I concur.

bigboy you should lay off the personal comments and string posting and try to get your point off as peacefully as possible. This thread can only end in tears the way it's heading...

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I wish more players like miffed played in my games.

Im trying to decide if this is nice

My EP raises win a lot of blinds. More calls would be nice. Getting repopped more would be spectacular.

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

gabe i play with many good players with deep stacks and win consistantly.

no you dont

Perhaps he's more of a live player than online? Tell warfare and softer opposition could make up the difference.

He's an online player.

Bigboy, I love how you *know* how to play each and every hand in each and every situation. Sorry mate, but that's just not how poker works. You need to stop pestering miffed in every thread that he posts in, and actually post something of substance.

I think that most of the time, reraising a pair like 99 in this situation against a typical tagg is a bad play. However, the deeper the stacks, deception becomes way more important than actual hand values. "Floating" is in most cases a bad way to spew chips, but it adds an incredible amount of deception to your game if you know what you're doing. In many live games in which I play (where tells and table image become more important, plus having a book on most of the regular players) I've been known to float and take rather large pots from people who don't have the balls to stack off with just top pair. After a few plays like this (and maybe a shown AI bluff or two) I start pumping my sets etc AI. And lo and behold, I take a huge pot, and once again people start playing scared.

This isn't about playing laggy or whatever (although this type of playing is obviously better suited for short-handed and deep stacked). It's about playing poker: mixing it up, and telling a story in order to convince your opponent. Trying to convince him that you have a hand when all you have is air, or convincing him that you're bluffing for the third time in a row when in reality you flopped the nut straight.

I'm sure miffed can defend himself quite fine, but I felt like I needed to say this. I don't always agree with some of his points, but I usually learn something from his posts, which is the most important thing. Saying there is always an exact way to play a hand is arrogant, simple-minded, and it's something that a lot of donks do.

are all of bigboy's 250 posts in this thread?

bigboy you suck and will suck forever because you have no capacity to think about your game and learn.

I don't care if most players suck even more than you. You could not compete with better players and you know it.