Would I be better off at 2nl?

Hi

I started playing seriously online about 5 months ago. After the usual losses I educated myself etc, got my game together, and I've been playing 1, 2, 3 and 5 players microoo stakes SNGs since, with some success. At one point I had doubled my BR, but I then had a nasty downswing and I'm pretty much back to where I started. I'm now finding it pretty slow progress trying to grind out much of a profit from SNGs. As soon as I make some headway, variance seems to come around and I'm back to where I started. Indeed the only way I managed to make a decent profit was from winning 27 and 45 man SNGs, which is tricky.

Anyway, I'm posting this because I read somewhere that it's better for beginners to start out playing 2nl. Can anybody explain why this is? Is it known to be harder to consistently profit from SNGs as a beginner?

I've tried a little of 2nl 6 max and although I think the players were softer, I felt it didn't suit me as I prefer the structure that you get from a SNG. I also found myself tilted more easily from playing cash. Not sure why.

My main aim is to start to grind out a decent bankroll so I guess I'm asking what you guys think is the best way for a competent beginner to make money. Should I persevere with SNGs or give 2nl another go? Or both? And why?

Thanks very much, hope this wasn't too much of a ramble

You're better off wherever you make the most profit...
If you're not returning any profit at microstakes over a significant sample - that's not variance, that's suckage.
Work to reduce suckage -> profit

I'd just stick with one for the moment. I think sng strategy is overall easier, but has more swings. I fing ring games much more interesting, but that's personal preference.

I don't think I've played enough SNGs to make an informed judgement yet. I'd like to think that because in that time frame I have made money at times it's safe to put my downswing down to variance rather than suckage lol, especially as I feel confident in my A Game.

I've certainly made more money at MTT SNGs than anything else so I guess by your rational I should ride it out and stick to what I know and feel comfortable at...

Any other thoughts very much welcome...

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I don't think I've played enough SNGs to make an informed judgement yet. I'd like to think that because in that time frame I have made money at times it's safe to put my downswing down to variance rather than suckage lol, especially as I feel confident in my A Game.

I've certainly made more money at MTT SNGs than anything else so I guess by your rational I should ride it out and stick to what I know and feel comfortable at...

How about some stats? Stakes, SnG's played, bankroll, SnG's played at a time, placed, wins? It's sort of hard to offer advice without knowing these details.

Lots of micro players started in SnG's and/or MTT's, and some still swear the payoff is better there than cash on a limited bankroll. I play cash almost exclusively.

I can tell you this about cash. You can expect to win at least 5 ptBB/100 at every level up through 25nl - IF YOU'RE WORKING HARD ON POKER. Take 2nl, say 4 tables at once. At 6m that's 1k hands about every 3 hours. You should expect to make about one BI if you're winrate is 5 ptBB/100. So...$2 every 3 hours.

At 10nl, that's $10 every 3 hours.

One final thing that I think most noobies fail to realize. That 5 ptBB/100 is a nice winrate, but even when you're winning like that, you'll be down 2 - 3 BI's lots of days, sometimes because you suck and sometimes because you're coolered. You need to read about bankroll management whatever you do. It takes time to grind up a bankroll. And it's not a linear path.

Thanks for the great advice Robb.

I actually gave 2nl FR (as opposed to the 6 max I had been playing) a proper go today and was ASTOUNDED at some of the calls people were making. I was up 2 BIs within a couple of hours. It would have been more but I got sucked out on when a donkey called my AI with a lower 2 pair and caught his Full House on the river. Anyway, the standard of play felt very very easy, so I may have answered my own question....

a lot of the players i know who are beating 100NL right now started at 2NL fr. they experimented with SNG and MTTs later on, but cash games were their main focus.

i took the same route and i'm at 10NL right now. i do play SNGs for fun once in a while though

Sounds like a sensible approach, think I may make the switch.

That said, it might take a little adjustment as interestingly the standard seemed even lower than the micro stakes SNGs and I think there were a couple of spots where I was giving my opponents too much credit. For example I managed to fold Aces against two opponents on an 8 high board after I got called and then raised on fourth street. Was sure one of them had to have trips, so I was majorly tilted when I folded and they both flipped over K8 lol.

Still, felt good to comfortably make a profit.

You can grind up through the micros. Here are some suggestions for micro grinding:

1. Read the entire Beginner's Digest once a month for 3 months.
2. Practice sound Bankroll management (see quote below).
3. Avoid FPS (fancy play syndrome). They aren't bluffing down here, so making moves just traps your own self.
4. Bet your good hands, fold your bad ones. They will chase w/ crap and pay you off.
5. Post 3 - 5 HH's per week here in the Beginner's Circle, get advice on how to play, bet-sizing, etc. Don't just post bad beats. Post hands that had you confused DURING the play of the hand. Stop the action where you were (most) confused, and ask the regs what you ought to do.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

More great advice, thanks. I think my basic game is in good shape, thanks to FTR and Harrington. Hopefully I'll benefit from a steady grind instead of the potential swings you can suffer with MTTs.

speaking as as newbie here Robb , that post should be stickied as it gives a simple clear strategy to start from and then to work on from and the areas to studt and research initially.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

that post should be stickied

We could dedicate an entire forum to the stuff spoon writes that should be stickied. Seriously.

Go pull up his profile and surf through his 3000 posts. He isn't nice at time, especially when he's dealing with a noob about the same issue for the 3rd time, but he's one hell of a poker coach. Play how he tells you to play, read what he tells you to read, and you will be crushing the micros within 3 months.

seriously, when is spoon gonna get modship of bc? i mean come on!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

seriously, when is spoon gonna get modship of bc? i mean come on!

he has the modship of my heart <3

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

seriously, when is spoon gonna get modship of bc? i mean come on!

he has the modship of my heart <3

Be careful of your nose if Spoon turns a sharp corner.

So many of the "REGS" on here are unbelievable! I never imagined I would find a site that would be full of so many people who are willing to help others. It just shows how much they love the game of poker!!!

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

I'm following this but adding in an extra buyin or two so I have less of a chance of having to move down. there's nothing wrong with slightly nittier BRM

There is something wrong, and that's earning less. In fact, I'd say you should take shots at higher levels on the weekends when you're nearing the goal.

any reasons for suggesting the weekends ?i.e are there more fish about or people more likely to have been druinking etc.?

Much more fish, and especially fish who buy in and take half their deposit to stakes that are way over their head and go for double or nothing.
I have about twice my normal winrate at weekends.

I disagree with IOPQ here. The nittier bankroll folks at FTR are oddly the biggest winners long term. I took a couple of shots at 25nl with $600, a reasonable roll, but played weak-tight. I took a shot 5 weeks ago with $800, nittier than spoon's suggestion, and played extremely aggressively and well. When you're not scared money, you're gonna play better.

I think one of the biggest mistakes poker players make (here at FTR) is the "I'd make more if I were up on level, so I'll move up before I'm ready/rolled." You only make money at the next level up if you can win there.

that being said, don't be afraid to take shots if you feel your game is up to it. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because you have the minimum, you SHOULD take a shot.

Originally Posted by Robb

I disagree with IOPQ here. The nittier bankroll folks at FTR are oddly the biggest winners long term. I took a couple of shots at 25nl with $600, a reasonable roll, but played weak-tight. I took a shot 5 weeks ago with $800, nittier than spoon's suggestion, and played extremely aggressively and well. When you're not scared money, you're gonna play better.

I think one of the biggest mistakes poker players make (here at FTR) is the "I'd make more if I were up on level, so I'll move up before I'm ready/rolled." You only make money at the next level up if you can win there.

I played NL25 at $550 and I won enough to get to NL50. Just because some people use nitty BR management and win doesn't mean some people who use more aggressive BR management can't win.

At the risk of returning to the original topic, I've now given 2nl a proper go, 2 tabling FR. I can't believe I didn't do this sooner - the tables are incredibly soft and I'm yet to finished a session down - I'm usually up at least a BI or two. It really is amazing what people will call you down with.

Thanks for all the great advice posted on here, especially from Robb. From here I'm going to grind my way through the stakes and make the most use of FTR as possible to improve my game. See you at the tables guys.

Originally Posted by AFchung

there's nothing wrong with slightly nittier BRM

Originally Posted by iopq

There is something wrong, and that's earning less.

IOPQ, I disagreed with the above insistence that nitty bankroll management LOSES you money long term. Your more recent post seems to have backed off a bit to something like "people can use less nitty but still reasonable BRM and win," which is certainly true.

it does lose money in the long term because you end up spending more time at lower stakes
but you made a STRONGER statement that people with nittier BR management are MORE successful than people with riskier BR management

I'd say it's AT LEAST not true if both people use semi-reasonable BR management
but showing that very nitty BR management loses money will have to be done with a simulation or something

Originally Posted by iopq

it does lose money in the long term because you end up spending more time at lower stakes
but you made a STRONGER statement that people with nittier BR management are MORE successful than people with riskier BR management

I'd say it's AT LEAST not true if both people use semi-reasonable BR management
but showing that very nitty BR management loses money will have to be done with a simulation or something

You're being silly. A couple of BI's at 10nl are not even blips on the variance radar at 200nl. Using sound BRM at the lower limits builds the kind of discipline and focus that make for solid win rates at the higher levels, according to a host of successful FTR regs.

If we're talking about long term (say, a year or more), bankroll nits will nearly ALWAYS outperform the bankroll gambool types, almost by definition.

If we're talking about long term, reasonable BR management will ALWAYS outperform bankroll nittery. Where did I say bankroll gambool? I said a more aggressive BRM.


Say you always move up a buyin after I do and we run exactly the same.

I'll move up to NL5 at 100, you'll do the same at 102
I'll have 105 dollars when you have 102 (because you were playing at NL2 while I played at NL5)
then I'll move up to NL10 when I have 250, you'll have 247 and you'll move up at 260
I'll have 273 when you have 260
I'll move up to NL25 when I have 750 and you'll have 737
you'll move up at 775 when I already have 2.5 * 28 = 70 more than you


but if you move up 5 or 10 buyins after I do the difference is even greater

but the stronger the player you are, the more risky you can make your BR management because your chance of busting down is lesser

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

seriously, when is spoon gonna get modship of bc? i mean come on!

really useful posting that here, rilla!

Originally Posted by iopq

If we're talking about long term, reasonable BR management will ALWAYS outperform bankroll nittery. Where did I say bankroll gambool? I said a more aggressive BRM.

Moving up and building a roll is not a linear process. The less nitty you are with BRM, the more often variance will force you back down a limit. As the levels increase, typical win rates for even the top players decrease dramatically to the point where 20+ BI downswings are not atypical. Nittier BRM avoids more "forced move downs."

Poker is a game where we keep moving up UNTIL WE CAN'T BEAT IT ANY MORE, and then hang out there. Nittier BRM will allow folks more time at each higher, harder level to adjust and be able to beat it. At some point, the BR nits will keep moving up while those with less nitty requirements will start the yo-yo process up and down between a level they can barely beat and one they can't beat at all.

One or two BI at 10nl or 25nl is NOTHING in the long term, but it's all you seem capable of focusing on.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

At the risk of returning to the original topic, I've now given 2nl a proper go, 2 tabling FR. I can't believe I didn't do this sooner - the tables are incredibly soft and I'm yet to finished a session down - I'm usually up at least a BI or two. It really is amazing what people will call you down with.

Thanks for all the great advice posted on here, especially from Robb. From here I'm going to grind my way through the stakes and make the most use of FTR as possible to improve my game. See you at the tables guys.

GL - good to have another Londoner on here. FTR is by far the best place to make $.

Thanks mate

Yeah, MC, gl grinding up. Keep us posted on your progress - keep putting up some HH's and maybe start an operation thread.

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

seriously, when is spoon gonna get modship of bc? i mean come on!

really useful posting that here, rilla!

I find 1/2 reckless on some sites and tight on others. In general go to $5 for more consistent play. Weekends are ABSOLUTELY GOOD FISHING!!
Peace,
FLOW